Yamaha and THX ultra2

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Hello, I've got a few questions for anyone if you've got the time.

About the Yamaha

Does the RX-Z1's DSP modes also make use of all 8 channels? &nbsp;Gene's review seemed to test the DSP modes in a 7.1 config (front effects channels), but not in a &quot;8.1&quot;?? config. &nbsp;It mentions testing dts es and dd ex but didn't really specify if it was listening to the movies in DSP'ed mode or in the native format. &nbsp;I just want to know if the DSP modes will benefit from the added rear center channel or not?

In a THX Ultra receiver the latest snappy feature is the &quot;Auto Setup&quot; with the microphone (Pioneer comes to mind here). &nbsp;The term EQ tends to get tossed out a lot. &nbsp;Does a Ultra 2 processor actually contour the whole systems frequency response? &nbsp;Aka when it's all said and done you've got yourself a flat freqency response in your listening/viewing area? (available to all modes on the receiver)

Or does it simply set the delay and volume for each speaker automatically and then apply the THX DSP to it?


Lastly I'd like some opinions, I'm looking at doing a new system for _pure home theater_. &nbsp;I'm looking at the Denon 4802R or the RX-Z1. &nbsp;I could go Outlaw, but I've never been too fond of &quot;circus logic&quot; products. &nbsp;I like idea of the Yamaha for the DSP modes+front effects as I think it really could enhance the theater experience. &nbsp;

I'm doing this for a dedicated room with a front projector, and a set of DIY speakers from

http://www.rcmakustik.com/eng/rcm_rahmen.htm

The mains and center will present a 4 ohm @ 85db, and the surrounds will go 8 ohms @ 82db (a little pig-ish).

I'm going as &quot;all out&quot; as I can, but still stay in what I call (or think is) the &quot;smart zone&quot;. &nbsp;Any thoughts on where better value can be found are appreciated.

Rob</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Sound is a matter of personal perception and in this case, it is ultimately up to your ears. Having said that, for me, Yamaha's 8 speakers setup with my DSP-AZ1 does a very good job and the lure of THX wasnt enough to convince me from investing in it over the Yamaha.

The quad field DSP modes for cinema in the AZ-1 does a mighty convincing job for me.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Yes I too agree with the listen to your own ears approach. &nbsp;We all hear things a bit differently, and have our likes and dislikes. &nbsp;That kind of stuff is impossible to measure, but everyone tries really hard to do it (enter piss poor poetry).

What we can measure is the acoustic source, and do it with extreme accuracy, and then extrapolate on our own preferences from that.

I have run around and done the &quot;sound tests&quot;, but I find, In all honesty that this approach is absolutely useless. &nbsp;The first problem I found is that I can never seem to find a RX-Z1 setup properly, (or at least as per Yamaha's specs).

Next, what are the chances that each vendor is using the same room size with the same flooring, the same ceiling, the same cabling (I'm not concerned about audio jewelry, but I am concerned about audio junk) and above all the same speakers. &nbsp;One system might sound poor due to vibrations in the ceiling tiles, another because the speakers are of a poor quality.

I could do it in my own home, but ....

Not a lot of vendors like people &quot;auditioning&quot; gear in the price range I'm looking at. &nbsp;ANY vendor also will get quite annoyed about you dragging 6 different setups home over a period of 4 weeks (can't say that I would blame them). &nbsp;So really you can't get a good subjective review in your own home either. &nbsp;

Which is pointless for me right now as I'm still building the room itself. &nbsp;I'm just looking for thoughts and ideas.

Why should I have to audition it in the first place? &nbsp;Should not all manufacturers be able to provide a nice analysis (lots o' pretty graphs) of a units performance based on standard room and configuration, ahh yes to dream the dream. &nbsp;But I guess that's why we all come to review sites in the first place.

Not to take away from my original post, &nbsp;I'm still looking for thoughts on my planned configuration and the goods on THX being the real deal for the home or not. &nbsp;

Rob</font>

 

[Khellandros66]

<font color='#000000'>As for Yamaha goes, I only have the RX-V1300 and it is astounding for Cinema.  That said, I would go with no other brand of receiver or pre pro for the rest of my life.  I love this thing, the DSP modes are fantastic in 5.1, and I would love to have the Z1, or 3300.  The FE Channels make a huge difference too.  I have heard the 3300 at the local dealer on a Definitive system, consisting of BP2002s, CLR3000, BPX (L/R Sides) and a pair of Studio Monitor 350s for the front effects, and almost all DSP info in the front came from the 350 speakers.  The 3300 blew away the Denon 5803 as far as decoding goes , but not quite so in power ouput, but the 4802r and Z1/3300 are all close in power capabilities.

Bob ~</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The 3300 blew away the Denon 5803 as far as decoding goes , but not quite so in power ouput, </td></tr></table>

I am floored by your statement, especially since I spent over 6 months with the fabulous RX-Z1 (Yamaha's flagship) and it does NOT &quot;Blow away&quot; the Denon 5803 with respect to pure DD/DTS decoding. &nbsp;However, I do feel the Yamaha products DSP modes are far more useful and flexible. &nbsp;As far as processors go, I have yet to find a better performer, or more flexible one than the 5803 for the price. &nbsp;Its like getting a state of the art processor with a free amp section. &nbsp;Stay tuned for my review...</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>So the good old THX standards do win the day in the for the best movie experience?

I know I'm generalizing here.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Gene, &nbsp;rumor has it the Pioneer TX49 is a better processor (better price too), which kinda touches on my original post 'bout the EQ and such.

Looking foraward to the 5803 review tho.

Sorry for the two posts
Rob</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Actually I prefer the 5803 in non THX mode. &nbsp;THX rolls off the highs too much for my tastes. &nbsp;As for the Pioneer being a better processor, its not, nor is the amp section. &nbsp;I have looked at both of them carefully before choosing to write a review on the Denon first. &nbsp;I wanted to pick what I felt to be the most state of the art receiver on the market to face it off against separates. &nbsp;IMO, even though the 5803 is well regarded, I feel it is underrated. &nbsp;I am hoping to bring this to light in my review, if I ever get around to writing it &nbsp;

</font>

 

[Khellandros66]

<font color='#000000'>Gene~

I never meant that the 5803 was totally inferior, but so much as for the money, the RX-Z1 definitely is better, of course I would take 5803 in a heartbeat, but since I might not have that kind of money to shell out, in the future that is, that the flagship Yamaha RX-Z1 is the better buy for the money. &nbsp;I mean come on, 32bit Floating Point DSP plus two 44bit DSPs, plus not mention ten Burr-Brown PCM1704 192kHz/24bit DACs! They both have 100MHz component video switching and just about the same amount of inputs too. &nbsp;The amp, yes is weaker compared to the Denon, but is more than enough for most people, and if I would want more power I would add the Yamaha MX-1 for the Main L/R. Then redirect the FE channels to the Main amps like you did for your review. &nbsp;Not mention the fact that Yamaha’s very foundations rest on the fact they first started off producing instruments! &nbsp;I never heard of Denon making a flute, or a violin, let alone some of the nicest pianos I have heard.

In short in MY opinion Denon is superior in DTS/Dolby due to the fact that is a very good cinema receiver, but when it came to music and all around sound Yamaha took the first place trophy. Not just to me but also my father, my brother (who really doesn’t show much interest in HT), and my friend.

Yamaha History

http://www.global.yamaha.com/about/17_history.html

:0~</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

Khellandros66 : <font color='#000000'>Not mention the fact that Yamaha’s very foundations rest on the fact they first started off producing instruments!  I never heard of Denon making a flute, or a violin, let alone some of the nicest pianos I have heard.</font>

<font color='#008080'>While this is true... Just to keep things in perspective it's important to note that Yamaha's musical instrument division has nothing to do with their Home Audio department... or their motorcycle division for that matter. Other than a great marketing angle, that is!

It's a large company and I am not aware of any real development collaboration going on (currently) between the two divisions.

I love Yamaha receivers, but comparing a 3300 to the 5803 is comparing a #2 receiver to their flagship. You can like the Yamaha DSP more, but the quality and value are in completely different &quot;ball fields&quot;.

Once Gene does his review of the Denon, you'll be able (at the very least) to compare his Z1 review with the 5803 review and see what Gene thinks in his subjective ratings...

All this is not to say your opinion is wrong, but I have the RX-V3000 (which I feel is quite comparable to the 3300) and I wouldn't hold it equivalent to either the Z1 or the 5803.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Bob;

Having both units in my reference system makes it easy to compare. &nbsp;The Yamaha RX-Z1 is an awesome receiver, probably the best for under $3K out there. &nbsp;However, IMO, it is not in the same league as the Denon AVR-5803 and shouldn't be given the difference of retail price between the two.

FYI, the Denon AVR-5803 has dual differential Burr Brown 1738E DAC's, and it quads them in two channel! &nbsp;No other receiver, and most processors have this type of high performance DAC arrangement. &nbsp;In fact, initial research shows me that you have to spend nearly $6K or more on a Levinson to get near this digital architecture.

FYI, The Denon AVR-5803 uses dual hammerhead SHARC's which are some of the most powerful on the market! &nbsp;

The Yamaha RX-Z1 has superior DSP modes, but IMO, thats it. &nbsp;Its 90Hz crossover is a big limitation that the 5803 doesn't have and may affect many set-up environments.

In my experience so far, I have never heard a more musical receiver for DVD-A/SACD especially, then the Denon. &nbsp;Its noise floor is second to none, Redbook CD sounds unbelievable in pure direct (quad dual diff dac mode).

It really has me scratching my head pondering if I should dump my separates for a receiver?

Stay tuned for my complete review...</font>

 

[Khellandros66]

<font color='#000000'>Gene~

I personally would dump the separates if I were you.  I don't know why but I never cared for Klipagon, much rather have McIntosh, but thats me.  I also contacted the local dealer where heard the receiver to make sure I had my info straight. It wasn't the 5803 it was however a 5800 (they look so similar) and didn't have the upgrade board either.  I was wrong and I admit it.

:0~

Bob</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Bob;

Thanks for the update. &nbsp;The 5800 definately has a different digital section than the 5803. &nbsp;IMO, its worth the upgrade if Denon still offers it. &nbsp;I already dumped my Klipagon Soundstage after hearing the 5803. &nbsp;However, my old pre-klipsch 8008 amps are awesome, tons of power, very low noise. &nbsp;The reality is, in my room, given the moderate sensitivity of my speakers and my listening conditions, I never really take advantage of the extra oomph that my separate 8008's amps offer over those in the 5803.

BTW, The RXZ1 is a great receiver and if you prefer it over the 5803, you are certainly NOT wrong. &nbsp;After all it is what makes you happy in the end thats important. &nbsp;I personally loved the Yamaha RAV2000 remote and feel it blows away Denons 8000 remote. &nbsp;MY major bief with the RXZ1 was the 90Hz crossover setting and not being able to independently select bass recombination for two vs multi channel modes. &nbsp;Oh well, maybe we will see that in the RX-Z2

</font>

 

[Khellandros66]

<font color='#000000'>Gene~

I would love to see a RX-Z2 and here's what I would love to see it have/do;

Dual 32/64bit Float DSPs (DTS on one and Dolby on the other) plus the Dual 44bit DSPs

Dual 192kH/24bit DACs (two per channel, it would make 18 in all)

Stereo Sub Outs and 40,60,90,120Hz for bass management that is customizable for each surround mode and input.

150w RMS All Ch Driven x 7 0.012% THD 8ohms 20Hz-20kHz
plus for the FE Ch 60w RMS x 2 0.04% THD 8ohms 20Hz-20kHz

Dual 35,000uf Capacitors, and 15lbs+ Transformer

4 HD-Component In 2 out (1GHz bandwidth)
all Composite and S-Video (100MHz)

Gold Plated everything.

AES/EBU In

7 Coaxial and 4 Optical Inputs

2 DVI in, 1 out

Video Upconversion composite-&gt;S-&gt;Component-&gt;DVI

If they made this it would obviously cost more than the 5803 if not close to it.

~

Bob</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Bob;

Your wish list basically describes the Denon AVR-5803

BTW, there is no need to do DD/DTS on different chips. &nbsp;Why do you wish this?

As for 150wpc x7 all channels drive, no receiver can do this based on their physical limitations. &nbsp;The Denon AVR-5803 and B&amp;K AVR507 are perhaps the closest at doing this based on their power supplies and output devices. &nbsp;I guesstimate the AVR-5803 can deliver about 115-125wpc all channels driven assuming the line voltage is held constant. &nbsp;The RXZ1 does about 100wpc or so. &nbsp;Not much of a difference here to be honest. &nbsp;Also, like the Denon AVR-5803, the RX-Z1 drives reasonably efficient 4ohm speaker loads with NO PROBLEM. &nbsp;Both receiver have excellent noise floors, state of the art decoding, flexability of use and configuration. &nbsp;Great stuff. &nbsp;IMO, receivers have come a long way!</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>About the 5803,

chant mode engaged

POST THE REVIEW
POST THE REVIEW
POST THE REVIEW</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>sorry about the dual posts yet again

Does the 5803 have something like the Spectacle DSP mode? (which seemed to sound pretty dam cool even in the poorest setup room)</font>

 

[Khellandros66]

<font color='#000000'>Gene~

&quot;BTW, there is no need to do DD/DTS on different chips.  Why do you wish this?&quot;

My reason is that if each only uses a small percentage of its true capabilies (due to the fact that no medium use anything near what the DSP can really do). It opens up door to future upgrades and more powerful Dolby and DTS, plus it also guarautees that the purist DTS and Dolby signal is decoded and sent tot the DACs and the to the volume and so on.

~

Bob</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

hawke : <table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote (Khellandros66 @ July 01 2003,22:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not mention the fact that Yamaha’s very foundations rest on the fact they first started off producing instruments!  I never heard of Denon making a flute, or a violin, let alone some of the nicest pianos I have heard.

While this is true... Just to keep things in perspective it's important to note that Yamaha's musical instrument division has nothing to do with their Home Audio department... or their motorcycle division for that matter. Other than a great marketing angle, that is!</td></tr></table>
If you take a look here

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/lsi/us/products/audio.html

You can see that Yamaha LSI makes processors for everything Yamaha (go figure).  To keep costs down I'm sure the enginering teams would share any applicable process or knowledge of value.

How much this might translate into better consumer grade audio gear I can't really say.

Cool, the video group made their own OSD chip, neat'o.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>On the subject of wattage, I had recently asked an engineer from Yamaha Japan and his take was that if they were to incorporate their HCA circuit, class A amp, the receiver/amp would end up costing around $5500 and would weigh close to 160lb, quite impractical if we are to see both the pricing as well as dimesions but nonetheless it would be stuff of dreams and vreat for music as well as movies.

</font>