WPC rating changes fro 1978 -1990

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Fomoco69

Junior Audioholic
Hello music lovers....just wondering if companies like Denon, Pioneer...etc changed there rating standards on there recievers & amps up until early 90s...personally I don't own or would not buy anything after 91-92
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Hello music lovers....just wondering if companies like Denon, Pioneer...etc changed there rating standards on there recievers & amps up until early 90s...personally I don't own or would not buy anything after 91-92
Then you wouldn't be able to enjoy any modern AV features such as full HD or 4K video, nor full surround DTS Master Audio soundtracks.

Performance of modern AVRs in the 21st century are way better than they were in the in the 20th. For example, recently released Denon AVRs have lower distortion figures as well as better SNR values than their earlier released products.

Just read recent reviews on this site and at Audiosciencereview.com.
 
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N

noway

Enthusiast
Of course they did. What we have now is the equivalent of "go faster stripes". Most people don't even know the difference. It's not just the specific WPC ratings, it's the whole power rating statement that has changed and when it is not a complete statement it is being fudged. Here's an example of how the statement was defined circa late 70s/early 80s. Everything in the statement needs to be included for it to be valid. You cannot specify one parameter on its own meaningfully.

Example of an honest power rating statement:

100 watts per channel, both channels simultaneously driven, into 8 ohm speakers, from 20Hz-20kHz at less than than 0.05%THD at rated power

The above is an example of the 1975 FTC ruling for power rating. It had to be phrased like this or the power output specification needed to be omitted altogether.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
With the FTC ruling, the power and THD ratings were calculated with an 8 ohm resistor, although a loudspeaker driver's impedance varies with frequency.

Nowadays, ratings are still calculated with a fixed resistance load. Although most manufacturers don't publish the full specs as per the previous FTC rules, we are however privileged to have access to detailed reviews and tests by serious magazines such as AH and also ASR reports, for most of the important available products.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Of course they did. What we have now is the equivalent of "go faster stripes". Most people don't even know the difference. It's not just the specific WPC ratings, it's the whole power rating statement that has changed and when it is not a complete statement it is being fudged. Here's an example of how the statement was defined circa late 70s/early 80s. Everything in the statement needs to be included for it to be valid. You cannot specify one parameter on its own meaningfully.

Example of an honest power rating statement:

100 watts per channel, both channels simultaneously driven, into 8 ohm speakers, from 20Hz-20kHz at less than than 0.05%THD at rated power

The above is an example of the 1975 FTC ruling for power rating. It had to be phrased like this or the power output specification needed to be omitted altogether.
Then again back then the amps were only 2ch.

A fairly recent article here https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/ftc-consumer-audio
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
And strangely, all hifi amps are more powerful than what the great majority of people need.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Today's amplifiers are more powerful than they were 60-70 years ago. The main reason is that most of today's speakers are quite less sensitive than the drivers of the older era. Another factor is the extended dynamic range of digital recordings.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Same as your car. You can have however much power you want, it is just going to cost you. Are your speakers from the 90s too then? I think you may have missed the boat there. You can use your 90s amps with "new fangled" speakers that have benefitted from decades of improvements in speaker design.

Not sure what the point of the post is? While things were definitely good back then, I would not say from an audio perspective that they were better.
 
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McC

McC

Audioholic Intern
Perhaps what the OP is referring to is the power specification at 1k often being promoted. My BIL asked for my assistance several years ago in selecting a receiver. I was surprised to find the power ratings were all given at 1k into a single channel. I steered him away from those receivers and to something that provided 20Hz to 20kHz @8 Ohms specifications.

The Pioneer SX-10AE provides these specs on its website:

100 W/ch (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, THD 0.08 %, 2ch Driven FTC)
210 W/ch (6 ohms, 1 kHz, THD 10 %, 1ch Driven)

The retailers (and manufacturers), know that in the mind of the average consumer, the bigger number gets the sale. Making it difficult (as it was then) to find the full specifications is misleading (at best) to the consumer. Perhaps this is what the OP was referring to.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
There is usually a 1K rating, but also a 20-20K rating, and if they are vastly different, then there's an issue. The more concerning rating is a big fat number for the whole AVR which really doesn't give you enough detail and makes even a low power AVR look like it has plenty.
 
McC

McC

Audioholic Intern
During the outing with my BIL a 20-20k rating was nowhere to be found. It was not on the promotional flyers, store tags, the box, or anywhere else to be found. It's about deceptive marketing to an often uninformed public.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
In store that does not surprise me, but not on the box means exactly what you said, to prevent comparison and to confuse those who don't know what to look for. I would usually look at the vendor website, which should definitely have it, for a product I was considering.
 
McC

McC

Audioholic Intern
You and I might, but the general public would have no idea.

Edit: Remember, store flyers are often provided by the manufacturer to aid them in selling their products. They both know what they're doing.

I usually see the Total Peak Power rating you mention above used in the car stereo market, but would not be surprised to see it in the home marketplace as well.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You and I might, but the general public would have no idea.

Edit: Remember, store flyers are often provided by the manufacturer to aid them in selling their products. They both know what they're doing.

I usually see the Total Peak Power rating you mention above used in the car stereo market, but would not be surprised to see it in the home marketplace as well.
PMPO ratings are even more fun!
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
PMPO ratings are even more fun!
On their own their usually snake oil... but in conjunction with proper FTC specs, they do provide an indication of peak capabilities - which are relevant...

Headroom is good! - just don't mistake the headroom available for a few milliseconds, with the available continuous power!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
On their own their usually snake oil... but in conjunction with proper FTC specs, they do provide an indication of peak capabilities - which are relevant...

Headroom is good! - just don't mistake the headroom available for a few milliseconds, with the available continuous power!
"Headroom", in audio amps is another confusing spec, like "power consumption". Almost meaningless on it's own without all the caveat.

One of my favorite on this topic is found in Anthem's FAQ:

How much headroom do your amps have?
Careful - headroom numbers are usually misleading. A smaller figure is better here because headroom should really be called "how much does the power supply sag while stressed for more than a fraction of a second".
That, in itself, seems to make it even more confusing??:D Yes one needs to be an engineer as a minimum qualification to interpret audio specs correctly (okay I am kidding, but...)
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Ninja
My 2012 HK 3490 2 channel receiver has better specs (more power better frequency response less distortion) than most of the 70 80 and 90 receivers and separates that I used to own. Still going strong. :) No idea about the 2020 and later units.
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
My 2012 HK 3490 2 channel receiver has better specs (more power better frequency response less distortion) than most of the 70 80 and 90 receivers and separates that I used to own. Still going strong. :) No idea about the 2020 and later units.
HK used to make some great receivers.... the last of which was the 7600 / 7550....

Now, sadly, it is a lifestyle brand alongside B&O - both of which are owned by Samsung I believe!

In the competition for who makes and sells AVR's and AVP's in the family, Arcam got the gong, and Lexicon as well as HK are of merely historical interest now. :(
 
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