Will my Denon AVRX4500H be able to handle this set up

[tenerifepaul]

2 x Klipsch RF7 111 Walnut floor standing speakers
1x Klipsch RC -65 111 centre speaker
2 x Klipsch R 100SW sub-woofer
2 x Kef Cil60QR ceiling speakers for Atmos,
4x TBA Back and Surround ceiling

6 x ceiling as floorspace not practical for free standing and no walls for wall mounting

Two questions
1. Final four directional ceiling speakers?
2. Do I need a power amp

This is simply for Home Theatre run through Apple tv. No turntable, blue ray etc.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Unless you’re trying to hit reference level, the 4500 should be fine. You can also omit the “atmos” speakers since they will be useless for the application as all the surround speakers will be in the ceiling. That will lighten the load even though it’s light. Maybe use the money from the Atmos speakers to upgrade the subwoofer.

 

[Eppie]

I concur. A proper ATMOS setup needs the bed layer (fronts and side / back surrounds) at ear level. Having everything in ceiling will not yield proper results for ATMOS so those two speakers can be skipped. If this is a new install, maybe run some wires to the ATMOS location in case things change down the road.

People often underestimate the difference that good subwoofers can make. The R-100SW may still be available but the latest iteration is the R-101SW. The spec sheet rates that sub only down to 30Hz. The RF 7-III is rated down to 32Hz so those little subwoofers add almost nothing! If you run the front speakers full range the subwoofers are literally a waste of money.

If this is for home theatre you want to target a sub that gets closer to 20Hz in the frequency response. As suggested above, add the cost of the ATMOS to your budget and look for better subs that will dig deeper than your tower speakers. Two are preferred to give you smoother bass response throughout the room, but those towers go pretty deep already and I would lean towards one really good sub over two weaker performers. If budget doesn't allow two better subs you can always add a second one in the future.

 

[lovinthehd]

The 4500 has 9 ch of amp so can do what you want, but as mentioned for Atmos by the others for bed layer not being in ceiling. Whether the amps are sufficient for your spl levels and distance from the speakers could be another matter. How far away from speakers will you be and what spl levels? I'd also want better subs fwiw.

 

[-Jim-]

I'll join the choir here and say there's no point in 6 in-ceiling speakers without at least 2 rear /surround speakers at ear level. You are wasting your money. Just go to 3.2 up front and add a pair or 2 of Atmos in-ceiling.

I don't understand why "Decorators" take precedence over sound when a Home Theater System is in play. Build your system to as close to Dolby Spec as possible for best results. Too much WAF I suspect...

 

[tenerifepaul]

I have no problem with replacing the sub(s)...any suggestions? I'm no expert but what I cant work out is how just two ceiling atmos, the towers and centre will provide an immersive feel. Surely effective directional ceiling backs and surrounds can't detract from the experience? We curently have a blank canvas as the space is being completely renovated, decorators are not taking any preference. The living room is a about 40m² (5.5x7), with just a couple of pillars to the dining 17m² and kitchen 20m²...We are a good 3.5 m from the towers and maybe 3m to the centre speaker. Its a pretty minimalistic space, with a lot of hard surfaces, no carpets, drapes etc...so its bassy. I am up for anything and I know I won't get better advice than here, so everything is welcome.

 

[Eppie]

I have used both in-ceiing and ear level surrounds in my space and the ear level surrounds are more immersive, but I am with those that feel that in-ceiling surrounds are better than no surrounds at all. It did add to the experience for me, but that's a personal opinion. Others will recommend no surrounds when they can not be placed properly.

I would disagree, though, on going 3.2 and adding a pair or two of ATMOS speakers. That would give you the proper positioning for the ATMOS speakers, which should be overhead, but there is much more content in the surround channels than the ATMOS channels. That could depend, though, on the content you are watching. The Dolby upmixer also adds to the equation as that will feed some content to the ceiling speakers. Directional speakers, as you mentioned, will help, so if you decide on in-ceiling surrounds using speakers aimed at the main seating position will work better than down firing unless they are close by.

Some people post floor plans or photos and that can aid in members recommending placement options.

Lots of options for subwoofers. If you want to stick with Klipsch, I would recommend stepping up to the Reference Premier line with a quick take here. Even the 10" RP-1000SW will go down to 20Hz although my recommendation would be the 12" RP-1200SW. These have slotted ports which make the cabinets a little smaller than typical ported subs. (Ported will perform better than sealed.) You mention kitchen and dining areas so if this is an open concept space then you will likely need more from the subwoofer than you anticipate as the volume of the space is a factor. Placing the sub closer to the seating position can help make up for that.

SVS and Arendal have free returns on their speakers and both make capable subs that are well rated on this site. For something more cost effective, the RSL Speedwoofer 12S reviewed well, and Monoprice's Monolith subwoofers are price/performance leaders.

 

[lovinthehd]

Where are you located? That will probably be key for sub recommendations, especially if you're on Tenerife I'd think....

I'd like to see the room if possible for placement ideas for speakers, tho.

 

[tenerifepaul]

I used to be in Tenerife but now I am in the UAE ...we can get most tech here that is available in the States.
The work is in progress. View 1 is looking in from kitchen area. View 2 looking in from entrance. View 3 looking in from dining area. What walls we had have been removed. The...living, kitchen and dining will be one open space with two small pillars....not an acoustic dream.
The seating will be in the middle of the living area set back approx 4.3 m.
My idea was to have the towers close to the corners of the media wall forward from the wall , angled in...the two subs next to them at either side. The back directional ceiling speakers slightly wide behind the seating area...the surrounds at either side of seating area, with the Atmos directly above seating area. I have zone 2 outside speakers. I have contemplated a power amp for the towers...but I think that could be excessive.
I fully appreciate that ceiling mounted surrounds and backs are no replacement for ear level speakers, but wall mounting is not practical and I don't want speakers sitting in the middle of the room...(acoustically great but far from practical ) Its a compromise, not one I relish but it is what it is.
In its previous incarnation this room was set up as in the 4th photo (plus 1 extra sub and two ATMOS above the seating area), the two wide towers in cubbies, two subs and the centre in the centre cubby, two atmos above and two back B&W behind against the wall. The sound was compromised in many ways but it did sound pretty good, especially for home theatre. The ATMOS were effective but the B&W's at the back didnt add much.
Without the cubbies, I know the sound will improve...so I am simply looking to make the best of the rest.
I'm not looking to waste money but since I am already shelling out for a major refurb cost is not the dominant factor.

 

[-Jim-]

We are not trying to put you down here, but without near ear level surrounds, the whole sound "envelope" you are trying to create gets severely messed up putting surrounds in the ceiling.

How about a pair of in-wall surrounds? Without a diagram with dimensions and seating positions, we're guessing here, but if it's like the photo of the old set-up, one of the in-walls would go between where the right B&W was and the passageway opening. The other would be straight (?) across to the left of the Glass folding door opening.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[tenerifepaul]

OK Jim advice taken, I had channels cut in those two walls so I can mount surrounds at ear level. Thats that dealt with. Now I guess, I add ceiling Atmos and rear?
The remaining question would be would a power amp for the towers be worth it?

 

[Eppie]

OK Jim advice taken, I had channels cut in those two walls so I can mount surrounds at ear level. Thats that dealt with. Now I guess, I add ceiling Atmos and rear?
The remaining question would be would a power amp for the towers be worth it?

I would not mix in-wall surrounds with in-ceiling rears. The side surrounds tend to get more content and if they are placed slightly behind the seating position they can simulate rear effects. In-ceiling rears will interfere with the ATMOS speakers. My recommendation would be side surrounds behind the seating area and then you can go with 4 ATMOS speakers. The Kef Cil60QR appear to be down-firing. Some recent videos I have watched suggest using ceiling speaker with angled baffles so that they point at the main seating position. Main reason is that the frequency response changes off angle relative to where you are seated.

The Klipsch towers have a very high sensitivity of 100dB @ 2.83V / 1M which means that they take less power to reach the same volume level as lower sensitivity speakers. I think the space looks small enough for the 125W/ch to be sufficient. If it's a big concern, try and leave enough space in your rack or shelving unit to add a 3-channel amp later for the fronts. If you like it loud, leave plenty of ventilation for the receiver and think about adding a cooling fan to move air through the unit.

 

[-Jim-]

I suggest you review Dolby Atmos Home Installation Guide before you cut holes in the ceiling for those speakers. Creating the proper sound field is all about speaker placement relative to seating positions, and sound processor / HT receiver setup. If side or rear surrounds - in wall or stand alone - overpower the rear Atmos in-ceiling pair then the setup spatial relationship is incorrect. However, the amount of material sent to Atmos speakers is typically far less that the surrounds. (At least that's been my experience.) Depending on room size & seating position, a single pair of Atmos speakers may suffice.

We really need to see a sketch with dimensions of the room and locations of all the HT gear, including the TV, seating, etc. Like @Eppie I'd start with the Denon and migrate to something else to drive the fronts if required.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[tenerifepaul]

Once the space is set up, I will illustrate, but it will be as recommended with no backs and two atmos over the seating. Questions in the meantime.
Now I have the wiring in place I am thinking of using my existing B&W FPM 4'S as my surrounds, at ear level just behind our seating position . I know in their day (over 25 years ago) they were pretty good, but compared to some of the better ones out there today? I am considering a couple of KEF LS50. I expect they will be an improvement , but will it really be that noticeable for Home Cinema
I have 2 x Klipsch R 100SW sub-woofer . I know they are not the best, but what would I gain from one good 12 inch sub for example the Q Acoustics Q B12. The 12 inch will go lower but once again, in quite a bassy room will it be that noticeable.
With a lot of hard surface I am considering using accoutic material on the media wall...same question as above applies.
Just thinking of options.

 

[-Jim-]

Hopefully you've reviewed the Dolby Atmos guide I linked to previously. Without dimensions I suggest you follow this 5.1.2 diagram (Sub placement should be done on it's own) to get the angles as close as possible. Notice how the Atmos pair are located just forward for the main seating position, and not behind it. (This will lessen the surrounds interfering with them and help create the complete sound field.)

See page 27 in the Guide.

I'd suggest you try your existing B&W FPM 4'S and Subs in the correct layout before jumping to purchase new gear (including panels). You'll gain a better understanding of what's needed to make you happy when you've listen to the system for a while after it's setup.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Just have a second here but wanted to touch on the subwoofer question.
As far as the Klipsch. You’re right, they’re entry level and only have a listed response of 32hz. The Qacoustics is listed at 28. However it’s sealed and its output in those frequencies will be less than the Klipsch. You also have two Klipsch and should theoretically help to smooth bass response in the room. They are also ported and imo you wouldn’t gain anything from the Qacoustics. Depending on budget, a pair of RSL 10’s would be a nice upgrade, or better yet their 12s. HSU has a nice new subwoofer too. And if you really want some fun, something in the 18-21” range from PSA or Rythmik will make your day. Maybe not your wallets day though lol.
Many many options.

 

[Kleinst]

I

Just have a second here but wanted to touch on the subwoofer question.
As far as the Klipsch. You’re right, they’re entry level and only have a listed response of 32hz. The Qacoustics is listed at 28. However it’s sealed and its output in those frequencies will be less than the Klipsch. You also have two Klipsch and should theoretically help to smooth bass response in the room. They are also ported and imo you wouldn’t gain anything from the Qacoustics. Depending on budget, a pair of RSL 10’s would be a nice upgrade, or better yet their 12s. HSU has a nice new subwoofer too. And if you really want some fun, something in the 18-21” range from PSA or Rythmik will make your day. Maybe not your wallets day though lol.
Many many options.

I second the Rythmik FV18 recommendation I have a pair with RF7iii's and they work very well together.

But is that a living room area? Perhaps those might be too big. They are a little taller but not too deep.

 

[tenerifepaul]

Hopefully you've reviewed the Dolby Atmos guide I linked to previously. Without dimensions I suggest you follow this 5.1.2 diagram (Sub placement should be done on it's own) to get the angles as close as possible. Notice how the Atmos pair are located just forward for the main seating position, and not behind it. (This will lessen the surrounds interfering with them and help create the complete sound field.)

View attachment 69827
See page 27 in the Guide.

I'd suggest you try your existing B&W FPM 4'S and Subs in the correct layout before jumping to purchase new gear (including panels). You'll gain a better understanding of what's needed to make you happy when you've listen to the system for a while after it's setup.

I hope this is helpful.

Very helpful thanks. I am going with the Figure 11. set up my surround backs are a little bit wider placed because thats where the columns are. I'll try the B&W's and see...I have never made the best of those as previously they were set up just as rear speakers.. With the ATMOS recommended placement and without the cubbies, I expect improvement on what was already pretty decent sound for our puposes. I have provison in place for any further changes down the line if required.

 

[tenerifepaul]

OK so we finally finished the renovation.
The set up is pretty much as the 5.1.2 diagram but with two subs. The back speakers, which are just behind and wide of the seating position are KEF LS 50 Metas in white, which are great, but predictably overpower the ATMOS ceiling speakers . Now that the speakers are out of the cubbies and calibrated for the room the sound is better, but as I suspected we have two issues.
Firstly the room is hard and the sound has become very bassy. I can probably deal with that, but any advice would be good.
The second (which will not go down well with the audiophiles) is that aethetically everything would look better in white. I have buyers for all my equipment, so thats not an issue. There are plenty of decent quality white speakers out there, SVS, KEF etc. The problem is the amp.
The only company that I am aware currently do a white amp is JVC with their new MA series. Very pretty with a simple interface but I very much doubt they would compare favourably with my Denon, and I don't really want to compromise on the sound.
I dont mind going with silver, both Denon and Pioneer do them, but I guess there is other stuff out there. I doesnt need to do a lot, other than power the speakers.

 

[-Jim-]

OK so we finally finished the renovation.
The set up is pretty much as the 5.1.2 diagram but with two subs. The back speakers, which are just behind and wide of the seating position are KEF LS 50 Metas in white, which are great, but predictably overpower the ATMOS ceiling speakers . Now that the speakers are out of the cubbies and calibrated for the room the sound is better, but as I suspected we have two issues.
Firstly the room is hard and the sound has become very bassy. I can probably deal with that, but any advice would be good.
The second (which will not go down well with the audiophiles) is that aethetically everything would look better in white. I have buyers for all my equipment, so thats not an issue. There are plenty of decent quality white speakers out there, SVS, KEF etc. The problem is the amp.
The only company that I am aware currently do a white amp is JVC with their new MA series. Very pretty with a simple interface but I very much doubt they would compare favourably with my Denon, and I don't really want to compromise on the sound.
I dont mind going with silver, both Denon and Pioneer do them, but I guess there is other stuff out there. I doesnt need to do a lot, other than power the speakers.

View attachment 71897

Glad to see your project is just about done. I know how Renos seem to drag on and on. I'm impressed with how good it looks just the way it is. I'd probably put something under the front of the center speaker to angle it up to point towards the ears of those seated on the couch. I'm not keen on white speakers / receivers but each to their own.

I'd much prefer a Denon receiver over Pioneer if you go to silver. Your Sub setup / calibration is probably the source of the bass woes. What receiver do you have now? What Fronts (KEFs?) are you looking at if they are going to be white?

These White RSL Speedwoofer 12s could be a great fit.

So could a couple of their Speedwoofer 10S MKII (They come with color matching grills!)