Will My AVR Be Sufficient To Drive These Speakers Loud?

V

VMPS-TIII

Audioholic General
For music listening, I kept the volume the same and listened to a variety of genres (rock, metal, jazz, classical, hip-hop, etc) in 2.2 stereo. Max SPL in this scenario measured 125 dB (complaints from my ears would seem to agree with this). The only distortion I noticed came in a single hip-hop track, but I'm guessing it's the result of the track itself and it may not have been a great quality rip to begin with. My ears seemed to be struggling much more than the speakers were, and I took breaks in between the louder tracks so that there wasn't a sustained bombardment on my long-term hearing.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, were I to hook up something along the lines of a 3 channel amp like the Monolith 3X200, should I expect to hear any differences at or approaching these volume levels? Or would my experience be pretty much the same?
If you are listening at 120dB for any length of time it won't be long before you damage your hearing and won't need this system as your ears will be in constant pain...

If the music and movies sound good to you now then a Monolith 3X200 won't make a lot of difference. When I added the Monolith 7X200 the audio was a little crisper than with the Denon 4700. Mostly, what I noticed was the heat of the Denon receiver was reduced.

I would suggest this $20 fan for the Denon. It does a great job.
 
M

mj30250

Audioholic Intern
Listening at around 120 dB sustained is not a common practice at all - this was basically a torture test for the equipment. For music especially, each high-volume session lasted under a minute - as fun as it sounded, no way would I sit back on the couch and enjoy those conditions over any great length of time.

As for those fans, yes, I have those exactly on top of the AVR. I checked it both after the HT and music testing, and the top of the case above the heat sink was barely warm.
 
L

Leemix

Audioholic General
It seems like your setup works just fine without extra amplification. And do be careful with your ears, even very short intervals at those levels are damaging.
The phone mic isnt good at low frequencies especially so there might be a sizeable discrepancy.
Music is often mastered to max levels so they dont have any room to increase = much louder than movies average. And so much music have crap sound quality including clipping in the recording.


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H

Homer Theater

Audiophyte
4 Ohm speakers need more current than 8 Ohm speakers. Asian-brand AVRs have the WORST amplifiers for delivering current due to power supply limitations. They just DO NOT have power supplies capable of delivering the current you need for 4 Ohm speakers. Unless the AVR is made by Anthem, AudioControl, McIntosh, or some other company that does NOT follow typical Asian AVR amplifier designs, the AVR just CAN'T seriously drive 4 Ohm speakers.

Decades ago I sold some 150-pound Infinity speakers to a guy who was absolutely CONVINCED his "200 watt" Denon AVR was going to be FINE when he powered up the speakers for parties. I told him he was going to blow up the tweeters if he did that, and sure enough... 6 months later he calls to ask if I have the store receipt and warranty registration. And I told him "no" because the warranty doesn't cover blowing up tweeters by using inappropriate amplification for those speakers.

Some AVRs SAY they support 4 Ohm speakers. But when you select their 4 Ohm setting, all they do is insert an extra 4 Ohm resistor in series with the speaker to raise the impedance and reduce the voltage the speaker gets. If you send 10 amps to a speaker that's 4 Ohms with a series 4 Ohm resistor, you get 5 watts of power at the speaker and 5 watts of heat output from the resistor. So using a 4 Ohm setting in an AVR essentially cuts amplifier power IN HALF so you lose 3 dB of maximum playback output--and trying to get that volume back will mean turning up the volume control and that will mean exceeding the current capacity of the amps in the AVR. Once you do that, you begin sending pulsing DC to the speaker. Those DC pulses are absorbed fairly easily by midrange drivers and woofers. But tweeters get hotter and hotter until they melt-down catastrophically.

Standalone amps will deliver all the current the 4 Ohm speakers need. You don't need to spend a TON on an amp either. AudioControl's amps, for example, are not particularly expensive, but they provide strong driving power and great sound. AudioControl sells only through installers/integrators, so you may not find the products in typical retail outlets, but you can still purchase the amps even if you aren't having an entire system installed. Many installers/integrators have showrooms you can visit or will do mail order. You can get a medium-power AVR with full-feature digital front end and perhaps somewhat wimpy amps and use that as a preamp-processor and use an AudioControl amp (close to $2000 for 4 channels, and close to $3000 for 7 channels) to drive 4 Ohm speakers. So you could get a circa $1000 AVR and a $3000 AudioControl amp (all new) and have far better sound than you could get from a $4500 top-of-the-line Asian AVR. (if you search Amazon for AudioControl, you will find Car Audio components, one of their other market areas, I think their web site will tell you the nearest dealers via your zip code.

Bottom line... if you have to use 4 Ohm speakers, either don't play them particularly loudly when using an AVR. 90 dB might be OK which is pretty loud for movies. But you SPECIFICALLY said "reference level"... have you ever HEARD "reference level"? I personally CANNOT listen to an entire movie at "reference level", it's just too loud. So if you "relax" your requirement for "reference level" you may be able to make-do with an AVR, but an AVR definitely will NOT drive 4 Ohm speakers to full "reference level" in any decent-sized room for more than a 5 minutes or so without the tweeters melting-down. Actual REAL "reference level" requires nearly 4 times the amplifier power (and lots and lots of current when using 4 Ohm speakers) to achieve compared to 90 dB (C-weighting, Slow response measurement modes). So if you are using all the current a 100 wpc AVR produces at 90 dB playback levels, you'd need that same AVR amp to be able to produce 400 watts per channel WITH much more current than the amps can deliver at 100 watts to reach "reference level." That's why people burn up tweeters. When clipping starts, it chops the tops on all the peaks flat... those flat spots are DC. As the sound gets louder, more and more peaks are chopped off and more and more DC is fed to the speakers. Even amps that are capacitor coupled to block DC in their outputs can't stop this TYPE of DC caused by the current limitations of the amp.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
They just DO NOT have power supplies capable of delivering the current you need for 4 Ohm speakers. Unless the AVR is made by Anthem, AudioControl, McIntosh, or some other company that does NOT follow typical Asian AVR amplifier designs, the AVR just CAN'T seriously drive 4 Ohm speakers.
Anyone can say anything on the internet so I won't go point by point but would just highlight one example of what you claimed, that in order to have credibility, would need some back up info such as specifications and bench measurements.

First of all, full disclosure, since I am using your claim about the "Anthem AVR", and "Asian AVR".., I have recommended Anthem (amplifiers only so far) products many times, and own one myself. So can you name one or two Anthem AVRs that are rated 4 Ohms, without using such tricks you mentioned and/or conditional on the use of some sort of selector switch or setting?

Then please back it up with the size of the power supply, and/or bench measurements that show it actually could output into 4 Ohms more than say a Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, or other "Asian AVR" (Pioneer, Onkyo etc.) can at say no more than 0.1%/-60 dB THD+N? You might also want to compare such an Anthem AVR's bench test results (output into 4 Ohms, 1,2,5, or more channels driven simultaneously) with that of the likes of the Denon AVR-5308CI, 5805, Marantz SR8015, Yamaha RX-A3060, 3080 or the lower models such as the 3808CI, X6700H, Marantz SR6014, Yamaha RX-A2080 (any RX-A2000 series). For comparison, as far as I know the MRX-1120 is Anthem's most powerful AVR they have ever sold, and they have different rated output for the surround/height channels, that's a new trick, one that I thought actually makes sense none the less..
 
M

mj30250

Audioholic Intern
Bottom line... if you have to use 4 Ohm speakers, either don't play them particularly loudly when using an AVR. 90 dB might be OK which is pretty loud for movies. But you SPECIFICALLY said "reference level"... have you ever HEARD "reference level"? I personally CANNOT listen to an entire movie at "reference level", it's just too loud. So if you "relax" your requirement for "reference level" you may be able to make-do with an AVR, but an AVR definitely will NOT drive 4 Ohm speakers to full "reference level" in any decent-sized room for more than a 5 minutes or so without the tweeters melting-down. Actual REAL "reference level" requires nearly 4 times the amplifier power (and lots and lots of current when using 4 Ohm speakers) to achieve compared to 90 dB (C-weighting, Slow response measurement modes). So if you are using all the current a 100 wpc AVR produces at 90 dB playback levels, you'd need that same AVR amp to be able to produce 400 watts per channel WITH much more current than the amps can deliver at 100 watts to reach "reference level." That's why people burn up tweeters. When clipping starts, it chops the tops on all the peaks flat... those flat spots are DC. As the sound gets louder, more and more peaks are chopped off and more and more DC is fed to the speakers. Even amps that are capacitor coupled to block DC in their outputs can't stop this TYPE of DC caused by the current limitations of the amp.
"Reference level" in my case means that I've targeted "0" on the AVR volume dial to = 105 dB mains and 115 dB LFE, which is the definition of reference level for a theater environment. I'm far from an audio calibration expert, so likely my measurements are not precise nor is my room anywhere remotely approaching acoustically ideal, but I've at least attempted to get into the ballpark.

As far as watching an entire movie with the volume at "0", that is often content dependent. For example, most Disney UHD Blu-rays tend to run at a lower volume level than many other studios' discs. I can spin up a Marvel or Star Wars film, leave the volume at 0, and it rarely if ever gets uncomfortable. Were I to do the same for, say, Blade Runner 2049, I'd likely be typing this through a painful case of tinnitus.

Music tends to run louder than movies, and I'd agree that listening to audio tracks in 2.2 with the volume at 0 is pretty much unbearable, and I only did that on a temporary basis during some torture testing as I indicated above. Depending on the particular album, anywhere between an AVR volume setting of -10 and -3 to my ears is ideal for those times when I'm in the mood for loud and impactful without seriously accelerating hearing loss.

So, based on my uses as well as the above testing, I'd say that my "Asian" AVR is doing just fine with the 4 ohm front stage. If in 6 months I'm gathering up the charred remnants of my folded-ribbon tweeters, I'll be back to eat crow. :)
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So, based on my uses as well as the above testing, I'd say that my "Asian" AVR is doing just fine with the 4 ohm front stage. If in 6 months I'm gathering up the charred remnants of my folded-ribbon tweeters, I'll be back to eat crow. :)
If you look at facts, your "Asian AVR" definitely would do better with your 4 Ohms speakers than the non Asian one he cited as one of his examples.:)

Below are the Anthem MRX flag ship AVR vs the little brother of your X4500H, that is the X3500H.
ASR use dB in one and % in the other, but you can compare using a conversion table.
At 100 mW, or 0.1W, the Anthem's THD+N was about -54 dB or 0.22% vs the Denon's 0.025%.
At 151 W (clipping point), the Anthem did -75.9 dB, or 0.016% vs the Denon, at 159 W, 0.007%.

And again, the Anthem is more likely to (it depends) have trouble driving the surround/height channels if those are 4 ohm speakers because only 5 out of the 11 internal amps are rated 140 W, the other 6 are rated 60 W 8 ohms.

So ignore hearsay, look at the specs and test results and you'll be the judge.;)
You do have a fan or two to help cool your Denon though right?

Below are from audiosciencereview.com

1608564004988.png


1608564143767.png
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Besides, Anthem avrs are asian made, aren't they? I see made in Vietnam on the rear panel on a photo I just checked.....
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Besides, Anthem avrs are asian made, aren't they? I see made in Vietnam on the rear panel on a photo I just checked.....
And here I thought they were from Canukistan! :oops: :p ;)

Watch out! I hear the Orange one is now looking into dropping tariffs on imports from Vietnam. :rolleyes:
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
And here I thought they were from Canukistan! :oops: :p ;)

Watch out! I hear the Orange one is now looking into dropping tariffs on imports from Vietnam. :rolleyes:
Did they raise tariffs previously on Vietnam? I'm so glad I don't know the answer off the top of my head these days :)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Did they raise tariffs previously on Vietnam? I'm so glad I don't know the answer off the top of my head these days :)
Sorry, no. Dropping was slang for initiating. You know, like a new album "drops," instead of being released. :)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Sorry, no. Dropping was slang for initiating. You know, like a new album "drops," instead of being released. :)
Ah, didn't think of it that way. I was thinking we pretty much have no tariffs via trade programs with Vietnam.....
 
V

VMPS-TIII

Audioholic General
Ah, didn't think of it that way. I was thinking we pretty much have no tariffs via trade programs with Vietnam.....
Trump is planning Vietnam tariffs according to news. Something about currency manipulation. :p
 
Truthslayer

Truthslayer

Full Audioholic
Besides, Anthem avrs are asian made, aren't they? I see made in Vietnam on the rear panel on a photo I just checked.....
I thought they were made in Canada, but to be sure. This is taken directly from Audioholics article.
Anthem Releases New 7 CH, 11 CH, & 15 CH AVM A/V Processors and MRX Receivers | Audioholics

Audiophiles with impeccable tastes know the quality of Anthem products to be first rate. All their products are hand crafted in Canada to some of the highest quality measures in the audio industry. Audioholic's President Gene DellaSala did a full review of Anthem's STR Preamp and Power Amplifier and said that, "the STR preamp is perhaps one of the most flexible and diverse two-channel preamplifiers I've ever seen. It offers state-of-the-art performance in every mode of operation handling analog and digital sources with equal ease".
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I thought they were made in Canada, but to be sure. This is taken directly from Audioholics article.
Anthem Releases New 7 CH, 11 CH, & 15 CH AVM A/V Processors and MRX Receivers | Audioholics

Audiophiles with impeccable tastes know the quality of Anthem products to be first rate. All their products are hand crafted in Canada to some of the highest quality measures in the audio industry. Audioholic's President Gene DellaSala did a full review of Anthem's STR Preamp and Power Amplifier and said that, "the STR preamp is perhaps one of the most flexible and diverse two-channel preamplifiers I've ever seen. It offers state-of-the-art performance in every mode of operation handling analog and digital sources with equal ease".
I was only referring to the avrs, as was being discussed and looking at the required country of origin markings, and it was on their flagship 1120, too. I know some of their other gear they still do in Canada, tho.
 
Truthslayer

Truthslayer

Full Audioholic
I was only referring to the avrs, as was being discussed and looking at the required country of origin markings, and it was on their flagship 1120, too. I know some of their other gear they still do in Canada, tho.
It's quite possible some of their AVR's are made outside of Canada. I just always thought all their products were made in Canada, but nowadays it wouldn't be surprising if they weren't. At least i know my Anthem amps were made in Canada. Regardless, they make fine, reliable products. Just wish they were lower cost, but can't have it all.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It's quite possible some of their AVR's are made outside of Canada. I just always thought all their products were made in Canada, but nowadays it wouldn't be surprising if they weren't. At least i know my Anthem amps were made in Canada. Regardless, they make fine, reliable products. Just wish they were lower cost, but can't have it all.
Probably why they had to make the avrs in china/vietnam....to compete with the other avrs....and you still pay a premium for what does not appear to be anything more than another typical avr that can be had for less (except for their proprietary room eq....and while that seems to be competent, nothing particularly unusual).
 
H

Homer Theater

Audiophyte
Anyone can say anything on the internet so I won't go point by point but would just highlight one example of what you claimed, that in order to have credibility, would need some back up info such as specifications and bench measurements.

First of all, full disclosure, since I am using your claim about the "Anthem AVR", and "Asian AVR".., I have recommended Anthem (amplifiers only so far) products many times, and own one myself. So can you name one or two Anthem AVRs that are rated 4 Ohms, without using such tricks you mentioned and/or conditional on the use of some sort of selector switch or setting?

Then please back it up with the size of the power supply, and/or bench measurements that show it actually could output into 4 Ohms more than say a Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, or other "Asian AVR" (Pioneer, Onkyo etc.) can at say no more than 0.1%/-60 dB THD+N? You might also want to compare such an Anthem AVR's bench test results (output into 4 Ohms, 1,2,5, or more channels driven simultaneously) with that of the likes of the Denon AVR-5308CI, 5805, Marantz SR8015, Yamaha RX-A3060, 3080 or the lower models such as the 3808CI, X6700H, Marantz SR6014, Yamaha RX-A2080 (any RX-A2000 series). For comparison, as far as I know the MRX-1120 is Anthem's most powerful AVR they have ever sold, and they have different rated output for the surround/height channels, that's a new trick, one that I thought actually makes sense none the less..
I used a Denon 5308... in the mid-2000s, it was here for several years actually. It was a horrible-sounding piece of crap when it came to the amplifier section. It was SO OBVIOUSLY terrible sounding compared to using its line-level outputs into any decent standalone amp(s) NOBODY could have missed it. And that was with 8-Ohm speakers. 4-Ohm speakers were made to sound dark, muffled, & gray, with high frequencies that lacked life. I currently have a Denon X8500H here (from the last model year, 2019 introduction I think, a $4000 AVR and it is INCAPABLE of revealing the full performance of ANY loudspeaker, but 4-Ohm speakers really suffer. Do you realize that "4-Ohms" doesn't mean any given 4-Ohm speaker has a linear impedance of 4-Ohms over the entire audio frequency range? Almost all 4-Ohm speakers have impedance dips that go down to 2 Ohms in one to three places in the frequency spectrum. This affects just part of the frequency range, but more current is demanded in those parts of the frequency spectrum. Do you understand that amplifier circuits do not deliver power continuously? They can't/don't produce any power at all until the instantaneous AC Power Line voltage is higher than the power supply voltage rails in the amp? If the amp's power supply voltage is 90 volts, when the AC power line is below 90 volts, the amp circuit produces NO power. The amp can only DELIVER power during parts of the AC power waveform with voltages from 90.1 volts to 172 volts (about what AC peak voltages are for nominal 117 VAC power). When the power line sine wave is in the range of 0-90 volts (or 0 to minus90 volts) the amplifier power supply stores power in the power supply capacitors. The amplifier begins producing power as the instantaneous sine wave voltage goes above 90 volts. When that happens, current RUSHES-IN to the amp at close to DOUBLE the rated current consumption. Amplifiers draw current at about DOUBLE their current rating (when driven to full power) for half of the AC Power sine wave and they create ZERO power for about half of any given AC power sine-wave cycle. When you look at the CURRENT going into an amplifier on a 'scope, you see more or less a square wave that is modulated by the music signal across the "tops" of the square waves. There are also Asian companies who make AVRs for customers who DESIGN THEIR OWN AVR either from scratch or by modifying a "stock" AVR design and having that modified AVR be sold under their potentially non-Asian brand. Asian-manufacture doesn't automatically make an AVR "Asian-brand" for purposes of my responses, because the AVR design could be English, Canadian, US, French, German and simply be BUILT over there to reduce costs. Some of those Asian factories cater to customer-designed products from the circuits to the appearance and features. Asian-designed AVRs work best with 8-Ohm speakers, and are useful with most 6-Ohm speakers. I have used top-line and mid-line AVRs from StormAudio, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Integra, Sony, Anthem, AudioControl, Arcam, Cambridge, NAD, Rotel, Outlaw, Pioneer, & Yamaha. And that list is just from the last 10 years, I've been doing this a long time. Current is king for 4-Ohm speakers and Asian-brand AVRs aren't concerned with current in AVRs to support 4-Ohm speakers. Period. That said, AFTER the Denon 5308, somewhere around 2010 or 2011, something happened to Asian-brand AVRs... the AMPLIFIER sections got MUCH BETTER SOUNDING, I mean night and day better-sounding. But they were still good only for 6 and 8 Ohm speakers. A NAD AVR rated at 80 watts delivered much more current to a 4-Ohm speaker than a Denon 140 w/ch AVR and the NAD AVR sounded better than the Asian-brand AVR by an obvious amount on those 4-Ohm speakers. I don't remember if the NAD AVR was made in China or not, but WHERE it was made isn't the issue, it is the DESIGN of the AVR's amp section that makes all the difference. Asian-brand "watts" are MEANINGLESS when it comes to speakers that need more current than 8 or 6 ohm speakers because the Asian brands aren't designed to deliver the current. They are only designed to TOLERATE 4-Ohm speakers without damaging the AVR. Once the current demand on the amp exceeds the amp's ability to DELIVER current to the speaker, clipping begins in the voltage domain and that clipping presents pulsating DC to the tweeters causing them to get hot... if exposed long enough, the tweeter will fail from the heat. How long is "long enough" -- I'd guess 15 seconds to 2 minutes depending on the severity of the clipping. But I've never blown up tweeters with an AVR so not sure. I have observed clipping in the analog waveform going to the speakers when using an oscilloscope, so I can always find the point where an AVR begins to give up on current pretty easily. And Asian-brands (not Asian-manufacture, but Asian-brands) are very clearly not delivering as much current as Anthem, AudioControl, NAD, Rotel, StormAudio (AVR now discontinued... it was $14,000-ish), Cambridge, or Arcam.

Indeed, people can say anything they want online. Some of us happen to know what we're talking about--I know it's rare. But I'm one of the ones who "know things" because of my background in engineering (mechanical, video, electrical, computer, and power supply), high-end audio, and home theater (I took my engineering interests and applied them to home audio and theater that turned into a hobby and a second profession). I worked on the film scanning equipment used in some of the first digital remasters of classic movies like "Snow White"... not running the equipment, but designing and testing it and leaning over image scientists' shoulders while scanned images were examined almost microscopically. Also worked on digital cinema and 3D devices for medical, oil exploration, outer space use, and other critical 3-D applications. I designed and tested power supplies and insured they met EMI/RF emission standards world-wide (which get pretty weird, and very specific). No way for you to know that, of course. Not sure how else to explain how I know what I know.
 
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T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Maybe you could explain it better if you could just “Open Your Mind!”
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