Will My AVR Be Sufficient To Drive These Speakers Loud?

[VMPS-TIII]

If you value your hearing keep it under 90dB.

If your hearing is already gone then welcome to ringing even when the receiver is off.

 

[mj30250]

You'd consider them quite small?

The T2+ towers are 42-11/16” high x 12-3/16” wide x 12-1/4” deep with a 5-1/4" mid driver and 2x 8" woofers
The Polks are 43-5/8" high x 11"W wide x 15-1/4" deep with a 6-1/2" mid driver and 2x 7" woofers

The C2+ is a lot wider than the Polk center, a little taller and not quite as deep.

 

[mj30250]

From the measurements I could see that they did dip below 4 Ohms at some points. Using 80 Hz crossover should help, again, the users should use an online calculator to fine the limitations. Or just get a 500 W rated power amp and have no worry except don't go crazy on the volume dial.

Could you share the measurements that you have? Thanks.

 

[Leemix]

You'd consider them quite small?

The T2+ towers are 42-11/16” high x 12-3/16” wide x 12-1/4” deep with a 5-1/4" mid driver and 2x 8" woofers
The Polks are 43-5/8" high x 11"W wide x 15-1/4" deep with a 6-1/2" mid driver and 2x 7" woofers

The C2+ is a lot wider than the Polk center, a little taller and not quite as deep.

Lol, sorry, mixed this thread with another for that answer. Your speakers arent small, but the speakers in the other thread only had a single 5 inch woofer.


Edit: well, they should be set as small though


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[VMPS-TIII]

Could you share the measurements that you have? Thanks.

Here's the calulator:

Peak SPL Calculator

myhometheater.homestead.com

If you use 90dB and 72% power on the Denon 4500 = 90 watts per channel. At 10 feet away with 5 speakers you will reach 106.8dB. That's much louder than most will want.

 

[mj30250]

Lol, sorry, mixed this thread with another for that answer. Your speakers arent small, but the speakers in the other thread only had a single 5 inch woofer.


Edit: well, they should be set as small though


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Haha, no worries. I figured something got mixed up. By all accounts the T2+ should be a nice upgrade over the RTi 10s - not that they have been poor performers by any stretch, but I'm ready for a different sound.

 

[mj30250]

Here's the calulator:

Peak SPL Calculator

myhometheater.homestead.com

If you use 90dB and 72% power on the Denon 4500 = 90 watts per channel. At 10 feet away with 5 speakers you will reach 106.8dB. That's much louder than most will want.

Sorry, I was asking about the impedance measurements that Peng mentioned. Your numbers ultimately jive which with what I found as well, which I'm happy with. I definitely would not listen at over 100 dB sustained - no way. But it would be nice to have the headroom for occasional peaks in the 100-105 dB range when a movie or music track gets temporarily crazy, and it sounds like I would. Thanks!

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Emotiva Airmotiv T2, electrical impedance (solid) and phase (dashed) (2 ohms/vertical div.).

 

[PENG]

Sorry, I was asking about the impedance measurements that Peng mentioned. Your numbers ultimately jive which with what I found as well, which I'm happy with. I definitely would not listen at over 100 dB sustained - no way. But it would be nice to have the headroom for occasional peaks in the 100-105 dB range when a movie or music track gets temporarily crazy, and it sounds like I would. Thanks!

From the graph VMPS just posted, you can see that at about 78 Hz, the impedance would be about 5 Ohms, and phase angle -50 degrees (approx.). From 90 Hz and up it got much better. So if used with subwoofers, with XO set to 90 Hz your AVR will have much easier time driving those speakers.

Still, assuming you used the calculator correctly (such as by de-rating the speaker sensitivity by 3 dB to allow for 4 Ohms), you only need 50 W to get 105 dB SPL, then I would say the AVR is adequate for the job.

Just to be on the safe side, please put at least one 120 mm Infinity USB fan on top of the AVR-X4500H. Or don't aim for 105 dB spl, but something like 95 dB spl. That should probably mean volume at around -10 to -15, just my educated guess. Crossover set to 90 Hz would be good for your speakers/AVR-X4500H. Just because the towers can play low, doesn't mean you should let them, if you have good subwoofers.

 

[mj30250]

Thanks. So the T2s do measure down to 4 ohm and even below 3 for a small bit. It looks like the most difficult part is just under 80Hz, so the powered subs should definitely help. I wonder if the T2+s would be any different. It sounds like the biggest changes made were cosmetic, but apparently they reworked some of the internals as well.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Computers & Accessories

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Computers & Accessories

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You will want to use these fans on the Denon 4500. Whether you are playing 60dB or 90dB they will certainly help with cooling.

 

[mj30250]

Yes, I do have those exact fans along with the thermal probe so that my aging brain doesn't have to remember to turn them on and off. They seem to work great with my current setup.

 

[mj30250]

So I received the T2+ towers and C2+ center and plugged them up. I have not gone through any setup whatsoever with them yet, so they are still using my Polk RTi 10s' settings. From an AVR perspective, I got them going very loud for several minutes, both in full range 2 channel (the towers) and multi-channel (5.2) - absolutely no audible signs of distortion or clipping and the receiver stayed very, very cool with the Infinity fans running. I'll definitely put them through some additional testing as time allows just to be fully confident that I'm not missing out on any obvious performance gains that an amp might provide.

Initial thoughts in comparison are that the folded ribbon tweeters sound great - they're very forward without being remotely harsh, and offer a lot of detail while staying fairly smooth. I'm a fan. There's no comparison in LFE performance versus the Polks. The T2+ towers are far better down low in every way. The VTF-3 MK5 subs aren't exactly getting nervous, but I'm more impressed with low bass performance than I thought I'd be.

Right now I only feel that they are lacking in the mid-bass region. There's not as much definition as I'm accustomed to and they are much more laid back than the Polks in this area. I'm sure this will improve once things are measured and adjusted.

One other aspect of their performance that is both a plus and a minus is the soundstage - it's huge. The RTi 10s' sweet spot was much more narrow and focused and their volume dropped off drastically as you moved beyond the listening area. The T2+s sound loud everywhere, including one floor up where my wife generally sits. The latter point is decidedly NOT good, haha. Any tips on how to potentially limit the soundstage without sacrificing anything at and near MLP?

Thanks.

 

[PENG]

So I received the T2+ towers and C2+ center and plugged them up. I have not gone through any setup whatsoever with them yet, so they are still using my Polk RTi 10s' settings. From an AVR perspective, I got them going very loud for several minutes, both in full range 2 channel (the towers) and multi-channel (5.2) - absolutely no audible signs of distortion or clipping and the receiver stayed very, very cool with the Infinity fans running. I'll definitely put them through some additional testing as time allows just to be fully confident that I'm not missing out on any obvious performance gains that an amp might provide.

Initial thoughts in comparison are that the folded ribbon tweeters sound great - they're very forward without being remotely harsh, and offer a lot of detail while staying fairly smooth. I'm a fan. There's no comparison in LFE performance versus the Polks. The T2+ towers are far better down low in every way. The VTF-3 MK5 subs aren't exactly getting nervous, but I'm more impressed with low bass performance than I thought I'd be.

Right now I only feel that they are lacking in the mid-bass region. There's not as much definition as I'm accustomed to and they are much more laid back than the Polks in this area. I'm sure this will improve once things are measured and adjusted.

One other aspect of their performance that is both a plus and a minus is the soundstage - it's huge. The RTi 10s' sweet spot was much more narrow and focused and their volume dropped off drastically as you moved beyond the listening area. The T2+s sound loud everywhere, including one floor up where my wife generally sits. The latter point is decidedly NOT good, haha. Any tips on how to potentially limit the soundstage without sacrificing anything at and near MLP?

Thanks.

Are you listening with Audyssey on? If you did, you should try turning if off until you re-run Audyssey. Also, it takes a while to get use to a different sound signature.

I never heard much difference between amps but I found it easier to hear the difference between speakers, especially something like the RTi10 Vs the T2. When you are ready to listen with Audyssey on, try diabling the MRC, you may hear a difference.

 

[mj30250]

No Audyssey yet - I should have made that clear, sorry. I did use it with the Polks so my statement that I was using the same settings wasn't completely accurate. I should have said same settings (distances, levels, crossovers, etc) but with Audyssey off.

 

[Leemix]

The sound should change some after the auto setup and you might just be running them louder than the polks were if higher sensitivity.


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[mj30250]

They are definitely louder than the Polks at the same AVR volume, but even when dropping the volume by a good portion they still reach much further into the house. I certainly need to run them through Audyssey and tweak from there. It'll probably be another day or two before I can really sit down and get it done.

 

[Leemix]

They are definitely louder than the Polks at the same AVR volume, but even when dropping the volume by a good portion they still reach much further into the house. I certainly need to run them through Audyssey and tweak from there. It'll probably be another day or two before I can really sit down and get it done.

If they dig a lot deeper than old speakers it will travel much more through the house.


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[mj30250]

So I finally ran everything though Audyssey and then tweaked. As far as trims, it set the FL and FR speakers to -7.0 and the center to -6.5. I later took the speakers through a torture test of sorts, selecting the battle scene from the early section of Master and Commander. I used a sound meter app from my cell phone, which I imagine isn't all that precise, but with the X4500H at a volume of 0 it registered a maximum SPL of 109dB during the scene at MLP (most readings were under 90). As for my completely unscientific observations, I did not notice any audible signs of clipping. As far as distortion, I heard nothing obvious, but with the crazy variety of explosive sounds that hit during this scene, it's hard to be certain. I definitely didn't hear anything that made me think that the speakers were overloaded or even straining. External temps for the AVR (taken just above the heat sink) stayed under 90F.

I had expected a slightly higher maximum SPL level with the receiver volume at 0, but clearly my measurement method was fairly poor, and perhaps a different scene / another film would have hit more loudly. Given all of this, would I be correct in thinking that offloading the front three speakers to an external amp (such as the Monolith 3X200) would be a waste?

I think I'm still slightly FOMOing over all of the reviewer statements that "these speakers need a big dedicated amp!".

 

[mj30250]

Apologies for bumping my own post, but I figured I'd add some more details as I've had a chance to throw a variety of material at this setup now at high volumes. Equipment reminder below:

Denon X4500H
2x Emotiva T2+ towers
Emotiva C2+ center
2x Polk FXi A4 surrounds
2x HSU VTF-3 MK5 subs
Speakers crossed at 80Hz

For HT listening, I spun up a variety of scenes, including the aforementioned Master and Commander battle, various loud moments from the 4K Blu-rays of The Lord of the Rings, Saving Private Ryan, Gladiator, and others. With the AVR volume set to 0, SPL during the loud parts often ranged between 88 and 100 dB, with a max of 119 dB. This was measured from a cell phone app at the MLP, so the numbers are likely not super precise. I did not notice any audible distortion or clipping at all.

For music listening, I kept the volume the same and listened to a variety of genres (rock, metal, jazz, classical, hip-hop, etc) in 2.2 stereo. Max SPL in this scenario measured 125 dB (complaints from my ears would seem to agree with this). The only distortion I noticed came in a single hip-hop track, but I'm guessing it's the result of the track itself and it may not have been a great quality rip to begin with. My ears seemed to be struggling much more than the speakers were, and I took breaks in between the louder tracks so that there wasn't a sustained bombardment on my long-term hearing.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, were I to hook up something along the lines of a 3 channel amp like the Monolith 3X200, should I expect to hear any differences at or approaching these volume levels? Or would my experience be pretty much the same?