Why the left is against economic growth

R

RedCharles

Audioholic

"Many, particularly on the environmental Left, go even further and advocate “de-growth,” essentially urging societies to consciously reduce their economic wealth. This agenda requires that energy, housing, food, and other consumption costs steadily increase, or be legally prohibited, so that ordinary people will be unable to eat meat regularly, use more energy, live in larger spaces, and travel freely."

And I should mention that the writer, Joel Kotkin, is your garden variety liberal. Article is well written and free from histrionics.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord

"Many, particularly on the environmental Left, go even further and advocate “de-growth,” essentially urging societies to consciously reduce their economic wealth. This agenda requires that energy, housing, food, and other consumption costs steadily increase, or be legally prohibited, so that ordinary people will be unable to eat meat regularly, use more energy, live in larger spaces, and travel freely."

And I should mention that the writer, Joel Kotkin, is your garden variety liberal. Article is well written and free from histrionics.
Yes, the left are becoming increasingly dangerous and rabid, they are the vanguard of the "new puritans."

Fortunately they got a really good pasting in the recent UK election, with Corbyn and the left wing fascists of Momentum really got their deserts. Now it looks as if they want to replace Jeez Corbyn with Rebecca Wrong - Daily and hopefully consign themselves to the dustbin of history.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
It's simple. A poor economy enables the position that the people cannot be trusted to handle it, so it must be taken over by the govt. It is their Socialist agenda.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
In that same vein, I heard an interesting explanation of why liberals are against religion. If there is no God, then the inalienable rights bestowed by our Creator in our Constitution, are null and void. That gives govt the authority to define ALL our rights.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Chief
In that same vein, I heard an interesting explanation of why liberals are against religion. If there is no God, then the inalienable rights bestowed by our Creator in our Constitution, are null and void. That gives govt the authority to define ALL our rights.
I'm not sure who is the dumbest here: The one giving the "explanation " or the one believing it.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The environmental lobby in the US has always been anti-growth. What they haven't had until recently is a perceived global emergency to rally the believers around a single objective and enlist more supporters. Global warming, or now climate change as the New Green Deal believers want to call it, has provided that perceived emergency. And, even better for gaining support, there's a doomsday timeline: 12 years until the world as we know it ends.

It is unfortunate that the term environmentalist has been hijacked by those with political and power agendas, much like the term audiophile has been hijacked by those in our hobby who believe in pseudoscience. Personally, I'm not willing to give up these terms; I consider myself a environmentalist and an audiophile, even though I don't like vinyl, tube amps, believe in magical cables, or single-ended anything, and I do believe in protecting the environment as much as practical given the technology of the times. Given the rate of decline of the US contribution to carbon emissions over time due to economics and technological advancement, I suspect some enhancements to current environmental laws would show quicker and far cheaper results than the New Green Deal, which will have huge costs and an uncertain timeline. And the most inconvenient truth to US environmentalists of all (pun intended) is that the future of carbon emissions on the planet will be determined almost solely by China, India, and Africa. It's just the math.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Part of my problem with the hard core greenies is that they want to force the US to stop emitting greenhouse gases when we have already reduced that by so much and they completely avoid mentioning the places you included as if they don't want to make those people sad. It's well past time to get in the faces of the real polluters. Why should we suffer just because it makes people (some voters) feel good about their vote and their candidates? Screw that! If we're gonna get serious about this, we'll have to hurt some feelings.

The fact is, the US could completely stop emitting greenhouse gases and the atmosphere wouldn't reverse itself unless the rain forests are allowed to stay and they stop animal grazing in order to plant new trees.

Oh, and if we could only get volcanos to go dormant.....
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Guys, as a leftist, I have to admit: this is all true. We do want to destroy the economy. A system built on monetary exchange could never be fair, so we must burn the whole edifice to the ground. For too long, man has been alienated from the fruits of his labor; the result of which is the corrupt house of cards that is modern civilization. People need to return to an authentic living where they are directly rewarded by their work, and this means a return to widespread agricultural living. Only a few administrators (such as myself) should be exempt from the most honest work a man can do; farming. But not farming on his own land, since personal property begets greed, but on communal property so that all work is equitably rewarded. In being closer to nature, man will gain wisdom from a symbiotic harmony with the cycles of the natural world. He will be free from the brainwashed mind prison that you consider a modern education. Without the rigid shackles that the written word or the mental straightjacket that is abstract number manipulation or the patriarchal bent of the scientific method, he will gain a more profound knowledge of universal truth that would be impervious to dishonesty and falsehood.

Naturally, many roadblocks to this utopian revolution must be cleared, one of which is this notion of an 'economy' which is nothing more than a worldwide mental illness. This mental illness runs deep, so extreme measures must be employed to purge mankind of the desire for commercial endeavor. Modern global civilization needs a lobotomy. A transorbital lobotomy, to be specific, where an ice pick is driven into the eye socket through the Lesser Wing of the Sphenoid Bone where it is halted about two inches into the prefrontal cortex. At this point it is vigorously stirred so that the white matter is obliterated thereby freeing the subject from the burden of higher thinking processes.

So what will our civilization-wide transorbital lobotomy look like? Inhibitive tissue must be destroyed, and in our case that is the parasitical bourgeoisie, which sadly, is a class that may of the posters in this forum comprise. I have bad news for the older forum regulars here: you will likely spend the rest of your days in Alaskan gulags. But fear not, for your grandchildren and great grandchildren will know the simple contentment of living from the land that you had unknowingly searched for your whole lives but had always eluded you. This future in inevitable, and the sooner we arrive there, the less suffering that has to be endured in the transition process. Bernie 2020!
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Spartan
With regard to the debates over carbon-based energy use vs. a so-called Green Economy, comedian Bill Barr Burr once said, "Let's face it, 80% of you have to go".
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Guys, as a leftist, I have to admit: this is all true. We do want to destroy the economy. A system built on monetary exchange could never be fair, so we must burn the whole edifice to the ground. For too long, man has been alienated from the fruits of his labor; the result of which is the corrupt house of cards that is modern civilization. People need to return to an authentic living where they are directly rewarded by their work, and this means a return to widespread agricultural living. Only a few administrators (such as myself) should be exempt from the most honest work a man can do; farming. But not farming on his own land, since personal property begets greed, but on communal property so that all work is equitably rewarded. In being closer to nature, man will gain wisdom from a symbiotic harmony with the cycles of the natural world. He will be free from the brainwashed mind prison that you consider a modern education. Without the rigid shackles that the written word or the mental straightjacket that is abstract number manipulation or the patriarchal bent of the scientific method, he will gain a more profound knowledge of universal truth that would be impervious to dishonesty and falsehood.

Naturally, many roadblocks to this utopian revolution must be cleared, one of which is this notion of an 'economy' which is nothing more than a worldwide mental illness. This mental illness runs deep, so extreme measures must be employed to purge mankind of the desire for commercial endeavor. Modern global civilization needs a lobotomy. A transorbital lobotomy, to be specific, where an ice pick is driven into the eye socket through the Lesser Wing of the Sphenoid Bone where it is halted about two inches into the prefrontal cortex. At this point it is vigorously stirred so that the white matter is obliterated thereby freeing the subject from the burden of higher thinking processes.

So what will our civilization-wide transorbital lobotomy look like? Inhibitive tissue must be destroyed, and in our case that is the parasitical bourgeoisie, which sadly, is a class that may of the posters in this forum comprise. I have bad news for the older forum regulars here: you will likely spend the rest of your days in Alaskan gulags. But fear not, for your grandchildren and great grandchildren will know the simple contentment of living from the land that you had unknowingly searched for your whole lives but had always eluded you. This future in inevitable, and the sooner we arrive there, the less suffering that has to be endured in the transition process. Bernie 2020!
Where's the puke "reaction"? I need it now.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Spartan
Guys, as a leftist, I have to admit: this is all true…
Overall, a good reply. It got most people to read into it long enough to realize it was meant to be funny and not a serious reply.

I gave it a Like instead of Funny because to me it too closely resembled the rationale the Bolsheviks provided as they trashed the economy of the old Imperial Russia, replacing it with the Soviet system. We all know that economic system failed – collapsing under its own weight. But in one sense the USSR did succeed – at killing off 30 million or more of its own people and shrinking its overall rate of economic growth. Population and economic growth still haven't recovered today, some 30 years after the USSR's collapse.

Congrats! You know history, and you have a ironic but dark sense of humor ;). That's more than I can say for some on the political left side of the USA's spectrum.
 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Ninja
Guys, as a leftist, I have to admit: this is all true. We do want to destroy the economy. A system built on monetary exchange could never be fair, so we must burn the whole edifice to the ground. For too long, man has been alienated from the fruits of his labor; the result of which is the corrupt house of cards that is modern civilization. People need to return to an authentic living where they are directly rewarded by their work, and this means a return to widespread agricultural living. Only a few administrators (such as myself) should be exempt from the most honest work a man can do; farming. But not farming on his own land, since personal property begets greed, but on communal property so that all work is equitably rewarded. In being closer to nature, man will gain wisdom from a symbiotic harmony with the cycles of the natural world. He will be free from the brainwashed mind prison that you consider a modern education. Without the rigid shackles that the written word or the mental straightjacket that is abstract number manipulation or the patriarchal bent of the scientific method, he will gain a more profound knowledge of universal truth that would be impervious to dishonesty and falsehood.

Naturally, many roadblocks to this utopian revolution must be cleared, one of which is this notion of an 'economy' which is nothing more than a worldwide mental illness. This mental illness runs deep, so extreme measures must be employed to purge mankind of the desire for commercial endeavor. Modern global civilization needs a lobotomy. A transorbital lobotomy, to be specific, where an ice pick is driven into the eye socket through the Lesser Wing of the Sphenoid Bone where it is halted about two inches into the prefrontal cortex. At this point it is vigorously stirred so that the white matter is obliterated thereby freeing the subject from the burden of higher thinking processes.

So what will our civilization-wide transorbital lobotomy look like? Inhibitive tissue must be destroyed, and in our case that is the parasitical bourgeoisie, which sadly, is a class that may of the posters in this forum comprise. I have bad news for the older forum regulars here: you will likely spend the rest of your days in Alaskan gulags. But fear not, for your grandchildren and great grandchildren will know the simple contentment of living from the land that you had unknowingly searched for your whole lives but had always eluded you. This future in inevitable, and the sooner we arrive there, the less suffering that has to be endured in the transition process. Bernie 2020!
"A Modest Proposal" for our times.;)
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
"A Modest Proposal" for our times.;)
I looked that up. My, if not education, trivia base continues to expand.

The argument against the left!
The finger thing indicating that leftists want to reduce the bottom 10%'s standard of living doesn't convince me of its accuracy. To me it's a show of the top 10%'s ability to argue their respective positions, not of their concern for anybody less fortunate.

Looking at the situation from the other side I wonder if my thought that a person working a full time job, even a job in fast food, should be able to afford food, housing and a bus pass, makes me a leftist. It's the minimum wage argument I suppose. My job technically makes me a dem in spirit if not in voting practice. My experience tells me that none in politics have much interest in our welfare. While I don't follow politics a few (unverified) facts slipped through the cracks of the info dome I try to live under. The latest was that under Obama, more illegals got deported than under Bush and 4 times the amount of pot dispensaries got raided by the feds. That doesn't paint a very 'liberal minded' picture of that administration. My thought on that is change the laws you don't like and enforce the laws you have.

Anyway, regarding the idea of reduced growth, a newsflash: none of the bottom 10% lefties want less in terms of a return on the time they spend working. That discussion happens at a level that is completely out of touch with anybody on my level. Then again, again looking at this from the other side, not buying inexpensive Walmart items means not being able to afford as many things. Walmart would be taken down a notch and that money would go back into our economy via money spent on domestically produced products. That's the bottom coming up and the top coming down ... and Irv gets left out of it completely.
 
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H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Guys, as a leftist, I have to admit: this is all true. We do want to destroy the economy. A system built on monetary exchange could never be fair, so we must burn the whole edifice to the ground. For too long, man has been alienated from the fruits of his labor; the result of which is the corrupt house of cards that is modern civilization. People need to return to an authentic living where they are directly rewarded by their work, and this means a return to widespread agricultural living. Only a few administrators (such as myself) should be exempt from the most honest work a man can do; farming. But not farming on his own land, since personal property begets greed, but on communal property so that all work is equitably rewarded. In being closer to nature, man will gain wisdom from a symbiotic harmony with the cycles of the natural world. He will be free from the brainwashed mind prison that you consider a modern education. Without the rigid shackles that the written word or the mental straightjacket that is abstract number manipulation or the patriarchal bent of the scientific method, he will gain a more profound knowledge of universal truth that would be impervious to dishonesty and falsehood.

Naturally, many roadblocks to this utopian revolution must be cleared, one of which is this notion of an 'economy' which is nothing more than a worldwide mental illness. This mental illness runs deep, so extreme measures must be employed to purge mankind of the desire for commercial endeavor. Modern global civilization needs a lobotomy. A transorbital lobotomy, to be specific, where an ice pick is driven into the eye socket through the Lesser Wing of the Sphenoid Bone where it is halted about two inches into the prefrontal cortex. At this point it is vigorously stirred so that the white matter is obliterated thereby freeing the subject from the burden of higher thinking processes.

So what will our civilization-wide transorbital lobotomy look like? Inhibitive tissue must be destroyed, and in our case that is the parasitical bourgeoisie, which sadly, is a class that may of the posters in this forum comprise. I have bad news for the older forum regulars here: you will likely spend the rest of your days in Alaskan gulags. But fear not, for your grandchildren and great grandchildren will know the simple contentment of living from the land that you had unknowingly searched for your whole lives but had always eluded you. This future in inevitable, and the sooner we arrive there, the less suffering that has to be endured in the transition process. Bernie 2020!
You rite good.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Would everybody please just shut up and take Irv's money? :D
What is this? Pick on Irv week? I’ve started my tax returns, and the Federal, state, and local governments are doing a more than adequate job of taking my money. They don’t need your help, thank you very much.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I looked that up. My, if not education, trivia base continues to expand.



The finger thing indicating that leftists want to reduce the bottom 10%'s standard of living doesn't convince me of its accuracy. To me it's a show of the top 10%'s ability to argue their respective positions, not of their concern for anybody less fortunate.

Looking at the situation from the other side I wonder if my thought that a person working a full time job, even a job in fast food, should be able to afford food, housing and a bus pass, makes me a leftist. It's the minimum wage argument I suppose. My job technically makes me a dem in spirit if not in voting practice. My experience tells me that none in politics have much interest in our welfare. While I don't follow politics a few (unverified) facts slipped through the cracks of the info dome I try to live under. The latest was that under Obama, more illegals got deported than under Bush and 4 times the amount of pot dispensaries got raided by the feds. That doesn't paint a very 'liberal minded' picture of that administration. My thought on that is change the laws you don't like and enforce the laws you have.

Anyway, regarding the idea of reduced growth, a newsflash: none of the bottom 10% lefties want less in terms of a return on the time they spend working. That discussion happens at a level that is completely out of touch with anybody on my level. Then again, again looking at this from the other side, not buying inexpensive Walmart items means not being able to afford as many things. Walmart would be taken down a notch and that money would go back into our economy via money spent on domestically produced products. That's the bottom coming up and the top coming down ... and Irv gets left out of it completely.
The US will never make up the difference if WalMart sells less to any major degree- it's not possible and illegal migrant workers should tell you that because Americans DO NOT want to do those jobs, for such low pay. They would rather go without a job. As for some of the items, I won't say they'll never be made here since the founder of FoxConn has said they'll begin production later this year. However, if WalMart is taken down a notch and they close a lot of stores, where will those people work?

I have seen the stats about Obama's time as POTUS but I have to wonder how Obama supporters and the Left sleep, considering their stance on immigration and pot is diametrically opposed to those practices of deporting and closing pot dispensaries.
 

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