Why match fronts & center?

[herbu]

I've read about the importance of matching front l/r & center speakers so many times that I did it myself, and have even parroted the advice to others. But I'm saving up my allowance and thinking about some new fronts, maybe in the $10k/pair range. Adding their comparable center will add a couple more $k, and I'm wondering why.

I don't use the center for music... just the fronts in stereo. That means the center is only used for TV/movies, and then it gets mostly dialog. I already have an Aperion Verus Grand center, ($800).

So I'm wondering, what's the big deal about spending another $2-3k for a "matching" center? Please don't talk about matching timbre and such. It's mostly voices on TV shows and in movies, right? Once you get into this level of speaker, does it really make as much difference as the l/r for music?

 

[j_garcia]

What do you mean "just" voices on TV and movies? YES, that is why, but you are correct that at that level of speaker it likely becomes less of an issue. Ultimately how much of an issue it is depends on how critical you are and how big of a difference that timbre match is (how different the speakers are). I'd say try it out without upgrading the center and see how you like it. If you can live with it, then that's money in your pocket. When most people talk about matching, I'd say we're more talking about extreme mismatches like a bright horn loaded center with metal mids a quiet soft dome tweeter main with paper mids. That could yield a pretty noticeable difference in vocals and highs IMHO. YMMV.

 

[Swerd]

I agree with j garcia. Try your Aperion center with the new fronts. It may be satisfactory. What might those front speakers be???

I think the general advice to match the front three speakers came about for two reasons:

About 10-15 years ago when digital DVDs became the norm, people (such as myself) began replacing older systems such as stereos or systems VCRs and Dolby ProLogic surround sound. I had two speakers (JBL L-100s) from an older stereo that I wanted to keep as part of an expanded 5 channel system. I didn't want to spend a lot of money on a center channel speaker, and I got lucky when I bought a NHT SuperCenter speaker. It's mid range actually outperformed what I had, and as a result, the center channel of DVDs sounded good even though those speakers were a mismatch. I think a mismatch fails most noticeably when a center channel speaker is so inadequate, compared to the left and right speakers, that it sounds like there is a sonic hole in the middle.

The other reason is that salesmen will always recommend that customers buy more stuff.

 

[Adam]

Getting the same tonal qualities used to be a big deal for sounds like went across those front three speakers. For example, if you're watching a movie and a Harley goes from left to right across the screen, you don't (I'm guessing) want it to sound like a Harley in the left speaker, a Honda scooter in the center channel, and then Harley again on the right side. It was best to have speakers that matched in order to keep that transition as seamless as possible.

While today's auto calibration and eq systems can't solve everything, they can do a pretty good job of getting speakers more sonically matched to one another. Of course, if you pair a $10 speaker in the center to your new $10k fronts, then yeah...no electronic wizardry is going to make them sound the same. But, for capable speakers, you might get really close.

 

[zieglj01]

I consider the center channel as the center focus for all sound, and not just for voices - however, there is no
law written in stone, as to which center you use. If you can live with the one you have - then enjoy it.

 

[ImcLoud]

I have heard a few systems with mismatched centers, epos spic 2's with a polk center, cerwin vega 12" speakers with an energy center, and a few others {them 2 stick in my mind} and it was noticeable that something was wrong.... For the dialog it was OK, but when the fronts were lighting at the same time as the center, it was not pleasant...
Here's my thoughts...
First, with movies I can not imagine the need for $10K fronts? It may just be me, but tv and movies aren't recorded in a studio {a few exceptions of course like animated, language changes, and cut ins}, I have been on the sets of a few shows and a couple movies {outside providence, I got to meet George Wendt and Alec Baldwin {he was filming, George wasn't} and I can tell you first hand no matter what you spend on speakers to me movies don't sound super great...
NOW for music thats another story, I can see drowning your self in the material, closing your eyes imagining the artist is 6 feet in front of you for your own private concert, you can almost feel their breath.. I GET IT... I enjoy it myself... So if 10K get me closer I am down for it...
SO- to me a separate music system in a separate room or not makes a lot more sense, sure build a decent theater, but then get them $10K speakers and put them somewhere quiet, sit your chair in "that" spot {you know the one} and turn the volume up, disappear into a place so far away you forget that the cost of them speakers could feed a small starving village in Ethiopia for 7 days, lol...
But seriously, if I was spending $10K "or so" on a pair of speakers it would be these guys SoundScape 8 , but I have heard the Ascend sierra towers with a pair of uls15 subs and I think I would go there first for around $5K in rosenut/dk cherry w/ ribbons....

BUT ANYWAY like others say, try it, if your ears like it, your good...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've read about the importance of matching front l/r & center speakers so many times that I did it myself, and have even parroted the advice to others. But I'm saving up my allowance and thinking about some new fronts, maybe in the $10k/pair range. Adding their comparable center will add a couple more $k, and I'm wondering why.

I don't use the center for music... just the fronts in stereo. That means the center is only used for TV/movies, and then it gets mostly dialog. I already have an Aperion Verus Grand center, ($800).

So I'm wondering, what's the big deal about spending another $2-3k for a "matching" center? Please don't talk about matching timbre and such. It's mostly voices on TV shows and in movies, right? Once you get into this level of speaker, does it really make as much difference as the l/r for music?

I've used Salon2, Orion3, Phil3, 802D2 for front L/R and KEF 201/2 for Center and Surrounds for movies. As long as they are level matched, it's really no big deal IMO. Most of the times the only thing coming out of the Center is the dialogue. As long as you can hear the dialogue perfectly, no big deal IMO.

I've never encountered a situation where I thought to myself, "Wow, there is something off or amiss between the Center and the Front L/R".

 

[herbu]

at that level of speaker it likely becomes less of an issue

Thanks!

Try your Aperion center with the new fronts. It may be satisfactory. What might those front speakers be?

Frankly, I have just begun seriously looking at speakers like this. I never paid much attention to them because it didn't seem possible I would ever consider spending that kind of money for speakers. Far from deciding, but starting to look at MiCon Audio Evo-2, RBH T-2P, Legacy Audio Theater, Revel Studio 2. Guess I should add Salk and KEF, and likely others I will discover as I investigate. Doing a lot of reading and getting ideas here. If I decide to pull the trigger, it seems the hard part will be finding a way to actually listen to the different choices.

for capable speakers, you might get really close.

Thanks

I consider the center channel as the center focus for all sound, and not just for voices

That's what I don't understand. It's not used at all for music. But like music, I wonder how much TV/movie sound seems like it's coming from the center, but is really just well balanced l/r. I'll have to do some experiments... turn center off/down and see what still sounds like it's coming out of the TV.

a separate music system in a separate room or not makes a lot more sense

That would be nice, but separate room is not an option. So if in the same room, why not a single system for double duty? And if they sound great for music, they should sound great for movies too. Right? No harm, no foul.

As long as they are level matched, it's really no big deal IMO

That seems to be the general consensus. At least, enough so that it doesn't seem unreasonable to upgrade the l/r first, and see how it sounds. Can always do the center later.

Thanks, everybody!

 

[PENG]

It really is not a big deal as others seem to agree. That's assuming you level match them and they all have similar enough specs.

 

[tmurnin]

I've always matched the brand, but found that I could step down a model in the center vs the l/r, which saves a little money. For your Aperions, using Verus Grand L/R with an Intimus center should have been fine, and that saves a little money. Maybe if someone sat in my room with a sound meter, they could show me how my speakers aren't precisely matched, but I can't hear any issues, which is what counts.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It really is not a big deal as others seem to agree. That's assuming you level match them and they all have similar enough specs.

Yeah, just don't use Salon2 for L/R and Bose for Center.

 

[Tbone289]

I've always found that the front soundstage is much more seamless and coherent with voice (timbre) matched L-C-R speakers. IME, keeping to the same brand of speaker is often not enough, as many times only the speakers from the same range within a brand are voiced similarly enough to maintain that effect.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I prefer identical speakers all around. I can really tell when the speakers aren't identical. Timbre is just off - not quite right.

 

[rojo]

When most people talk about matching, I'd say we're more talking about extreme mismatches like a bright horn loaded center with metal mids a quiet soft dome tweeter main with paper mids. That could yield a pretty noticeable difference in vocals and highs IMHO. YMMV.

I agree with this. As you can tell from my sig, my front stage uses MB Quarts of mixed series. Conventional wisdom is to make sure your front stage is of the same manufacturer, same series. But the Vera bookshelfs and the QL series center all use a Ti tweet and mid drivers of a similar composite, so they're similar enough. Any difference in response curve is flattened out by my AVR anyway, so the net effect is still transparency.

I'll continue recommending that people use the same maker, same series front stage, but I ain't gonna judge someone who mixes and matches a little. Mixing Infinity mains with a Klipsch center would be pretty jarring though.

 

[Tbone289]

I agree with this. As you can tell from my sig, my front stage uses MB Quarts of mixed series. Conventional wisdom is to make sure your front stage is of the same manufacturer, same series. But the Vera bookshelfs and the QL series center all use a Ti tweet and mid drivers of a similar composite, so they're similar enough. Any difference in response curve is flattened out by my AVR anyway, so the net effect is still transparency.

There indeed are exceptions like this. My setup is an exception to my rule also, actually (though you couldn't tell it since evidently I'm not allowed a signature yet!). My center and front mains (Polk) use a similar Tri-laminate dome, with differing metal coatings. They are slightly dissimilar in timbre, but even the older MultEQ can tweak them enough that they are practically seamless. However, there are other models within the Polk line with tweeters that have a similar appearance and name that are very different in timbre that certainly do not work together.

Perhaps it should be stated like this: Using timbre-matched sets of speakers will ensure seamless integration. Using speakers with similar specs and timbre may work, but it may take some trial-and-error to determine if the match is acceptable.

 

[herbu]

Thanks again guys. My specific concern is related to what I consider very high cost speakers. If I want to consider a front l/r in the $10k range, how important is it to match the center? The l/r are for music. The center would be used for TV/movies. The Aperion Grand center I have seems very good to me now, w/ matching towers. But if I significantly improve the towers, will it make TV/movies sound lousy? My intuition says no, but it is a pedestrian intuition and not based on knowledge. Thus the question here. If the answer is "yes, it will sound lousy", then I'll need to rethink my budget, or just save a little longer. My gut says the l/r will sound great for music, the whole 7.2 will sound better than it does now, and I can always upgrade the center at my leisure. But that's just my gut.

 

[PENG]

Thanks again guys. My specific concern is related to what I consider very high cost speakers. If I want to consider a front l/r in the $10k range, how important is it to match the center? The l/r are for music. The center would be used for TV/movies. The Aperion Grand center I have seems very good to me now, w/ matching towers. But if I significantly improve the towers, will it make TV/movies sound lousy? My intuition says no, but it is a pedestrian intuition and not based on knowledge. Thus the question here. If the answer is "yes, it will sound lousy", then I'll need to rethink my budget, or just save a little longer. My gut says the l/r will sound great for music, the whole 7.2 will sound better than it does now, and I can always upgrade the center at my leisure. But that's just my gut.

If this Aperion Verus Grand Center Overview and Measurements | Audioholics is what you have, go with your gut. It will sound just great.

 

[ImcLoud]

Worse case, get a pair of bookshelfs that match your center channel and use the $10K towers for music {if you don't like the sound with the new towers and your center}...... $400 for a set of verus books on bstock, and you will have the best of both worlds...

 

[zieglj01]

Thanks again guys. My specific concern is related to what I consider very high cost speakers. If I want to consider a front l/r in the $10k range, how important is it to match the center? The l/r are for music.

Why is it important that you buy 10k speakers? You may be able to find some real serious good sounding speakers for less,
that can out perform some 10K range speakers.

 

[ImcLoud]

Why is it important that you buy 10k speakers? You may be able to find some real serious good sounding speakers for less,
that can out perform some 10K range speakers.

I think he already has a pair in mind... If I was spending 10 on a pair of speakers I think it would be very hard to pass these up in high gloss SoundScape 8 I honestly can't think of anything for much more that will sound much better... then again I couldn't think of putting something so gorgeous in a home theater setup, them guys should have some really nice mono blocks stacked next to them, a nice preamp, cd player, dac, and turntable.. There should be NO tv in the same room... Unless for music videos...


I think I would get this veneer