Why is SACD not really succeeding?

[shokhead]

Okay, I realized that you guys are right and I am wrong. Then, let's talk about somewhat different matters.

Say that there is no conclusive evidence yet that a format (CD, HDCD, SACD, DVD-A) matters. In this situation, we can have three different personal positions:

a) I don't know because there is no evidence yet (analogous to agnostics).
b) I believe that a format does not matter (athiest).
c) I believe that a format matters (believer).

Apparently, you guys' choice is a) and mine is c). Right?

Then suppose that there are two players both of which are of very good quality in every way but one of which can play every format but the other can play only CDs. The former is a little more expensive than the latter, of course. We have to make a buying decision on either of these.

In reality, either that a format matters or that a format does not matter are possible, right?---let's make it simple (no in-between situation). With no conclusive evidence available, this is now a probablistic matter. In this situation, which player will you choose personally?

I, for one, will choose the player that plays all. How about you? And why? Because there is no evidence yet, you will not prabably use your personal experience with these formats for this decision making. Right?

Universal player for sure but also a multi-disc and now theres almost none of those. Most single players are DVD-A if they use one of the formats. Most multi-disc players are DVD-A if they use one{i'm not talking about Sony}I think there is less then 6 multi-disc players that play both and it might be 3 to 1 the players that only play DVD-A to SACD.

 

[krabapple]

That assumes specialized technology that is not standard nor available on a wide variety of players like TOSlink or standard digital out.

Yes, which is why I wrote 'a few'.

Since this thread is why hi-res formats are not succeeding, this only reinforces the point. Copy protection schemes invariably reduce the marketability of products. You would think companies would have learned these lessons based on past experience with proprietary video and computing formats. They are worried about people making illegal copies of their music, but by limiting the usefulness of their products, they are also preventing people from BUYING their music as well. Another case where lawyers and IP specialists have killed innovation.

I don't disagree. 'Hi-rez' was a clusterf**k from the word go, and this is one of the ways. Lack of digital transfer + crap-ola bass management/time alignment inconsistencies in players and analog inputs of AVRs, makes the whole 'surround' experience less than it could be.

Also, there is no reason why hi-res formats should cost any more than regular CDs. Printing costs are almost exactly the same. It only discourages people from buying their products.

Again, I agree, although artists might not -- they claim that stereo mix + surroudn mix are effectively two different releases and should be compensated for accordingly, royalty-wise. This has been given as yet another reason why the majors have cooled on the formats.

 

[shokhead]

Yes, which is why I wrote 'a few'.



I don't disagree. 'Hi-rez' was a clusterf**k from the word go, and this is one of the ways. Lack of digital transfer + crap-ola bass management/time alignment inconsistencies in players and analog inputs of AVRs, makes the whole 'surround' experience less than it could be.



Again, I agree, although artists might not -- they claim that stereo mix + surroudn mix are effectively two different releases and should be compensated for accordingly, royalty-wise. This has been given as yet another reason why the majors have cooled on the formats.

Crap-ola bm,yes but thats not the discs fault.

 

[krabapple]

Crap-ola bm,yes but thats not the discs fault.

Ah, as for things that are 'the disc's fault' that made things more complicated than necessary, we have 1) Sony's first series of SACDs, which had no CD layer and 2) surround engineers who mix stuff into the .1 channel, rather than just keeping all the signal in the LCR/S and letting bass management reroute bass (or not) on a system-specific basis, and 3)extreme copy protection. One could also add 4) DVD-A menu authoring that was inconsistent.

So, you had, for much of the hi-rez roll-out's lifetime, gear that didn't function consistently (or even as well as a DVD video-only player), discs that didn't offer content and features consistently, whose contents weren't portable, and a selection of releases that was rather less than comprehensive. All in an age when popular listening was trending towards MORE portability, ease of set-up and use, and on-demand variety, not less. Coupled with an apparent lack of clue as to how to market the darn things. Brilliant.

 

[shokhead]

Hey,i'm the first to be pissed at Sony for a screwed up Hi-Res war. If all went with DVD-A,i belive all would be much more healthy today. All on the same page goes a long way but Sony just cant do that and would rather take a chance of going another way and being on top and if it gets screwed up like it is now,so be it. I still thing SACD will fade away and DVD-A will stay around.
BTW,i must think that,i have a Sony player but only 2 SACD Discs and many more DVD-A discs,go figure.BTW,i'm selling the Sony,wanta buy it?

 

[krabapple]

Hey,i'm the first to be pissed at Sony for a screwed up Hi-Res war. If all went with DVD-A,i belive all would be much more healthy today. All on the same page goes a long way but Sony just cant do that and would rather take a chance of going another way and being on top and if it gets screwed up like it is now,so be it. I still thing SACD will fade away and DVD-A will stay around.

Well, it's actually SACD that's hanging around (mainly in the foreign market) and DVD-A that's disappearing (all but abandoned in favor of DualDisc...which is also failing).

 

[Totoro]

Well, it's actually SACD that's hanging around (mainly in the foreign market) and DVD-A that's disappearing (all but abandoned in favor of DualDisc...which is also failing).

The DualDiscs I have seen are not encoded in DVD-Audio, just plain old DVD. What gives?

 

[krabapple]

Some are in DVD-A(e.g. Nine Inch Nails), most aren't. Newer ones tend not to be.

 

[Totoro]

Some are in DVD-A(e.g. Nine Inch Nails), most aren't. Newer ones tend not to be.

It just sucks that fidelity keeps going backwards. I mean, what's the big deal about encoding in both formats on the same disc. Then folks that don't want to buy a DVD-A player can still have their cake, while the rest of us eat it too.

 

[BostonMark]

talking heads dvd audio box

I was happy to see that the Talking Heads released a box set with ALL of their studio albums in the dual disc format with a DVD-Audio side. If you are interested in reading more about it, I reviewed each individual dual disc. My reviews are geared towards audiophiles. The link below is for the Box set, and the links to the individual albums are included in the box set review.


Talking Heads Dual Disc-DVD-Audio Brick

I keep pushing for the high resolution formats. I've written a lot of reviews of DVD-Audio and SACD on epinions (as shopaholic_man) trying to raise public awareness! Sigh, at least I know they sound good!

 

[kingdaddy]

Classical is killing SACD

Biggest problem I see as of recent is the fact that most all new releases seem to be Classical and Classical music lovers are a fraction of a percent of all the music buying public so their playing the wrong market. To sell a lot, your target group needs to much larger, the people who care about audio quality will surface to the top and buy enough to keep it going if they would put out more mainstream populer music. I think their killing it themselves by making a niche medium even more a niche by only producing Classical new releases. I've stopped buying all together because I, like the majority, don’t like Classical.

 

[dvda-sacd]

Biggest problem I see as of recent is the fact that most all new releases seem to be Classical and Classical music lovers are a fraction of a percent of all the music buying public so their playing the wrong market. To sell a lot, your target group needs to much larger, the people who care about audio quality will surface to the top and buy enough to keep it going if they would put out more mainstream populer music. I think their killing it themselves by making a niche medium even more a niche by only producing Classical new releases. I've stopped buying all together because I, like the majority, don’t like Classical.

Classical music and audiophile labels are not killing SACD but supporting it. It reminds me the first years of the Compact Disc.

The Compact Disc reached the market in late 1982 in Asia and early the following year in other markets. This event is often seen as the "Big Bang" of the digital audio revolution. The new audio disc was enthusiastically received, especially in the early-adopting classical music and audiophile communities and its handling quality received particular praise. The far larger popular and rock music industries were slower to adopt the new format, especially in the huge consumer markets in Europe and the United States.

However, SACD didn't involve any audio revolution.

Lukily, I'm a classical music lover.

 

[kingdaddy]

Classical music and audiophile labels are not killing SACD but supporting it. It reminds me the first years of the Compact Disc.However, SACD didn't involve any audio revolution.

Lukily, I'm a classical music lover.

I think you missed my point, Classical music is not killing it, I said the lack of popular music is, Classical music listeners make up a tiny percentage of the listening public, not nearly enough to sustain any successful format, and SACD is nearly all Classical now, big mistake.

 

[Sleestack]

I think you missed my point, Classical music is not killing it, I said the lack of popular music is, Classical music listeners make up a tiny percentage of the listening public, not nearly enough to sustain any successful format, and SACD is nearly all Classical now, big mistake.

Plenty of jazz releases too.

 

[dvda-sacd]

I think you missed my point, Classical music is not killing it,

The title of your post was "Classical is killing SACD".

 

[kingdaddy]

The title of your post was "Classical is killing SACD".

So you only read the title, now I see the confusion.

 

[eirepaul]

I was happy to see that the Talking Heads released a box set with ALL of their studio albums in the dual disc format with a DVD-Audio side. If you are interested in reading more about it, I reviewed each individual dual disc. My reviews are geared towards audiophiles. The link below is for the Box set, and the links to the individual albums are included in the box set review.


Talking Heads Dual Disc-DVD-Audio Brick

I keep pushing for the high resolution formats. I've written a lot of reviews of DVD-Audio and SACD on epinions (as shopaholic_man) trying to raise public awareness! Sigh, at least I know they sound good!

Thank you BostonMark, keep up the good work. I know they sound good too, and a good multi-channel release provides me with a much-enhanced listening experience, including complete immersion in the music and recognition of additional detail and nuances not heard in two-channel format without concentration. The SACD of Madman Across the Water is just wonderful.

I also lament the backwards track that popular music formats appear to be taking in terms of audio quality. I am indeed an Audioholic, and quality of sound is of paramount importance to me. I have a home theater system, but use it for movies 10% and listen to hi-res, multi-channel music 90%. When listening to stereo CDs I usually always engage Dolby PLII - I just love the enhancement provided by this function.

We can only hope that some form of hi-res multi-channel music format survives - personally I would prefer that it be DVD-A.

 

[dvda-sacd]

So you only read the title, now I see the confusion.

No, I read the whole post.

I think their killing it themselves by making a niche medium even more a niche by only producing Classical new releases.

Classical music labels must produce classical music, don't they?

 

[kingdaddy]

No, I read the whole post.
Classical music labels must produce classical music, don't they?

How is that relevant.


Your taking statements out of context, my point is very clear, Classical and a few Jazz recordings is not enough to sustain the SACD market, period.

 

[dvda-sacd]

Your taking statements out of context, my point is very clear, Classical and a few Jazz recordings is not enough to sustain the SACD market, period.

They are enough to sustain SACD as a profitable worldwide niche market, because there are many jazz and classical music lovers all around the world. Internet makes it possible.