Why can't companies be charged with fraud

[3db]

Yes, when you plug your massive amp that draws more than 125 amps, into a circuit that will give you more than that, then it will matter. What is the ordinary circuit in one's home, 15 or maybe 20 amps? Where the hell are you going to be able to plug the thing in to get that more than 125 amps? And let us see that amplifier that can draw that much current!

Of course, it is easy to get a greater current capacity from a wire, and it is not magic. It is simply to use a larger gauge of wire. But when the wire can deal with more than the amplifier could possibly draw anyway, it is big enough and bigger is not going to help. A wire that can handle 125 amps (or even quite a bit less) will be good enough for any power cord for any device that plugs into an ordinary house circuit.

This is an example of dealing with irrelevant facts to try to sucker fools into parting with their money.

Yup..I mentioned all of this as to why this add is phony.

 

[jneutron]

I don't see any fraud. What Shunyata is posting may be entirely true. It may also be entirely irrelevant.

You are absolutely correct.

At this point, in no way is it fraud.

Correct.

Based upon what I've read so far Shunyata has taken the first step in creating a machine that was built to specifically measure certain details about power cord transmitting electrical current.

Actually it is just a different slant on a pre-existing understanding.

The next step for Shunyata is to release the white paper.

Based on what I see, the white paper will not be technically strong, and I will find lots to correct. What they believe to be the issues are not. They are not strong enough theoretically to understand what is going on. But I do indeed laud the effort they have taken.

I see the following faults with this add:

1. No such instrument exists. It doesn't show up in google searches anywhere.

I thought they created one as part of their effort?

A new "Machine" is not necessary to measure these parameters.

I do this type of measurements all the time at work using off the shelf test equipment with traceable calibration and standardized testing methods.

The fact that they are not proves they are trying to hide something or are designing tests that only provide data to fit their preconceived results.

My feeling is that they are giving enough info to impress the non technical customers without giving enough away to allow reproducing the test or results by technical people. They have however, missed the boat as they do not really understand what is going on. By working on the parameters of a line cord to maximize their test results, they are accidentally making the cord better. They mis-attribute cause and effect.

Cheers, John

 

[markw]

Thanks.

By working on the parameters of a line cord to maximize their test results, they are accidentally making the cord better. They mis-attribute cause and effect.

This does beg the question: How did they make it "better" in ways that benefit the average (or even above average) listener in the real world?

 

[jneutron]

This does beg the question: How did they make it "better" in ways that benefit the average (or even above average) listener in the real world?

To alter a line cord response at the microsecond level, there are limited things that can be done.

1. Reduction of the transmission line impedance

2. Reduction of the per foot inductance.

3. Raising the per foot capacitance.

Lowering the inductance per foot controls the cord's external magnetic field better. So any current draw of the amp will be less inclined to couple to external ground loops. This is a good thing.

Cheers, John

 

[markw]

Huh? "line cord response at the microsecond level"???

What is this and how does it affect what hits our ears?

Is this something we can hear or simply something that can be measured.

Thanks for putting up with my ignorance.

 

[jneutron]

What is this and how does it affect what hits our ears?

Is this something we can hear or simply something that can be measured.

Thanks for putting up with my ignorance.

The vendor has published line cord tests which were performed at the microsecond level, and they are touting a product which performs better at that timeframe.

That level of response has zip to do with the AC power that is delivered to the power supply. Big amps will not "starve" as a result of current deprivation at one microsecond.

But a line cord which radiates a dipole magnetic field with haversine components such that the field is trapped by a ground loop... can affect the system via ground bounce.

By maximizing the high speed response of the linecord, they have to reduce the magnetic field the cord radiates. In doing so, they reduce the coupling to any ground loop.

Ground loops beddy beddy bad.

Ground loops required by code.

Cheers, John

 

[highfigh]

The vendor has published line cord tests which were performed at the microsecond level, and they are touting a product which performs better at that timeframe.

That level of response has zip to do with the AC power that is delivered to the power supply. Big amps will not "starve" as a result of current deprivation at one microsecond.

But a line cord which radiates a dipole magnetic field with haversine components such that the field is trapped by a ground loop... can affect the system via ground bounce.

By maximizing the high speed response of the linecord, they have to reduce the magnetic field the cord radiates. In doing so, they reduce the coupling to any ground loop.

Ground loops beddy beddy bad.

Ground loops required by code.

Cheers, John

Doesn't just increasing the wire gauge decrease the strength of the magnetic field? I remember from 12V training that a smaller wire will be more prone to inducing noise in nearby cabling, especially cables carrying low level audio signals. If that was impossible or impractical, increasing the distance from the power cables to the audio cables was the next best thing.

Yeah, ground loops are a PITA but in a vehicle, the noise can be removed through better grounding practices. In a home, that can be harder and definitely more expensive. I have never been a big fan of isolation transformers unless they're really good and that, unfortunately, means they're expensive.

 

[jneutron]

Doesn't just increasing the wire gauge decrease the strength of the magnetic field?

It does. But not in the way most believe.

At a fixed distance from the center of the agressor conductor, the guage of the aggressor does not change the field.

At the surface of the agressor conductor, yes. The bigger the guage, the lower the surface field. So if you tie the agressor and victim together, going to a larger agressor guage will indeed lower the effective field.

Cheers, John

 

[mtrycrafts]

You are keeping yourself very scarce here. Some/many appreciate your inputs, stranger

 

[jinjuku]

That level of response has zip to do with the AC power that is delivered to the power supply. Big amps will not "starve" as a result of current deprivation at one microsecond.

But a line cord which radiates a dipole magnetic field with haversine components such that the field is trapped by a ground loop... can affect the system via ground bounce.

I know with twisted pair the twists are there to act as an RF/EMI choke and fortunately every thing has a dedicated return path with CAT5/6 so the signal is balanced which allows other unwanted information to be filtered from the signal.

I know with other cables an RF (ferrite) choke on the equipement end can be used. So with that being said, what scenarios are going to require a cable that acts' in such manner? Are they solving a wiring deficiency in the home. Lets face it: our current model of power delivery is archaic at best.

What I am still confused about with their 'experiment' is what was the stock cord? I am also not sure what problem they are solving with their graphs.

I guess it comes down to: if I need to take those measures maybe I should look at to the root causes (differences in ground potentials, other power supplies introducing un-wanted noise, phase differences on the panel etc...)

 

[3db]

You are absolutely correct.


Correct.



Actually it is just a different slant on a pre-existing understanding.


Based on what I see, the white paper will not be technically strong, and I will find lots to correct. What they believe to be the issues are not. They are not strong enough theoretically to understand what is going on. But I do indeed laud the effort they have taken.



I thought they created one as part of their effort?



My feeling is that they are giving enough info to impress the non technical customers without giving enough away to allow reproducing the test or results by technical people. They have however, missed the boat as they do not really understand what is going on. By working on the parameters of a line cord to maximize their test results, they are accidentally making the cord better. They mis-attribute cause and effect.

Cheers, John

I find it strange that you completely omitted my points on the gross graphing errors, cable diameters and lengths were not stated, and the simple fact that no conductor that I'm aware of that plugs into a standard UAC approved wall outlet can carry 225 amps. Thats utter bunk if I ever saw it. The only thing the white paper would be good for is to clean up the pile of sh?t that this really is.

 

[10010011]

Are they solving a wiring deficiency in the home. Lets face it: our current model of power delivery is archaic at best.

You have touched on something that has always irked me about these magic line cord and electrical outlet believers.

Unless you have done some special wiring installation your house is probably filled with the cheapest romex the contractor could buy in bulk.
This wire is hanging loosely inside your walls that are pretty much transparent to RF/EMI.

But three feet of magic wire from the wall to the amp makes everything sound better.

 

[Pyrrho]

You have touched on something that has always irked me about these magic line cord and electrical outlet believers.

Unless you have done some special wiring installation your house is probably filled with the cheapest romex the contractor could buy in bulk.
This wire is hanging loosely inside your walls that are pretty much transparent to RF/EMI.

But three feet of magic wire from the wall to the amp makes everything sound better.

You think that because you don't understand the magical properties of things. You see, if it is in the wall and you can't see it, it does not affect the sound. It is only when you can see it that it makes an audible difference. And that is why double blind testing fails and only sighted listening matters.

 

[Rickster71]

Unless you have done some special wiring installation your house is probably filled with the cheapest romex the contractor could buy in bulk.
This wire is hanging loosely inside your walls that are pretty much transparent to RF/EMI.

But three feet of magic wire from the wall to the amp makes everything sound better.

Agreed; when considering the miles of transmission lines and the distance the wire travels from the pole to a house, than it's length inside the house. How does a 3 or 6ft power cord help?

All NM wire, or the brand name Romex wire has to meet UL approval, the NEC, and it is rated at 600V, so there isn't really cheap NM wire.
It's just like anything else, it becomes cheaper when purchased in bulk.

 

[Rickster71]

Why can't companies be charged with fraud?
running advertisements like this?

It would be great if the problem could be worked from both ends.
Charge companies with Fraud and the consumers with Stupid.
Or simply outlaw 'Stupid' on the consumer's end.

 

[jinjuku]

The other side of the coin is to purchase a power cable from a source that allows returns. Some places have a satisfaction guarantee and all you are out is the shipping round trip.

 

[Pyrrho]

The other side of the coin is to purchase a power cable from a source that allows returns. Some places have a satisfaction guarantee and all you are out is the shipping round trip.

That typically is not going to matter, as only true believers are likely to buy in the first place, and any time one makes a change expecting to hear an improvement, one is likely to listen more intently than usual, and, of course, listening more intently means one is likely to hear more details, and so one may easily imagine that the change is causing one to hear more details, when it really is that one is listening more intently that causes the difference in noticing more details. So suckers reinforce their errors in such ways, becoming absolutely convinced that they themselves heard the difference, and no amount of reasonable discussion afterwards is likely to shift such a solidly imbedded prejudice. Words from disbelievers afterwards tend to just go in one ear and out the other, as they believe that they heard it for themselves.

 

[3db]

It would be great if the problem could be worked from both ends.
Charge companies with Fraud and the consumers with Stupid.
Or simply outlaw 'Stupid' on the consumer's end.

I dunno about the stupid part. We all had our "Barbie" moments

 

[jinjuku]

That typically is not going to matter, as only true believers are likely to buy in the first place, and any time one makes a change expecting to hear an improvement, one is likely to listen more intently than usual, and, of course, listening more intently means one is likely to hear more details, and so one may easily imagine that the change is causing one to hear more details, when it really is that one is listening more intently that causes the difference in noticing more details. So suckers reinforce their errors in such ways, becoming absolutely convinced that they themselves heard the difference, and no amount of reasonable discussion afterwards is likely to shift such a solidly imbedded prejudice. Words from disbelievers afterwards tend to just go in one ear and out the other, as they believe that they heard it for themselves.

You can't ask the subjectivists to submit to some form of DBT and as an objectivist not at the very least be open to it also.

The only thing that I have ever asked of companies like AQ/Kimber/Shunyata etc is to do as others (Axiom/Emotiva/Outlaw/Ascend/ etc...): back up their belief in their product by allowing for a no $$ obligation to try their product.

Your expectation bias wouldn't come into play becuase you wouldn't know what cable is which. Have some one roll a 6 sided dice. Even it's cable A, odd it's cable B.

 

[highfigh]

You have touched on something that has always irked me about these magic line cord and electrical outlet believers.

Unless you have done some special wiring installation your house is probably filled with the cheapest romex the contractor could buy in bulk.
This wire is hanging loosely inside your walls that are pretty much transparent to RF/EMI.

But three feet of magic wire from the wall to the amp makes everything sound better.

High voltage wiring can't be loosely hanging ANYWHERE, according to the National Electric Code. It has to be fastened to the studs, joists (only where allowable), etc at regular intervals.