Why can't companies be charged with fraud

J

jamie2112

Banned
I will second that question.............lame really lame,and some "audiophiles" will buy that crap and never look back.Damn I am in the wrong biz...........:eek:
 
sawzalot

sawzalot

Audioholic Samurai
I am putting together new state of the art interconnect stands/insulators, they will be made of scallop shells and Cape May Diamonds (beach rocks), my attempts to go green, I'm gonna be rich.:)
They will fit the beach house decor perfectly.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I don't see any fraud. What Shunyata is posting may be entirely true. It may also be entirely irrelevant.
 
J

just listening

Audioholic
At this point, in no way is it fraud. Naysayers are always asking for scientific proof thru verifiable measurements. Based upon what I've read so far Shunyata has taken the first step in creating a machine that was built to specifically measure certain details about power cord transmitting electrical current.

The next step for Shunyata is to release the white paper. Followed by having an independent study done, most likely by a couple of Universities.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
You are asking a legal question, and that would be better addressed to a lawyer, which I am not. However, there are several things to consider.

First, the government does not employ enough people for the purpose of bringing fraud charges against everyone who commits fraud. In order to do that, every public claim would have to be tested (otherwise, they will not know whether the claims amount to fraud or not), which would require a vast number of experts in all fields to examine every claim made. Do you want to pay more taxes for this? If so, vote that way, but do not complain about this if you are not willing to put your money where your mouth is.

Second, there are things that can be measured that do not make any audible difference. So a company may say what is true, that one thing measures differently from another, and there is no fraud if the two things really measure differently. Generally speaking, a larger gauge wire can handle more power than a smaller gauge wire, but this difference may be totally irrelevant if the smaller gauge wire is sufficient for the particular purpose at hand. But stating irrelevant facts is not fraud.

Third, there are certain sorts of claims that, legally, are considered subjective, and such claims are not subject to fraud, as they are not regarded as making any objective claim at all. Thus, "speaker A is better than speaker B" is regarded as having no objective meaning at all, and it does not matter if all measurements indicate that speaker A produces much more distortion (of all kinds) and is much worse (i.e., less flat) in its frequency response. After all, someone may prefer that, and so them stating such a preference does not constitute fraud. Words like "better" and "good" tend to be legally meaningless.

Basically, for it to be fraud, it must be that something that is false is stated. Any sentence that does not really state anything objective (e.g., "A is better than B") cannot be fraud, and any statement that is literally true cannot be fraud. For more, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

Again, I am not a lawyer, and the above should not be construed as legal advice. For legal advice, consult the relevant type of lawyer in your jurisdiction.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
At this point, in no way is it fraud. Naysayers are always asking for scientific proof thru verifiable measurements. Based upon what I've read so far Shunyata has taken the first step in creating a machine that was built to specifically measure certain details about power cord transmitting electrical current.

The next step for Shunyata is to release the white paper. Followed by having an independent study done, most likely by a couple of Universities.
I see the following faults with this add:

1. No such instrument exists. It doesn't show up in google searches anywhere.

2. No references are made to the length of the cables subjected to this test nor is the diameter of the cables ever mentioned.

3. Both graphs fail to indicate a valid x axes. Sure its labelled in mircoseconds but how many mircoseconds have passed. One million microseconds = 1 second.

4. The Y axes on the voltage graph is missing absolute voltage. There isn't any scale of measure.


The left graph depicting current:

There is no power chord on earth that plugs into a regular house outlet capable of carrying 225 amps of sustained current. The fuses/circuit breakers in your electrical panel are rated to trip at 20 to 25 amps worst case. Most are rated 15 amps. (can't remember the current rating for the fuse on the dedicated electrial range circuit. I believe its 40 but not quite sure) Anyway, its far less than what the graph depicts.

Maybe the arguement is its short term current. Ok. Maybe it is. Maybe the current spike only last for a few 100th of a microsecond. The curve would be a totally different shape then whats depicted by this company BS graphs. Also, it takes longer than several microseconds to charge up the filter capacitors used in electronics power supplies so any advantages of this chord is lost to the chargiing times of the filter capacitors.

I think their pulling this data out of their collective ar?es instead of using real instruments.
 
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1

10010011

Senior Audioholic
At this point, in no way is it fraud. Naysayers are always asking for scientific proof thru verifiable measurements. Based upon what I've read so far Shunyata has taken the first step in creating a machine that was built to specifically measure certain details about power cord transmitting electrical current.
A new "Machine" is not necessary to measure these parameters.

I do this type of measurements all the time at work using off the shelf test equipment with traceable calibration and standardized testing methods.

The fact that they are not proves they are trying to hide something or are designing tests that only provide data to fit their preconceived results.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Keeping in mind that I am not a lawyer, and therefore this should not be regarded as legal advice (for which one should seek out a qualified professional in the relevant jurisdiction)...

I see the following faults with this add:

1. No such instrument exists. It doesn't show up in google searches anywhere.

Perhaps it is just their own name for something that measures current. Current is measurable. Them giving some fancy sounding name to it is not likely to be regarded as fraud.


2. No references are made to the length of the cables subjected to this test nor is the diameter of the cables ever mentioned.

Leaving out facts is not the same as fraud, which involves falsehoods. If they are talking about, let us say for example, mile long cords, then it would be irrelevant to real world use, but that would not make the claim false, and therefore not fraud. (It would just make the claim irrelevant, not false.)


3. Both graphs fail to indicate a valid x axes. Sure its labelled in mircoseconds but how many mircoseconds have passed. One million microseconds = 1 second.

That seems to indicate that the graph is literally not saying anything, but only appears to be saying something. A sentence devoid of meaning is not fraud. A meaningless graph, being meaningless, is not asserting any falsehoods, and consequently is not fraud.


4. The Y axes on the voltage graph is missing absolute voltage. There isn't any scale of measure.

Same response as to 3 above.


The left graph depicting current:

There is no power chord on earth that plugs into a regular house outlet capable of carrying 225 amps of sustained current. The fuses/circuit breakers in your electrical panel are rated to trip at 20 to 25 amps worst case. Most are rated 15 amps. (can't remember the current rating for the fuse on the dedicated electrial range circuit. I believe its 40 but not quite sure) Anyway, its far less than what the graph depicts.

Yes. What the power cord does or does not do at 225 amps is totally irrelevant to any real world use. But irrelevant facts, as long as they are true, do not constitute fraud.


Maybe the arguement is its short term current. Ok. Maybe it is. Maybe the current spike only last for a few 100th of a microsecond. The curve would be a totally different shape then whats depicted by this company BS graphs. Also, it takes longer than several microseconds to charge up the filter capacitors used in electronics power supplies so any advantages of this chord is lost to the chargiing times of the filter capacitors.

i think their pulling this out of their collective ar?es.

I think you have done two things quite well. You have shown what is wrong with their claims, and you have shown that it is not "fraud", at least as far as we can tell from these few bits of information (they may, of course, have committed fraud in some other part of their website or advertisements, and they may have some of their irrelevant facts wrong as well which might constitute fraud).

So, they definitely seem to be sleazy, but what they are doing does not appear to be fraud. Basically, companies can say many misleading things that are not fraud, and therefore are not subject to violations of laws concerning fraud.

For those who are too lazy to click on the link I already provided:

Common law fraud has nine elements:[2][3]
  1. a representation of an existing fact;
  2. its materiality;
  3. its falsity;
  4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
  5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
  6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
  7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
  8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
  9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.
Most jurisdictions in the United States require that each element be pled with particularity and be proved with clear, cogent, and convincing evidence (very probable evidence) to establish a claim of fraud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

If only some of those apply, but not all of them, then it is not fraud. And that is forgotten in the normal everyday use of the term "fraud", which is broader and looser than the legal meaning of the term. Very often, unscrupulous people skirt the law by saying things that do not state any matter of fact, but appear to do so, or state irrelevant facts, as if they supported the conclusion that they want the buyer (or, equivalently, sucker) to believe. Neither meaningless sentences nor irrelevant facts constitute fraud, and so they are generally safe from prosecution with either of those approaches.
 
J

just listening

Audioholic
A new "Machine" is not necessary to measure these parameters.

I do this type of measurements all the time at work using off the shelf test equipment with traceable calibration and standardized testing methods.

The fact that they are not proves they are trying to hide something or are designing tests that only provide data to fit their preconceived results.
New testing equipment comes out every day in various fields in order to improve upon current measuring equipment as well as to specifically target new areas as defined by engineer/scientist.

I'm willing to be open to see both the white paper and hopefully, what independent studies say.

3db
You bring up four points of contention. Let me reply based upon my opinion of this topic.

1. No such instrument exists. It doesn't show up in google searches anywhere.
They just developed this device, chances are you won't find it via Google. Do you realize how many measuring devices sit in basement labs of universities that have name but aren't found by googling? Thousands.

2. No references are made to the length of the cables subjected to this test nor is the diameter of the cables ever mentioned.

3. Both graphs fail to indicate a valid x axes. Sure its labelled in mircoseconds but how many mircoseconds have passed. One million microseconds = 1 second.

4. The Y axes on the voltage graph is missing absolute voltage. There isn't any scale of measure.

I agree 100%, more information is required. They are good questions that the white paper must answer.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The ad shows some vague graphs of measurements they claimed to have made. These graphs are shown in some greater detail if you click on the various links near the top. But what they mean is still left to the reader's imagination.

Most importantly, the ad said nothing about whether these measurable differences of current or voltage made an audible difference in listening tests. To bring all this back to the question of fraud in advertising, they never made any claim that their products actually made any audible difference. They might like gullible readers to believe that, but they never said it.
 
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M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Well, it's certainly an impressive ad.

But, I have no fargin' idea what they are saying and showing me. It's just a bunch of numbers that I cannot correlate to a real-world situation, much less whether it's audible or not.

For all I know these may have no bearing on any situation that's audible to any mortal being. It may be measurable, but audible is an entirely different matter.

To put it simply, if they can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullsh!t. ...there's a lot of this in this hobby.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Another component that is missing is the power source. Are these cables plugged into a standard 20amp wall outlet with a $6 circuit breaker and 45ft of 12 gauge romex or is it off off a $3000 power conditioner or a large azz bank of batteries?

What is "pulsed transient current" (a google search really doesn't show anything)? It's smacks like some of the made up terms Ray Kimber uses.

As long as they produce a paper that can stand up to peer review with the end result being a reproducable audible difference I am ok with it.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
In order to be charged with fraud, it must be clear that they intended to defraud people. "Get it while you can" or "Jump on the specialty cable BS bandwagon" are just being opportunistic unless there is some way to prove the company or person had a plan to sell and not deliver or deliver something different from what they described. Bait and switch, pyramid schemes, etc are fraud but I think this is seen as not important enough by the FTC. However, if the FTC gets enough complaints, I think they may look into these issues.
 
sawzalot

sawzalot

Audioholic Samurai
Is there no end to the snake oil people try to sell.
Probably not. However take note of post #3 if I can be of assistance to you pm me and I will have these ready before the next high tide, free shipping as well.
I warranguawantee that your set up will sound significantly better through any testing you see fit to apply. Act now and I will send the original true wave length shells that allow the user to still hear the oceans subtle roar when your HT is not in use, hurry these won't last long. Peace, sawz. :)
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
The stock power cord delivers only 47% of available current compared to 84% with a Venom-3 power cord.
http://www.shunyata.com/Images/DTCD/CableComp-LG.jpg

It looks like the 'Available Current' is 275 Amps. If the 'Stock' cord 'only' delivers 125 Amps, that's more than 105+ Amps, and more than any of us will ever need for a piece of our equipment.
Sounds like they've fixed a non-existent problem.:rolleyes:
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Wouldn't it be interesting to find out what the gauge of the stock power cord is compared to theirs?
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
The stock power cord delivers only 47% of available current compared to 84% with a Venom-3 power cord.
http://www.shunyata.com/Images/DTCD/CableComp-LG.jpg

It looks like the 'Available Current' is 275 Amps. If the 'Stock' cord 'only' delivers 125 Amps, that's more than 105+ Amps, and more than any of us will ever need for a piece of our equipment.
Sounds like they've fixed a non-existent problem.:rolleyes:
Yes, when you plug your massive amp that draws more than 125 amps, into a circuit that will give you more than that, then it will matter. What is the ordinary circuit in one's home, 15 or maybe 20 amps? Where the hell are you going to be able to plug the thing in to get that more than 125 amps? And let us see that amplifier that can draw that much current!

Of course, it is easy to get a greater current capacity from a wire, and it is not magic. It is simply to use a larger gauge of wire. But when the wire can deal with more than the amplifier could possibly draw anyway, it is big enough and bigger is not going to help. A wire that can handle 125 amps (or even quite a bit less) will be good enough for any power cord for any device that plugs into an ordinary house circuit.

This is an example of dealing with irrelevant facts to try to sucker fools into parting with their money.
 

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