Why Audio Amplifiers Can Sound Different

Do you think amplifiers can sound different?

  • Yes. Count me in!

    Votes: 27 77.1%
  • No way, not unless they are being overdriven.

    Votes: 5 14.3%
  • What did you say? I can't hear too good.

    Votes: 3 8.6%

  • Total voters
    35
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord

I completely agree, and that includes me. Even in sighted direct comparisons I have trouble discerning between most electronics. The problem is that for long-term listening I find that I suffer much less from listening fatigue with some electronics than I do with others, especially amplifiers. That tells me that blind testing might be masking critical information. I might just be imagining things, but I can't explain the effect any other way.
I have similar experience, I mean seriously I do. Like you said though, it could be just imagining. I would love to hear from a good psychiatrist on whether by knowing the amp in use should not sound as good due to technical, theoretical and other reasons, could lead to induced fatigue after some long and serious auditioning sessions. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Simple statements like "how come a subtle difference disappears when you are prevented from peeking" is one side of the coin & it ignores the other side.

Nobody is denying that some sighted differences disappear when blind tested. Now there are two possibilities in this outcome - the perceived difference isn't real & the blind test correctly uncovered this - the perceived difference is real & the blind test masked this (called a false negative)- the challenge is to find out which is correct.

In order to test this you cannot use a test that has no measure of the level of false positives the test returns. The ABX test is one such test.

In order to determine whether a test result is correct or a false negative one needs to know the sensitivity of the test. To determine the sensitivity of a test requires one to know both the false positive & false negative levels.

This is why BS.1116 has the following recommendation on the use of internal controls in blind tests
I am not one who believes blind tests are the answer. What I do believe is that such tests are more than adequate to prove there are no night and day kind of differences between lots of well made pre-amps and power amps.
 
J

jkenny

Enthusiast
I am not one who believes blind tests are the answer. What I do believe is that such tests are more than adequate to prove there are no night and day kind of differences between lots of well made pre-amps and power amps.
Yes, I agree but I want to qualify this & maybe by the end of reading this you will realise that I don't really agree

"night & day" is a loaded term often used to demean audiophiles. To the man in the street a "night & day" difference is the difference between a crystal radio & a modern radio. But when people get involved in a hobby small differences become amplified in rhetoric - it's the same with any hobby.

But there is a deeper aspect to this that I wanted to mention. I believe the phrase "night & day" often refers to the effect the music now has on us - the connection we now have with the recording - in essence it signifies that what we are listening to has become more realistic.

Now, auditory realism is far more complex then a simple change in frequency/ amplitude/ timing. Auditory realism is about how we perceive the audio spectrum of the real world & make sense of it. In other words how the brain processes the continuous stream of aural frequencies, amplitude & timing signals coming from both ears through the auditory cortex. In the same way as our visual system process the visual signals coming from both eyes & creates a visual scene in which are placed visual objects, our auditory system does the same. This is an active area of research called Auditory Scene Analysis (ASA) which is working towards establishing how the brain analyses the signals to produce a stable auditory scene with auditory objects.

ASA is not simple, as you might have guessed. How we establish an auditory scene & auditory objects in it is done by the brain analysing the relationships between elements in the continual signal stream & identifying relationships between certain parts of the signal stream which it groups together as coming from the one object & so on to form all the auditory objects that we create in what we hear & together this forms the auditory scene.

This is a continually shifting/modulating signal stream coming from the ears so there is continual analysis happening in real time. It correlates different parts of the signal across different time spans in the audio stream - in other words, it's not an instant decision it takes time to create an auditory object & scene & it continually adjusts this based on the new information arriving in the signal. This requires processing energy & also is stressful. Stressful in the sense that we never have enough information in the signal stream to be 100% sure of the auditory objects so all sorts of extra help is brought to bear on this ill-defined problem. We use visual cues - so for instance we look at a person's lips when they are talking as an aid to understanding what they are saying (particularly when there is a noisy background). In fact the whole study of this arose from what is called the "cocktail party effect" - the ability to follow a conversation among many others in a noisy party. We use our knowledge of the world - our past experience of how audio behaves in the world, etc. We use all sorts of extra information to fill in any void in the information that can be ascertained from the auditory signal. And there are always voids in the information - it is always an ill-defined problem - so we are always making a best guesstimate of the most likely solution & coming up with the most plausible scene.

ASA, is a research area still working on all of this & although some progress has been made since 1990 when Bregman published the theory/model, there is still a lot to be worked out about how our auditory perception works.

So here's where I get back to the idea about "subtle" changes Vs "night & day" changes. I think if you judge the sound using how realistic it is i.e relaxed listening to the full playback, you may well decide that it sounds much more realistic than what you heard before. This might even take a number of listens to different music over time to be sure about this because it's not a directly sensed immediate difference - it's more a realisation that you are picking up more auditory clues in the performance - maybe you can hear the interplay of the performers better or the acoustic space better? This assumes that the recordings have captured these aspects. This realism is the result of a steady auditory scene with easy to follow auditory objects within it. If something disturbs this rendition of the auditory scene i.e. one of the known ASA rules (or some of the unknown ones) is contravened in some way, we get a temporary break in the auditory scene & an immediate new rebuilding of the auditory scene. This is a subconscious event - we don't hear anything collapse - our perception adjusts to it subconsciously. But if this happens too much (& I don't know what too much is) when listening, I believe it gives rise to fatigue.

Now ask someone who has experienced a system that is more realistic or a system that is fatiguing to do a blind test to identify the playback he finds most realistic & I bet he will not be able to do it. I know the proponents of blind testing will say that he can listen for as long as he wants in a blind test - there is no need to do quick A/B switching & I would imagine this could be done but I imagine it's a very difficult test to pass successfully

My point is that "night & day" as judged from long term listening can change into "subtle" in blind testing if there are actually freq, amplitude or timing differences that can be identified in quick A/B switching. If there are no readily identifiable instant A/B differences then the task gets very much harder. Are there some people who could identify this - maybe a few but they need training in how to listen & what to listen for & probably a lot of experience in doing blind tests?
 
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RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Aha, as RichB guessed - you are a HA member but using a different member name here. Care to tell us your member name on HA?
I have been so busy of late, perhaps I am sleep posting :D

- Rich
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I am not one who believes blind tests are the answer. What I do believe is that such tests are more than adequate to prove there are no night and day kind of differences between lots of well made pre-amps and power amps.
I agree about well made amps.

But it is also fair to say that a blind test on that day may produce useful data about that group of people, in that room, with those speakers. Then again, it might have more to do with what they had to eat or more importantly drink. :D

I'll hazard a guess that even the most ardent supporters of blind testing, still trust their ears.

On the other hand, there was a poster on AVS that stated that he has purchased CD players from $500 to $4000 and can't hear the difference between any of them. Talk about taking one for team.:D :p

- Rich
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
jk, so in short when people say night and day we should ask them to narrow their meaning down first.:D
 
J

jkenny

Enthusiast
Rich
That poster would do well to read up on "change blindness" or "inattentional deafness"
We all know the visual equivalent of this - the video where we are asked to count the number of times a basketball is passed around a group of people constantly moving & due to our attention on this task many people miss the guy dressed as a gorilla that walks across the video

There is an audio equivalent of this too which "apes" (sorry about that) this effect in the audio world. It is a binaural recording of a group of people (male & female) involved in preparing for a party & we are asked to listen to the conversation of the females in the audio. In this situation a number of people miss the guy who walks across the audio space repeating "I'm a gorilla"

The paper abstract is here called "Gorillas we have missed: Sustained inattentional deafness for dynamic events"

I know it's nothing new - the fact that we can easily miss significant differences if focussed on differences elsewhere but what this paper shows is a SUSTAINED inattentional deafness - something that wasn't tested before.
 
J

jkenny

Enthusiast
jk, so in short when people say night and day we should ask them to narrow their meaning down first.:D
Yes, I agree, the phrase needs qualification - which is it "night" or "day" :p

Perceptual differences that effect the whole music portrayal may well be very difficult to isolate & identify as a specific audible difference in a small snippet of music.

I'm of the opinion that blind testing is only really successful when a specific difference has been isolated & can be heard in a small audio snippet. I believe that trying to compare two full tracks is doomed to failure due to the nature of how our perceptions work. It's like trying to compare the visual difference between two colours - the most successful way is to have the two colours side by.The least successful way is to show one colour, remove it & then show another colour.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes, I agree, the phrase needs qualification - which is it "night" or "day" :p

Perceptual differences that effect the whole music portrayal may well be very difficult to isolate & identify as a specific audible difference in a small snippet of music.

I'm of the opinion that blind testing is only really successful when a specific difference has been isolated & can be heard in a small audio snippet. I believe that trying to compare two full tracks is doomed to failure due to the nature of how our perceptions work. It's like trying to compare the visual difference between two colours - the most successful way is to have the two colours side by.The least successful way is to show one colour, remove it & then show another colour.
I tend to agree to a point but I believe most people can tell the difference in sq between mp3 and cd sound quality without even trying. I can also tell the difference between my different speakers when comparing them side by side without trying hard, yet I still won't call it night and day. At the end of the day, I accept the fact that it is just an expression, one that has a range of meaning.
 
J

jkenny

Enthusiast
I tend to agree to a point but I believe most people can tell the difference in sq between mp3 and cd sound quality without even trying. I can also tell the difference between my different speakers when comparing them side by side without trying hard, yet I still won't call it night and day. At the end of the day, I accept the fact that it is just an expression, one that has a range of meaning.
Sure, people involved in a hobby tend to exaggerate differences - it's part & parcel of how hobbyists differentiate themselves from others :)

I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about - a while ago, I heard DSD played through a Lampizator Big 7 & compared to the same recording in PCM played through the lampizator, the DSD was more realistic & solid sounding - just much more musical sounding. Loud & subtle sounds each seemed to be independent in the soundstage whereas, I wouldn't have complained about the PCM playback but compared to DSD it sounded strident in HF when things got busy - it seemed the busyness affected all of the sounds in the sound field
 
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J

jkenny

Enthusiast
Here's an example of what I'm talking about - "Perceptual differences that effect the whole music portrayal may well be very difficult to isolate & identify as a specific audible difference in a small snippet of music."

In this case, the ABX tester was/is a recording professional & yet here are some comments from his successful identification of 16/44 Vs 24/192 differences

I suspect that a lot of the audible differences between devices fall into this category. No longer are there too many examples of frequency/amplitude differences between devices.

Keeping my attention focused for a proper aural listening posture is brutal. It is VERY easy to drift into listening for frequency domains--which is usually the most productive approach when recording and mixing. Instead I try to focus on depth of the soundstage, the sound picture I think I can hear. The more 3D it seems, the better.
Caveats--Program material is crucial. Anything that did not pass through the air on the way to the recording material, like ITB synth tracks, I'm completely unable to detect; only live acoustic sources give me anything to work with. So for lots of published material, sample rates really don't matter--and they surely don't matter to me for that material. However, this result is also strong support for a claim that I'm detecting a phenomenon of pure sample rate/word length difference, and not just incidental coloration induced by processing. The latter should be detectable on all program material with sufficient freq content.
Also, these differences ARE small, and hard to detect. I did note that I was able to speed up my decision process as time went on, but only gradually. It's a difference that's analogous to the difference between a picture just barely out of focus, and one that's sharp focused throughout--a holistic impression. For casual purposes, a picture that focused "enough" will do--in Marketing, that's 'satisficing'. But of course I always want more.
I can't post my actual files here without copyright violation, but I'll give the info:
For the first two, I just used a track from a CD I purchased recently, "Groove Tube" by a Japanese artist who goes by "MEG", from her album 'Room Girl'. It's Redbook Audio, of course, and I used SoundForge 10 which comes with a resampler by Izotope that I used to go to 192 kHz, and another tool also by Izotope which I used to go from 16 to 24 bits. There are some individual settings within those tools, I'll follow up with details. The usefulness of the program content was that it was 1) live miked and 2) complex with many elements carefully placed within a large soundstage.
In re "kind of artefact", I tried to listen for soundstage depth and accurate detail. It took a lot of training repetitions, and remains a holistic impression, not any single feature I can easily point to. It seems to me that the 192 files have the aural analogue of better focus. To train, I would try to hear *precisely* where in front of me particular sound features were located, in two dimensions: left-to-right, and closer-to-further away--the foobar tool would then allow me to match up which two were easier to precisely locate. I know it muddies the waters, but I also had a very holistic impression of sound (uhhhhhh) 'texture'??--in which the 192 file was smoother/silkier/richer. The 192 is easier on the ears (just slightly) over time; with good sound reproduction through quality headphones (DT 770) through quality interface (RME Babyface) I can listen for quite a while without ear fatigue, even on material that would normally be considered pretty harsh (capsule's 'Starry Sky', for example), and which *does* wear me out over time when heard via Redbook audio.
I realize that the ABX only reveals that *something* is detected that allows me to identify the proper pairs. No one need take my word for it that I'm listening for and hearing spatial detail--but that is in fact what I'm doing, so folks can take it or leave it in that respect.

I will note that IF it were the case that a consistent artifact/distortion is being added to the signal, then it would also have to be the case that this artifact would be detectable in all tested content. But this is not the case. If there's not soundstage depth present in a live-recorded signal on the disk, then I can't score above random guessing in foobar, period. It IS the fact that I can detect the difference on some, but not others.
Practice improves performance. To reach 99.8% statistical reliability, and to do so more quickly (this new one was done in about 1/3 the time required for the trials listed above in the thread), I mainly have to train my concentration.

It is *very* easy to get off on a tangent, listening for a certain brightness or darkness, for the timbre balance in one part, several parts, or all--this immediately introduces errors, even though this type of listening is much more likely to be what I am and need to be doing when recording and mixing a new track.

Once I am able to repeatedly focus just on spatial focus/accuracy--4 times in a row, for X & Y, and A & B--then I can hit the target. Get lazy even one time, miss the target.
It took me a **lot** of training. I listened for a dozen wrong things before I settled on the aspects below.
The difference I hear is NOT tonal quality (I certainly don't claim to hear above 22 kHz). I would describe it as spatial depth, spatial precision, spatial detail. The higher resolution file seems to me to have a dimensional soundstage that is in *slightly* better focus. I have to actively concentrate on NOT looking for freq balance and tonal differences, as those will lead you astray every time. I actively try to visualize the entire soundstage and place every musical element in it. When I do that, I can get the difference. It's *very* easy to drift into mix engineer mode and start listening for timbres--this ruins the series every time. Half the battle is just concentrating on spatial perception ONLY
I initially found training my ears to find a difference very difficult. It's *very* easy to go toward listening for tonal changes, which does not help. I get reliable results only when trying to visualize spatial detail and soundstage size, and I tend to get results in streaks. I get distracted by imaginary tonal differences, and have to get back on track by concentrating only on the perceived space and accuracy of the soundstage image.
 
J

jkenny

Enthusiast
I followed up this guy's (Ultmusicsnob) posts on Head-fi to see if he had done other listening tests as he is an interesting expert listener. I wanted to see what else he may have differentiated in ABX tests & found his posts on a "jitter audibility" thread

What all his posts demonstrate to me is something that I've reckoned about ABX tests - very difficult to do them successfully :
- it's a different type of listening to "normal" listening
- it requires very good skills at forensic analysis of the two audio samples before being able to pick out the audio snippet that allows consistent identification
- it requires very focussed concentration to maintain the characteristic being listened for
- it requires specific, selected audio files to use as source.

Look at the number of others on these two threads that are also able to differentiate the differences ultmusicsnob can - none

Further quotes from him:
I have to think it's not about fidelity of the equipment, it's figuring out what to listen for. Listening for jitter is *unlike* other ABX comparisons I've done before. If it helps, I try to imagine the sharpest focus of sound in terms of how "narrow" I can hear the piano attack, as though it were a spatial measure. The narrower attack is 'n'. It is difficult because I'm continually tempted to chase mirages of differences in other details. If I stick to "focus" and "narrow" I get a result.
Congrats, UltMusicSnob, for doing so well on that test. I can't help but notice that you had to "game" the test to achieve your results. That is, you had to "listen" in an unusual way pretty much wholly removed from how one would normally listen to music. With all respect, is this a tacit admission that the "added jitter" track would have been indistinguishable absent the gaming?

Well, I will insist on the caveat that *all* ABX testing is of a sort pretty much wholly removed from how one would normally listen to music. The protocol can't be completed otherwise. The *only* time I ever listened like that in real life was when I was trying to hear John Lennon say "I bury Paul" at the end of "Strawberry Fields".
That said,

Yes, my first research question is usually "Is differentiation possible at all???", and so I use the tools available to hunt for the differences.

It was particularly difficult in this case, as I don't have a good sense of what problematic jitter *ought* to sound like, and it matters what testers are listening for.

Since I can pick out a difference on one snare hit, a further refinement would be to listen more 'casually', and see if the drum set sounds different throughout.



I'm guessing that the added jitter track would have been indistinguishable for this particular music, but it's faintly conceivable that interested listeners could learn to hear the difference without the procedures I described.
 
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