which is the best way to break in surrounds and center speakers?

[R-Carpenter]

Since measuring equipment has capacity to measure small changes, it probably measures differently, but is it audible?
And, as Richard Pierce, a well regarded speaker person, after speakers sit, it returns to its original numbers or very close. So, it is a moving, dynamic target.
The real question is audibility. Who can hear it under bias controlled condition? Anyone on the planet? If not, It has no meaning the the listener, just another audio hype.
ps. Tom Nousaine measured drivers as you indicated, actually he measured it after 150 hrs:

Nousaine, Tom, 'Breaking Wind,' Car Stereo Review, Jan/Feb 1997, pg 90-94.

Nousaine, Tom 'Test Report: Dynaudio MW 190, 12" Subwoofer,' Car Stereo Review, Oct 1997, pg 83-88.

Some parameters went up, others went down, yet, it was not audible.

Same Tom Nousaine will tell you that components in a double blind listening test have to be matched to 0.1 db for the test to be correct, meaning that anything over 0.1 db is audible. Am I being on the correct track here?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Same Tom Nousaine will tell you that components in a double blind listening test have to be matched to 0.1 db for the test to be correct, meaning that anything over 0.1 db is audible. Am I being on the correct track here?

Not really. The reason for that 0.1dB is to make sure, level differences is not a factor. In music, you will just not hear a 0.2dB and most likely even a 0.5dB. Also, the JND detection with sensitive test tones is about 0.2dB in mid band frequencies. Yet, with music, it is higher and at frequency ends, JND is 1dB or higher.
Similar to other real testing, you want your test gear to measure below what you are after, not just to it.

 

[mr_ro_co]

FMV, I'm not confused, I just don't know the "facts" to support either hypothesis. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm here to learn. I'm not trying to sell anything or to convince anyone.

So far, you have not described what was done in your experiment...


That can work both ways. When you install new suspensions and springs, the car will be higher than normal, after a while, the springs looses some of it initial stiffness and only then will the car be at normal height. See the analogy?

I think it would be more productive if you all posted some actual information, instead of just saying you made some test and proved this matter right or wrong. That would help to convince (and educate) the skeptics, like me

The car's ride height should be restored to the normal original if the exact same specification springs and components (dampers, sway bars, etc.) are replaced. Reduced ride height takes place over a long time frame. It takes a long time for a spring to lose compliance - it is a gradual process. This wear. Not break-in. The same thing happens to speakers. They slowly change over time due to wear. And just like a car's suspension, they are a tad stiffer and more damped for the first few seconds of use, after which they perform at their normal baseline.

Frankly, my car suspension analogy is really not as good as I’d like. I’m sure there is a break-in event that occurs where there is actual friction between materials. On a car’s suspension, this exists at ball joints and bushings and within the dampers. So I’m afraid my analogy is weak after all. In loudspeaker drivers, there is functionally no rubbing friction between materials. Therefore no break-in. And this has been verified by several very well conducted experiments by conducted by the likes of Pierce, Nousaine, etc.

In any event, the burden of proof is not on me. It’s on the credulous person making or indulging the claim of loudspeaker break-in, then demanding that those who contradict this position prove otherwise. I am not here to do your bidding. I am not here waiting for you to give me work to do. Especially when the door on this tired audiophile myth has been shut over and over by the experts, who have now been referred to multiple times.

What’s really happening with this perceived loudspeaker break in thing is that a person’s hearing becomes accustomed to the loudspeaker. This is a well known phenomena and manufacturers use it to their advantage. The only thing that is “breaking in” are your ears.

 

[Alex2507]

Even though I've said welcome and thanks before, I mean it more this time.

 

[R-Carpenter]

I am actually not demanding anything at all. It's you who says: I am an expert, don't bother me with your measurements, I also cannot be bothered with proving anything because I am right and you are wrong.
Go argue with D'Appolito, Mr.Expert.

Testing Loudspeakers
by Joseph D'Appolito
first edition 1998

page 17
2.6.1 Testing Preliminaries
The suspension on the driver will loosen up with use, and therefor, its parameters will shift. In order to account for this, it is important that all drivers be broken-in before testing. This can be accomplished by suspending the driver in free air and driving it with a power amplifier at a frequency in the 20-25hz range. The driver level should be set for moderate cone travel. Be careful not to overdrive the speaker or physical damage may result. Brake in the driver for at list one hour.
Longer periods may be needed. Some manufacturers specify their driver parameters after eight and even 24 hours break-in.


BTW I am not arguing over the audibility of brake-in, but measurably of it dear Professor.

 

[jamie2112]

Are we really still talking abou...............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[mtrycrafts]

Are we really still talking abou...............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Hey, we are still talking about homeopathy, in some circles anyhow, and a whole bunch of other legends and myths

 

[mtrycrafts]

please note my response

Yes, I did. Just a comment on that manual's suggestion

 

[mtrycrafts]

... In any event, the burden of proof is not on me. It’s on the credulous person making or indulging the claim of loudspeaker break-in, then demanding that those who contradict this position prove otherwise. I am not here to do your bidding. I am not here waiting for you to give me work to do. Especially when the door on this tired audiophile myth has been shut over and over by the experts, who have now been referred to multiple times.

What’s really happening with this perceived loudspeaker break in thing is that a person’s hearing becomes accustomed to the loudspeaker. This is a well known phenomena and manufacturers use it to their advantage. The only thing that is “breaking in” are your ears.

Welcome to the board

Audio myths, like other myths in consumerland, never seem to die, nor fade away like old soldiers They just seem eternal

As you pointed out the weakness of your auto analogy, I cringe every time I see audio compared to a car

 

[Adam]

...I cringe every time I see audio compared to a car

Amps are like engines.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I am actually not demanding anything at all. It's you who says: I am an expert, don't bother me with your measurements, I also cannot be bothered with proving anything because I am right and you are wrong.
Go argue with D'Appolito, Mr.Expert.

Testing Loudspeakers
by Joseph D'Appolito
first edition 1998

page 17
2.6.1 Testing Preliminaries
The suspension on the driver will loosen up with use, and therefor, its parameters will shift. In order to account for this, it is important that all drivers be broken-in before testing. This can be accomplished by suspending the driver in free air and driving it with a power amplifier at a frequency in the 20-25hz range. The driver level should be set for moderate cone travel. Be careful not to overdrive the speaker or physical damage may result. Brake in the driver for at list one hour.
Longer periods may be needed. Some manufacturers specify their driver parameters after eight and even 24 hours break-in.


BTW I am not arguing over the audibility of brake-in, but measurably of it dear Professor.

I suppose he cannot be wrong, or most likely what he is referring to is to measure a driver in a warm state, like most gear is measured in a warm state.
What happens when those measured parameters return to their original cold parameters after they have rested as Pierce has measured and stated?

 

[zumbo]

Amps are like engines.

Preamps are like steering and suspension systems. They are in charge of controlling the power.

 

[Adam]

Preamps are like steering and suspension systems. They are in charge of controlling the power.

Speakers are like tires, they...ummm...oh, forget it.

 

[zumbo]

I suppose he cannot be wrong, or most likely what he is referring to is to measure a driver in a warm state, like most gear is measured in a warm state.
What happens when those measured parameters return to their original cold parameters after they have rested as Pierce has measured and stated?

Much like measuring tire pressure.

 

[Adam]

Much like measuring tire pressure.

Hahaha! Excellent. Poor mtrycrafts.

 

[zumbo]

Speakers are like tires, they...ummm...oh, forget it.

I was thinking more like the complete power train. In charge of putting the power to action.

 

[R-Carpenter]

I suppose he cannot be wrong, or most likely what he is referring to is to measure a driver in a warm state, like most gear is measured in a warm state.
What happens when those measured parameters return to their original cold parameters after they have rested as Pierce has measured and stated?

Well, I think He's pretty clear about what he's saying. And no, anyone can be wrong, including D'Appolito or Pierce or You or ME. I just don't like absolutist statements.
I've had results with slight changes in FR and Q of the DUT. Don't remember how loNg I waited for the coil to cool off but there was small difference. It's not a second hand knowledge, it's what I got. Perhaps the very few drivers that I've measured were defective, perhaps the voltage fluctuated in line or the alien spaceship was passing by and affected the test, who knows but let's not mix together an audiophile who will listen to a slam and a paste of the speaker and poor little guy like me who's going to run MLS on the speakers that he designs and build including pretty fancy cabinet and veneer work and actually tries to understand the science behind it. But hey what do I know, you are the expert.



Speaker is the EXHAUST!!! What do you guys know!

 

[zumbo]

JL break-in:

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In case no one has said this yet, the best way to break-in new speakers is to play a lot of your favorite movies and music and enjoy the heck out of them.

 

[mr_ro_co]

I am actually not demanding anything at all. It's you who says: I am an expert, don't bother me with your measurements, I also cannot be bothered with proving anything because I am right and you are wrong.
Go argue with D'Appolito, Mr.Expert.

Testing Loudspeakers
by Joseph D'Appolito
first edition 1998

page 17
2.6.1 Testing Preliminaries
The suspension on the driver will loosen up with use, and therefor, its parameters will shift. In order to account for this, it is important that all drivers be broken-in before testing. This can be accomplished by suspending the driver in free air and driving it with a power amplifier at a frequency in the 20-25hz range. The driver level should be set for moderate cone travel. Be careful not to overdrive the speaker or physical damage may result. Brake in the driver for at list one hour.
Longer periods may be needed. Some manufacturers specify their driver parameters after eight and even 24 hours break-in.


BTW I am not arguing over the audibility of brake-in, but measurably of it dear Professor.

Belittling sarcasm is usually a strong indicator that a person's argument has run its course.

You are not satisfied that there exist well known studies on this subject conducted by eminent experts such as **** Pierce. Add guys like John Dunlavy to the list, who would exhaustively test drivers. He states that any driver break-in usually happens incidentally by simply measuring them. You dismiss them and instead hold fast to D'Appolito because he supports your position. Who's next? Vance Dickason? As much respect as I have for Mr. D'Appolito, I unfortunately think he is a bit off here. But even he states that it only takes an hour to accomplish this "break-in," where the other experts say it takes 1 minute or even less. My experience measuring drivers with the MLSSA and LMS systems are in alignment with this. Any other permanent changes in driver parameters over time are due to wear, damage, environmental effects, or some combination of all three. Not "break-in."

I don't really care if I persuade you on this topic. And yes, you are right. I absolutely cannot be bothered to prove anything to you. I don't owe you anything. This thread regards a well known technical myth. You support it. The burden of “proving” anything here is your job. Not mine. I and others here have referred several times now to the sources of the definitive findings on this subject. Since I don’t work for you, why don’t you go consult those documents yourself?