Which brand makes the best quality loudspeakers?

[Klipschhead302]

A youtube video of a speaker audition is a misleading demo, period. "90% accurate"? It is an extremely poor way to get a handle on a speaker's sound. You can not properly judge how a speaker sounds from a Youtube video. It is not even close. In my list of reasons why it can't suffice, I did not even get into the audiological problems ie how your ears register sound, which is not much like a microphone. A microphone is no substitute for your ears, and the list of reasons why that is so is also the list of reasons why a Youtube video can not be a proxy for a speaker audition. It would be a big list, and I don't have time to get into it at the moment.

Damn and I thought my Dell Precision M5510 laptop was accurately demonstrating the speakers people were posting on YouTube!

I do enjoy some of the music people post there for my listening pleasure but for people to say they can accurately evaluate how a speaker performs by watching a video cracks me up. I've watched many of those videos, a few of the Elac B6's and obviously even on Elac B6's the B6's sound different for obvious reasons.

You can lead a horse to water but....

 

[Electone]

KEF, then Mission

 

[Mechanizmo]

PBN Montana Loudspeakers should be on that list, but they are not well know because they use little to no advertising with only a handful of dealers worldwide.

This survey should read:

" Out of the brands you heard of, and had a chance to listen to, which of the following do you think sounds the best? "

 

[gzubeck]

Damn and I thought my Dell Precision M5510 laptop was accurately demonstrating the speakers people were posting on YouTube!

I do enjoy some of the music people post there for my listening pleasure but for people to say they can accurately evaluate how a speaker performs by watching a video cracks me up. I've watched many of those videos, a few of the Elac B6's and obviously even on Elac B6's the B6's sound different for obvious reasons.

You can lead a horse to water but....

Problem is that most people are not understanding what I'm looking for in those youtube videos. First there are different levels of qualities between videos. That said I can hear enough of the speaker to kind of understand If I'd be interested in investigating it further. Most setups are horrible even if they are showing $5,000 speakers at a trade show. There are a few youtubers that actually do a fair job in showing demos that would make me interested or not interested in a type of speaker. If your looking for a perfect demo its not gonna happen...your getting a facsimile...but I can hear minor differences between speakers. I build my own speakers with my own crossovers and have played around enough to have a good understanding... for example I like Kenricks jbl mods of 4343 and also like that the JBLs have the ports close to the woofers away from the midrange. I can tell the difference in quality videos when the ports are closer to the mids are not to my liking...this is one example...sure its not perfect but then I'm not travelling all over the place checking out speakers that I'm not interested in at all...

 

[gzubeck]

This thread has degenerated into one of the daftest discussions we have ever had, and we have had some pointless ones lately.

Clearly if you record a speaker, with excellent microphones you will record that speakers plus the environmental contributions of the room. That can only be denied with alternative facts.

Now if you play it back on another set of speakers or headphones, it can't be better than the reproducing speakers or headphones. In fact it will have the additive effect of the errors of the playback system, phones or speaker. If speakers then you have two room acoustic errors to add.

As a means of speaker evaluation this does not go beyond the laugh test!

This sort of nonsense we have lately I fear is driving away a lot of good long term members.

If that gzubeck chap never makes another post here, it can do nothing but elevate the forum.

I actually think we must bring the hammer down quicker on people who can't indulge in logical discourse.

Your voting for censorship rather than debate. I build and design my own speakers and crossovers just as you do. Unless you do massive sound processing all rooms muck up the sound. So basically we're all slaves to the rooms in which we plant our speakers in without additional help. I'll tell you how this all started...it started because some idiot said youtube could not determine any kind of qualitative aspect of a type of speaker and I replied that you can't really hear anything on a $20 computer speakers. A photocopy of a photocopy is going to have degradation but you can tell some things about the item but not everything. If we held a demo between Magnesium drivers, natural fiber drivers, or Electrostatic drivers I can tell from the video If I might like them or not. That is all I'm concerned with...I fully understand what people are talking about live demos but I am saying that some youtube are useful for what I'm interested in...

 

[rojo]

Your voting for censorship rather than debate. I build and design my own speakers and crossovers just as you do. Unless you do massive sound processing all rooms muck up the sound. So basically we're all slaves to the rooms in which we plant our speakers in without additional help. I'll tell you how this all started...it started because some idiot said youtube could not determine any kind of qualitative aspect of a type of speaker and I replied that you can't really hear anything on a $20 computer speakers. A photocopy of a photocopy is going to have degradation but you can tell some things about the item but not everything. If we held a demo between Magnesium drivers, natural fiber drivers, or Electrostatic drivers I can tell from the video If I might like them or not. That is all I'm concerned with...I fully understand what people are talking about live demos but I am saying that some youtube are useful for what I'm interested in...

There is no voting. There is no debate. There is no opinion. There is simply what is, and you are unwilling to listen to reason and unable to provide any proof to back up your claims as we have. There are 5 solid reasons explaining why you're wrong detailed at http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/youtube-listening-demos . If your only response is some nebulous claim that you can hear "something", then either cite reputable sources or provide quantitative evidence to support your fantasy, or stfu. Your ignorance of the difference between "your" and "you're" doesn't help your case either.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Voting for censorship? Only of ridiculous flights of fancy, and delusional ideas. I'll tell YOU how it started...some idiot said you CAN hear a qualitative difference in speakers via YouTube. Idiotic claims like these, I might expect from my teenager, but not a rational adult.
+tlsguy
+rojo, and good link.

 

[Pogre]

Problem is that most people are not understanding what I'm looking for in those youtube videos. First there are different levels of qualities between videos. That said I can hear enough of the speaker to kind of understand If I'd be interested in investigating it further. Most setups are horrible even if they are showing $5,000 speakers at a trade show. There are a few youtubers that actually do a fair job in showing demos that would make me interested or not interested in a type of speaker. If your looking for a perfect demo its not gonna happen...your getting a facsimile...but I can hear minor differences between speakers. I build my own speakers with my own crossovers and have played around enough to have a good understanding... for example I like Kenricks jbl mods of 4343 and also like that the JBLs have the ports close to the woofers away from the midrange. I can tell the difference in quality videos when the ports are closer to the mids are not to my liking...this is one example...sure its not perfect but then I'm not travelling all over the place checking out speakers that I'm not interested in at all...

I demoed my newest speakers in my living room. To me that's about as perfect a demo as you can get. I'd also much rather travel and hear the real thing than try a YouTube video. If you don't think you'll get a good audition listening to a live speaker, how on earth can a YouTube video, listened to with completely different speakers be any good at all?

Personally, if I were spending the kind of money on speakers as I have lately, I want to hear the real thing and am willing to drive a little or order risk free from an ID company to hear them for myself. IMO, a YouTube video is probably the poorest way to audition any speaker.

 

[gzubeck]

There is no voting. There is no debate. There is no opinion. There is simply what is, and you are unwilling to listen to reason and unable to provide any proof to back up your claims as we have. There are 5 solid reasons explaining why you're wrong detailed at http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/youtube-listening-demos . If your only response is some nebulous claim that you can hear "something", then either cite reputable sources or provide quantitative evidence to support your fantasy, or stfu. Your ignorance of the difference between "your" and "you're" doesn't help your case either.

After reading these 5 reasons I can understand that audioholics is running a cult...

"Equipment Differences"...I already explained that you can't hear anything good with $20 computer speakers. I use expensive sony BT headphones with my laptop...I don't use cheapy computer desktop speakers...

"Room Acoustics Differences"...I understand this to some degree but it's no excuse for everything north of 300 HZ. Maybe Audioholics does this for legal reasons alone but this should not prevent them from doing video demos.

"Microphones are Stupid"... The microphone on the other hand will just sum the direct and reflected sounds together ...This is fine...I'm ok with a quick demo and Understand this is happening in the demo. There are recording techniques that can alleviate some of this, but it takes multiple mic setups, DSP processing and knowledge of how to use. Most YouTubers are simply NOT going to do that. We certainly aren't.

I'm not looking for perfection from a youtube video. I'm looking at the general performance of different types of speakers (Electrostatic, ceramics drivers, paper drivers, AMT tweeters, etc.. I only really pay attention to individuals who do a good job of recording.

"YouTube Compression"...Garbage in garbage out...I use Netflix streaming service and I get spectacular audio from netflix shows...Netflix uses compression also but if your equipment can process the audio back out it should sound fine. Given that the audio sounds fairly good on youtube I'm wondering if this statement was made years ago.

Most of our listening demos consist of high resolution audio recordings such as DVD-A, SACD, or FLAC 192kHz/24bit. What the hell does this mean? Most people cannot hear anything substantial past 16 bit cd quality...whether your listening to high res audio or cd quality you should be able to determine if the speakers are operating properly. The crossovers are done correctly and the speakers are not overly bright....

Maybe this was done years ago and audioholics needs an update....

 

[gzubeck]

I demoed my newest speakers in my living room. To me that's about as perfect a demo as you can get. I'd also much rather travel and hear the real thing than try a YouTube video. If you don't think you'll get a good audition listening to a live speaker, how on earth can a YouTube video, listened to with completely different speakers be any good at all?

Personally, if I were spending the kind of money on speakers as I have lately, I want to hear the real thing and am willing to drive a little or order risk free from an ID company to hear them for myself. IMO, a YouTube video is probably the poorest way to audition any speaker.

I'm not using youtube to demo cheapy bestbuy speakers...I watch videos mostly of highend speakers like JBL, Beyma amt, electrostats etc. etc. This is kind of hard to drive to Japan and some former eastern bloc countries to hear different setups.... I build my own speakers....

 

[gzubeck]

Voting for censorship? Only of ridiculous flights of fancy, and delusional ideas. I'll tell YOU how it started...some idiot said you CAN hear a qualitative difference in speakers via YouTube. Idiotic claims like these, I might expect from my teenager, but not a rational adult.
+tlsguy
+rojo, and good link.

what claims am I making please re-iterate. I just read the five reasons for audioholics not doing videos and I'm embarrased for them. They're coming up with excuses not valid reason for today. Some of these reason might have been valid 5-10 years ago but not today. Your the one who should be ashamed.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

@tlsguy let me introduce you to ignore member forum function. It saves me a lot of sanity

 

[gzubeck]

@tlsguy let me introduce you to ignore member forum function. It saves me a lot of sanity

But your not sane. I just realized I'm posting in a forum of cult members. Half of the reasons listed are no longer valid and audioholics is doing a diservice to others.

 

[Pogre]

But your not sane. I just realized I'm posting in a forum of cult members. Half of the reasons listed are no longer valid and audioholics is doing a diservice to others.

I'm not usually one for picking on grammar and spelling, but your posts are making my ocd act up...

It's "disservice". 2 s'. If you're going to attempt an "intelligent" discussion, spelling correctly would lend some credibility to your posts.

 

[gzubeck]

I'm not usually one for picking on grammar and spelling, but your posts are making my ocd act up...

It's "disservice". 2 s'. If you're going to attempt an "intelligent" discussion, spelling correctly would lend some credibility to your posts.

Basically, right now I don't give a schiit about my spelling...way to pissed off to care anymore.

 

[shadyJ]

I am definitely not for muzzling anyone simply because their ideas are absurd. If you think that you can discern anything from a youtube demo of a speaker, that is fine, certainly no skin off my back. Illogical ideas should be argued against, which is what I have done, and after that, it doesn't matter anymore. Everyone holds some ideas that are not all that rational, and this one just happens to concern audio. It could be worse.

 

[Pogre]

Basically, right now I don't give a schiit about my spelling...way to pissed off to care anymore.

Yeah, I try not let forum comments "piss me off'". I have more important things in my life to put that energy into.

 

[gzubeck]

I am definitely not for muzzling anyone simply because their ideas are absurd. If you think that you can discern anything from a youtube demo of a speaker, that is fine, certainly no skin off my back. Illogical ideas should be argued against, which is what I have done, and after that, it doesn't matter anymore. Everyone holds some ideas that are not all that rational, and this one just happens to concern audio. It could be worse.

Whats not rational are the reasons that audioholics gave for not recording youtube videos. You have partial truths and truths that are valid ten years ago. And the biggest brain damaged idea is the super audio reason. Anybody worth their audio salt would know this as absolute truth.

 

[DHicks]

Wow...

 

[rojo]

After reading these 5 reasons I can understand that audioholics is running a cult...

The greater good.

"Equipment Differences"...I already explained that you can't hear anything good with $20 computer speakers. I use expensive sony BT headphones with my laptop...I don't use cheapy computer desktop speakers...

Still, there are limits to what your Sony BT headphones can reproduce. Complex polyphony can be challenging to single-driver cans, and might result in harmonic distortion that isn't measured with frequency sweeps, or might cause the treble to become choppy when sub bass is also playing. The videos you hear on YouTube will not overcome these problems, nor will they calibrate nor improve the head related transfer function of your Sony cans.

"Room Acoustics Differences"...I understand this to some degree but it's no excuse for everything north of 300 HZ. Maybe Audioholics does this for legal reasons alone but this should not prevent them from doing video demos.

This, plus the next point, are bigger problems than you realize. If you clap your hands in whatever room you happen to be in, how long does it take the sound to decay? A quarter second? At least with headphones you aren't combining your own room acoustics with those of the recording. But the recording cannot do the impulse response of whatever speakers you're listening to any justice. How much is the acoustics of the room coloring the sound? Below 200Hz notwithstanding, does the recorder's uncalibrated mic bring the treble forward?

"Microphones are Stupid"... The microphone on the other hand will just sum the direct and reflected sounds together ...This is fine...I'm ok with a quick demo and Understand this is happening in the demo. There are recording techniques that can alleviate some of this, but it takes multiple mic setups, DSP processing and knowledge of how to use. Most YouTubers are simply NOT going to do that. We certainly aren't.

I'm not looking for perfection from a youtube video. I'm looking at the general performance of different types of speakers (Electrostatic, ceramics drivers, paper drivers, AMT tweeters, etc.. I only really pay attention to individuals who do a good job of recording.

The sort of subtlety you're hoping to discern can't be achieved by listening to a recording of a recording. You said so yourself with your photocopy illustration earlier. There's too much loss of detail. And again, how can you hear whether the mic is combining direct radiation with early reflections to color the sound? These room interactions might not occur in your own house. Or there might be different interactions not heard by the videographer.

"YouTube Compression"...Garbage in garbage out...I use Netflix streaming service and I get spectacular audio from netflix shows...Netflix uses compression also but if your equipment can process the audio back out it should sound fine. Given that the audio sounds fairly good on youtube I'm wondering if this statement was made years ago.

I will concede this point. I'm not one to drink the 24-bit, 192kHz Kool-Aid either. I believe 16-bit, 44kHz, 224kbps MP3s are indistinguishable from lossless, and can only very rarely tell the difference between lossless and 192kbps. And since YouTube uses AAC, which offers better quality audio compared to the same bitrate MP3, YouTube's compression will have a negligible effect.

Most of our listening demos consist of high resolution audio recordings such as DVD-A, SACD, or FLAC 192kHz/24bit. What the hell does this mean? Most people cannot hear anything substantial past 16 bit cd quality...whether your listening to high res audio or cd quality you should be able to determine if the speakers are operating properly. The crossovers are done correctly and the speakers are not overly bright....

Maybe this was done years ago and audioholics needs an update....

I'll add a few more to the list. Is the crossover point too low for accurate sound stage? Too high to mask the breakup modes of the mid driver? Do the speakers have a wide enough listening window to accommodate your intended use, or is there a single sweet spot that will leave others in the room hearing acceptable but uninspiring sound? Will the off axis response color early reflections differently in the videographer's room than it would in yours? These are questions a YouTube video cannot ever answer.