Which brand makes the best quality loudspeakers?

[Cos]

This is a discussion from 2011, did you reset the numbers or something?

 

[gene]

This is a discussion from 2011, did you reset the numbers or something?

Unfortunately this was setup as an open poll for guests to vote. Xenforo doesn't count guest voted so they were purged.

 

[utubecomment21]

I would really like to audition the PMC subwoofers

By the way, what is it that PMC labels as ATL (Advanced Transmission Line), to me they just look like regular transmission lines, some are more folded than others, but in general just different permutations of a TL, in the fact-8 it's stated there is a resonant chamber at the end of the TL that helps to dampen some higher order resonances, never heard of anything like this before, does this work or is it a marketing gimmick....

My issue with PMC is as with many so called high-end brands.

1) A lot of high-end brands use really cheap drivers form companies as Vifa, Perrles, Scanspeak etc to name a few. I would hasten to add that Vifa, Peerless and Scanspeak per se are not bad brands, but the truth remains that in the case of Wilson Audio, PMC, ATC to name a few, you're paying 1,000's if not 10,000's for speakers that use £20 drivers in them.

2) Active Transmission Line: In the above photo, i have seen a modeled such exotic Transmission line enclosures, including Daline T-lines, and Jensen transflex enclosures and their variants. I see nothing special about PMC, couple with the fact that they use cheapish drivers, I've never been impressed by PMC at all sorry Peter. Active Transmission Line is marketing talk, and it mean ... nothing in reality.



For me there's a difference between good speakers and memorable experiences I've had. As many would have, I have listened to lots of audio gear from PA, home audio, personal audio and car audio. In terms of speakers, I have been into self-building for many decades, and find the mass of commercial brand, Monitor Audio, B&W, Naim, Missioin, Whafdale, McIntosh, KEF, Wilson Audio etc, etc, too be laughably at best. I understand the commercial reasons for charging the prices they do, but it would take a lot for me to buy commercial speakers, when i know i can go to parts express, or madisound, pick up the same drivers, the same crossover components, chop some would in my workshop and come up with the same thing or better for next to nothing.

The only 'Memorable' experience I had with commercial speakers where a set of Dynaudio floor standing speakers (forgot the model) However I built a pair of transmission line speaker for my friend, for near an 8th of the price and he got rid of the Dyn's.

 

[GranteedEV]

...KEF, ATC, and B&W don't use off-the shelf drivers, though.

 

[utubecomment21]

Didn't say anything about KEF and B&W, personally I wouldn't give either a second look, however ATC have used Vifa and Seas drivers;

Google:

"ATC models are using very inexpensive Vifa tweeters (Vifa D26NC5)"
"I guess it matches well with the cheap ATC mid and woofers"
"VIFA D27TG45-06"
"SEAS EXCEL T25CF001"
"ATC seems to have recognized the weakness of the original Vifa
ATC has replaced the VIFA tweeter with a SEAS t25 001 tweeter2
http://www.proaudio.sm/atc-vifa-tweeter-d26nc-55-06
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://i.imgur.com/3Z0ybg8.jpg&imgrefurl=http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?238269-Blind-testing-between-audio-system-and-audio-system&h=600&w=800&tbnid=dAC03lDG6Ll5oM:&zoom=1&docid=Jtaz64UkpQ-0FM&ei=dGWsVNmDNsr_Uu_VgOAF&tbm=isch&ved=0CBcQMygPMA84ZA&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=880&page=6&start=114&ndsp=22

Replacement ATC tweeters for £35 - http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDIzWDgwMA%3D%3D/z/zC8AAMXQlUNRRe-K/%24T2eC16dHJHIE9nysfB4(BRRe-J5dZw~~60_35.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.ebay.pl/itm/BRAND-NEW-ATC-SCM12-SCM16-SCM35-REPLACEMENT-TWEETER-DRIVERS-PAIR-/231033684298&h=158&w=300&tbnid=35tzBIsdnXa79M:&zoom=1&docid=b4TqxfY2uRLLZM&itg=1&ei=ImasVJTrNIP8UMTlgbgO&tbm=isch&ved=0CCEQMygCMAI&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=581&page=1&start=0&ndsp=17

The tweeters are supplied by Vifa, and use a conventional 1 inch soft-dome. - http://www.markhennessy.co.uk/atc/

I could go on!


The worst offender IMO is still Wilson Audio, which for anyone with a discerning eye use Tymphany drivers (Scan's Peerless). Dave Wilson's daughter Debbie tried to explain the use of Scan and Peerless driver telling me that the drivers are modified.

AD Designs tried that with a set of build house speakers, and offered a pair of speakers that you and I can buy from various Chinese warehouse sites, and put a huge mark up in the $100's mark ... for what, for a swapped out 15 cent capacitor ... me thinks not!
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ad designs diymobileaudio&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=5WysVLj7MZHaaNjVgsgM - click on the first/main diymobileaudio link


As for ATC midbass, midrange, subwoofer drivers, some seem so feel the weight is a gauge for quality and/or performance. didn't know drivers performed by such parameters as weight! I guess its interesting to know how certain people gauge performance .. by looks and how impressive it looks on the kitchen scales. Personally I like to measure a speaker. some of the best performing speakers i've tested are those that look the least impressive!

I understand how commercially one can't build a pair of speakers which uses such cheap drivers and sell it cheaply. There has to be a mark up. However please don't ask me to view such commercially expensive speakers other than what they are, cheap speakers with drivers costing $10's. Sonus Faber is the only one shelling out suing the flex and c units from audiotechology.

Its amusing to see people talking about Bose using cheap components. Personally I don't see Bose charging $10,000 or even $100,000 for their home audio speakers.

 

[utubecomment21]

And as for High-end brands getting into car audio, lets see what Gary Summers has to say about them:

Gary, Sound engineer for low budget & unmemorable films such as: Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back & Return of the Jedi, Lord Of The Rings, LOTR Two Towers, LOFR Return Of The King, Terminator 2 and 4 time Oscar winner!!!

 

[gene]

And as for High-end brands getting into car audio, lets see what Gary Summers has to say about them:

Gary, Sound engineer for low budget & unmemorable films such as: Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back & Return of the Jedi, Lord Of The Rings, LOTR Two Towers, LOFR Return Of The King, Terminator 2 and 4 time Oscar winner!!!

Great stuff he is saying. Bravo!

 

[utubecomment21]

...KEF, ATC, and B&W don't use off-the shelf drivers, though.

The thing is with the likes of these manufacturers is that for the most part, they use the low end series of drviers. If Wilson or ATC or PMC and the like used the high-end Scanspeak Illumiator or Revelator tweeters/drivers, and charged us $1,000's to 10,000's then fair enough but they don't! They use the most basic low-end scale of drivers .... Vifa/Scan/Peerless Seas drviers costing $25 instead of Scan tweets costing $225 ... and that $25 retail to us via sites like parts-express.com and madisound.com or wilmslow-audio (UK), and such sites are making a mark up. So what price do you think Wilson, ATC, PMC are getting these drivers, $5-10 maybe?

Subwoofers, you can by a driver, plate amp, and get a professional cabinet maker to build you and enclosure if you don't feel confident, and you'd still save huge amounts of cash.

As for PMC's active transmission line, again, lol

 

[Pavit]

I would also have liked to see Focal in this list!

 

[Josuah]

Of the brands listed, I'd pick B&W.

But obviously I've picked Acoustic Zen speakers instead. Excellent measurements in frequency response and phase, low distortion, and very neutral and natural sounding. They're pretty easy to drive, with their phase response, and can play at reference volumes relatively cleanly. The entire line is matched so as surround sound + movies goes from one speaker to another the sound character does not change. The other speakers I've heard have not been as good, to my ears.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And as for High-end brands getting into car audio, lets see what Gary Summers has to say about them:

Gary, Sound engineer for low budget & unmemorable films such as: Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back & Return of the Jedi, Lord Of The Rings, LOTR Two Towers, LOFR Return Of The King, Terminator 2 and 4 time Oscar winner!!!

How can car audio be as good as the best home audio?

In a home system, you can have a dead silent environment and no GLASS WINDOWS all around you. Try putting huge mirrors all around the room and see how that sounds (even with acoustic panels).

In a car, you have GLASS windows all around you, road noise, engine noise, other car noise, wind noise all around you to some extent.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So what price do you think Wilson, ATC, PMC are getting these drivers, $5-10 maybe?

That's why Wilson, ATC, and PMC aren't on the list.

 

[gene]

How can car audio be as good as the best home audio?

In a home system, you can have a dead silent environment and no GLASS WINDOWS all around you. Try putting huge mirrors all around the room and see how that sounds (even with acoustic panels).

In a car, you have GLASS windows all around you, road noise, engine noise, other car noise, wind noise all around you to some extent.

While I like much of what he was saying, I agree Car Audio can NEVER be as good as the best home audio for the very reasons you are saying. You can't get the noise floor low enough, nor can you get as good positioning and separation of the speakers. Still, I have heard car systems rival most people's home theater systems but that says a lot about the poor setup of the latter.

 

[Irvrobinson]

While I like much of what he was saying, I agree Car Audio can NEVER be as good as the best home audio for the very reasons you are saying. You can't get the noise floor low enough, nor can you get as good positioning and separation of the speakers. Still, I have heard car systems rival most people's home theater systems but that says a lot about the poor setup of the latter.

Some of us were discussing the vehicle versus home system topic in another thread, and while many car systems are pretty good these days, I still never listen to music in a car. Especially sports cars. On the other hand, when the engine is turned off it does amaze me how good some car audio systems sound considering the challenges. Tuning a system for a particular venue, even the interior of a car, can have remarkable results.

I think it is also worth mentioning that most home systems I get a chance to listen to sound absolutely horrible. This is true even when some pretty good speakers are deployed. Most often the main speakers are towers placed right up against a large video monitor, sometimes with one speaker very near a side wall while the other isn't, the mains are usually too close to the back wall or even recessed into a small space, and the sub(s) are run way too hot, mostly for movie effects. Male voices usually sound chesty and cymbals sound hashy. It is common to hear a suck-out right in the 150Hz range that's easily revealed by piano recordings. While movies are usually tolerable, because natural sound and movies are orthogonal anyway, music almost always sounds unnatural, with no stereo imaging beyond some left-right information. For people with systems like this I do think many stock car audio systems are the best music systems they own.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think it's only fair to compare the best car audio vs. the best home audio.

"Most" home audio and car audio systems are just bad.

For example, as bad as Bose is, it is also possible for the "best" Bose home setup to sound a lot better than "most" car audio.

The "best" Bose car audio may also sound better than most people's home audio.

So we have to compare the "best" vs the "best", not the "best" vs. "most".

And when we say "most", I assume we are referring to systems belonging to "most people we know"?

 

[Irvrobinson]

"Most" ... car audio systems are just bad.

It's just on this point that we don't agree. I think most late model car audio systems are actually pretty good. I (unfortunately) have driven more than my share of rental cars, so its not like I'm forming an opinion based on high-end luxury cars either. No, I don't think any car system compares with a well-setup home audio system, it's just that my point is that most home audio systems are set up so poorly set up that stock car audio is often better for music.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It's just on this point that we don't agree. I think most late model car audio systems are actually pretty good. I (unfortunately) have driven more than my share of rental cars, so its not like I'm forming an opinion based on high-end luxury cars either. No, I don't think any car system compares with a well-setup home audio system, it's just that my point is that most home audio systems are set up so poorly set up that stock car audio is often better for music.

Yeah I disagree because most home audio systems of people I know sound a lot better than the audio systems in their cars.

 

[lsiberian]

The thing is with the likes of these manufacturers is that for the most part, they use the low end series of drviers. If Wilson or ATC or PMC and the like used the high-end Scanspeak Illumiator or Revelator tweeters/drivers, and charged us $1,000's to 10,000's then fair enough but they don't! They use the most basic low-end scale of drivers .... Vifa/Scan/Peerless Seas drviers costing $25 instead of Scan tweets costing $225 ... and that $25 retail to us via sites like parts-express.com and madisound.com or wilmslow-audio (UK), and such sites are making a mark up. So what price do you think Wilson, ATC, PMC are getting these drivers, $5-10 maybe?

Subwoofers, you can by a driver, plate amp, and get a professional cabinet maker to build you and enclosure if you don't feel confident, and you'd still save huge amounts of cash.

As for PMC's active transmission line, again, lol

Price and driver quality don't exactly correlate in my experience. I use 10 dollar Vifa woofers for my my bottoms, 40 dollar Dayton Dome Midranges and 20 dollar ribbon tweeters in my own custom build. Not sure why you are going off about them.

 

[KEW]

my point is that most home audio systems are set up so poorly set up that stock car audio is often better for music.

This is the one huge advantage car audio has. Theoretically, the "room" is integrated as part of the system.

I am not suggesting this means best car beats best home, I am just saying that set up should not be (and generally isn't) required in a car, thus eliminating a process that so many people drop the ball on.

Lucas should come up with three THX certified audio/HT rooms (different sizes/budgets). The dimensions and surface materials and window (or mirror placement) are prescribed. People custom building their homes could have a room built; but ideally, one could be designed to use the common bonus room space above a 2-car garage. I wouldn't expect it to cost much more than a standard room.

Of course Lucas can't make money on rooms, it would be too easy for a builder to replicate the room without paying any fee. However, Lucas could get paid liscensing HTX systems where the HTX approved system is used in the correct HTX room with speakers, listening positions, and TV located as prescribed.

Of course it doesn't have to be Lucas, but someone with the money and name recognition to get it started. I'm not sure it would catch on before frustrating investors if a new company tried it. Steve Jobs would have been an ideal fit with tons of Apple loyal customers to buy in as soon as he said it was ready!

 

[lsiberian]

I will say JBL and Infinity make very good car speakers. I love them and am tempted to have them installed in mine. We put them in my brother's car over Christmas break.