Which amp?

[cfrizz]

Hi Chopin Guy! Outlaw is a fine company that also makes outstanding gear for an affordable price. I used a monoblock of theirs to power my center speaker for a bit. built like a tank and weighed in at 20lbs!

I doubt you would be disappointed with one of their products.

They don't talk alot about other companies around here cause they are a bunch of Emotiva fanboys!

Adam....thank you for the PM....I appreciate your insight. And I mean not to highjack the thread but I have been reading through a lot of threads regarding separate amplifiers and was wondering why I haven't seen a lot of talk or referrals to Outlaw amplifiers. I was just wondering about their quality and sound??? Anyone have any experience with their products???

 

[cfrizz]

From looking at the specs and some reviews I would say you have 4ohm speakers.

A lot of reviews said they required a lot of power.

My Canton floorstanders (as well as the center channel) list the nominal impedance just like this 4...8ohms are my speakers 4 ohms or 8 ohms?

 

[zumbo]

From looking at the specs and some reviews I would say you have 4ohm speakers.

A lot of reviews said they required a lot of power.

I didn't know for sure, so I didn't answer. When I see a speaker specked that way, I feel as though it is 4ohm, and the manufacturer is stating it is 8ohm compatible. I would treat it as a 4ohm speaker, and amplify accordingly.

 

[wire]

I'll be the first person to tell you that sending 30 watts to speakers from a 250 wpc amplifier is no different than sending 30 watts from a 75 wpc amplifier. But understand that the speaker power specifications are determined by operating a speaker to the point of destruction. If you actually deliver more than the rated power over a period of time to the speakers, the voice coils will overheat and fuse. While short bursts of high power don't give the speakers time to overheat, apply it long enough and it will overheat.

The more important point is that, in a typical home theater with a powered sub, no speaker is going to get 250 watts of power ever, let along 75 watts or perhaps even 30 watts. So the rating of the amplifier isn't really the issue. It is the rating of the speaker. If professional reviewers believe that unused power has some effect on sonics, they are just mistaken.

Again depending on the amp .
I hooked up a pair of 6 ohm 100 watt speakers to my Bryston for many years ( while my 2b's where in storage ) . I ran much more than 100 watts though them for many years ( even sometimes made the Bryston lights turn from green to red on short spurts ) , without any type of damage . Now i use them on a Tube amp and sound terriffic .
I was running alot of clean power though them and they love the Bryston power , I guess the woofer driver stood up pretty well . PS i would not advise trying this with a midrange reciever , you willbe replacing your tweets , very quickly .

 

[fmw]

I ran much more than 100 watts though them for many years

How do you know that?

 

[3db]

I was looking to get a Emotiva amp.I'm running an H/K avr 630 with psb 6t,9c,and 2b as rear surrounds.Which one of their amps should I get to power all speakers without over powering them.6t's are 150rms/300 max@6 ohms,9c is 175 max@8 ohms and 2bs are 100watts max@6 ohms.Was looking to get their pre/pro later when it comes out.

Deezer, if I remember correctly, the 6T are very efficient speakers in or above 92db sensitivity despite being 6ohms. I would think that your H/K can already drive them to ear bleeding levels and still sound very much in control.

Why are you looking for a new amp?

 

[wire]

How do you know that?

Well
If you know anything about a Bryston 4B , when the 2 green lights blink to red , well its pushing much more than 100 watts ( According to last time my bryston was checked , its more close to 265 watts per ).

 

[PENG]

Well
If you know anything about a Bryston 4B , when the 2 green lights blink to red , well its pushing much more than 100 watts ( According to last time my bryston was checked , its more close to 265 watts per ).

Hello wire, I am not trying to contradict anything you said but the blinking lights could be indicating very short burst due to clipping. It does not mean the speakers are getting 265 watts for any length of time other than may be a couple of milliseconds.

My speakers are 4 ohms minimum, 8 ohms nominal but I have never seen either of my two amps clipping indicators blink, not even once. Not even when I pushed the speakers hard with high end classical music CDs/SACDs that are heavy on bass drums, canons, and timpani stuff. You probably have a much larger room than mine and listen at higher SPL than I as well. Anyway, that's why they say the more power the better whether you need it or not. Of course that's only true in the case of "money no object".

 

[Deezer]

3db...I'm not trying to go with the bigger is better theory,but I just think my speakers could do better with more wattage.I'm hoping to gain a some lower volume "punch".Maybe it's just me but I don't feel like I'm giving my speakers enough juice to play at their full potienial.These speakers might be older but they're new to me and just replacing my sony sat. with these is a huge differance.

 

[wire]

Hello wire, I am not trying to contradict anything you said but the blinking lights could be indicating very short burst due to clipping. It does not mean the speakers are getting 265 watts for any length of time other than may be a couple of milliseconds.

My speakers are 4 ohms minimum, 8 ohms nominal but I have never seen either of my two amps clipping indicators blink, not even once. Not even when I pushed the speakers hard with high end classical music CDs/SACDs that are heavy on bass drums, canons, and timpani stuff. You probably have a much larger room than mine and listen at higher SPL than I as well. Anyway, that's why they say the more power the better whether you need it or not. Of course that's only true in the case of "money no object".

Yeh Peng
Thats what i mean , The 2 front lights on a Bryston , they are green that will blink to red when pushed . Oh yeh , they are getting the power , when it peaks and yes i had a large room with a cement floor @ the time . I can tell you an amp makes a difference .
Now i have it set up in smaller room ( but still a large room ) with my 2b's ( the 2b's r power hungery speaks ) , rarley crank it up anymore .
Off topic , but look @ these , who needs 5.1 and big amps if you could have a pair these
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1227580611&/Altec-Lansing-BIAS--550-the-ra
http://www.thevintageknob.org/AJW/BIAS550/BIAS550.html
http://www.thevintageknob.org/AJW/BIAS550/BIAS550-specs.html

 

[3db]

3db...I'm not trying to go with the bigger is better theory,but I just think my speakers could do better with more wattage.I'm hoping to gain a some lower volume "punch".Maybe it's just me but I don't feel like I'm giving my speakers enough juice to play at their full potienial.These speakers might be older but they're new to me and just replacing my sony sat. with these is a huge differance.

I seriously doubt that a new more powerful amp will give you better lower volme punch. At a given lower volume setting, the amp will give the current that the speaker demands. Its at the higher volumes when the amp trries to maintain the voltage but can't because it can't supply teh current needed that you would hear this.

Perhaps the 6Ts may not be the speaker for you (hard thing to say from a PSB die hard liek myself ) . I would experiment with placement first and foremost if you have that flexability in your room.

 

[MidnightSensi]

The "loud" function, or equivalent, on a lot of processors just boosts the bass and treble to give you a perception of lower volume dynamics. Really the only way to increase your dynamics is to turn up the volume.

 

[fmw]

3db...I'm not trying to go with the bigger is better theory,but I just think my speakers could do better with more wattage.I'm hoping to gain a some lower volume "punch".Maybe it's just me but I don't feel like I'm giving my speakers enough juice to play at their full potienial.These speakers might be older but they're new to me and just replacing my sony sat. with these is a huge differance.

Yes there can be some remarkable differences in the sonics of speaker systems. However, your belief about the amplifier is mistaken. 1 watt from a 15 watt amplifier and 1 watt from a 250 watt amplifier are the same thing. There isn't any difference in "punch" or anything else. Most speakers will play at normal average volume levels with 1 watt of input power. They need "juice" to play at high volume levels, not low volume levels. There is a common misconception that unused power has some effect on sonics. It doesn't. Unused power is simply unused. I can't remember where this sentiment started but it should go away in this modern day and age.

 

[Deezer]

I understand the 1 watt thing your saying but wouldn't it sound differant with 200watts from amp at any volume than 75 watts at any volume?Or maybe I have this whole speaker/amp watt thing wrong when it comes to powering my system.Since I need/want a new reciever(new codec,audio formats,Hdmi,upscaling,etc.)should I just get a new avr with more power than a bigger amp?Lets say an Onkyo 875/876-905/906?Or maybe the Denon 3808?

 

[3db]

I understand the 1 watt thing your saying but wouldn't it sound differant with 200watts from amp at any volume than 75 watts at any volume?Or maybe I have this whole speaker/amp watt thing wrong when it comes to powering my system.Since I need/want a new reciever(new codec,audio formats,Hdmi,upscaling,etc.)should I just get a new avr with more power than a bigger amp?Lets say an Onkyo 875/876-905/906?Or maybe the Denon 3808?

Now your making sense I can understand upgrading for new codecs/features and I'm in that boat myself.

To answer your 75watts, 200 watts question? No. It won't make a difference.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

There was a demo at last years RMAF where they had some piece of gear setup to measure actual wattage draw while music was playing. They used a few different amps, tube and solid state ranging from like 20 watts to 250 watts. Then each was set with the same tone to a steady 1 watt draw, and then music was played. This was all done to see just how much importance dynamic headroom is.

The 250 watt amp would routinely draw 80 watts or more, and in musical passages that didn't really sound dynamic. It even clipped a few times on some tracks. The tube amps clipped often, and was audible many times when they did.

It was somewhat eye-opening to all in attendance just how important headroom is. There was clearly a correlation with all amps between harsh sound and huge dynamic draws. Personally, I don't think you can have too much power.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

All I know is that I blew 3 woofers before my amp and none since then.

 

[fmw]

I understand the 1 watt thing your saying but wouldn't it sound differant with 200watts from amp at any volume than 75 watts at any volume

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. A 200 watt per channel amplifier has about 4 db of headroom over a 75 watt per channel amplifier. That means it would start clipping at a volume level about 4 db higher than the smaller amp.

Clipping means the amplifier's ability to amplify the signal properly has been exceeded and it only transmits part of the signal and that results in distortion of the signal. Where does that point occur? Depends on the size of the listening room, the efficiency of the speakers and room acoustics, the composition of the speaker systems, the dynamic range of music and, of course, the amplifier power. It's pretty complicated.

I'll give you a real case, my own. My home theater is in a room that is about 20' by 24'. My main speakers are of average efficiency and they are supported by a powered subwoofer. I sit about 12 feet from my main speakers. I set my listening level so that I hear movie dialogue at about the same volume I would hear it if the actors were in the room with me. I have a recording wattmeter connected to my right front speaker. The average power input to that speaker is about 3/4 of one watt over the course of a movie. On loud peaks such as explosions in movie soundtracks, the watt meter will hit as high as 20 watts. What this means is that, in my situation, anything over 20 watts per channel is enough to drive my front speakers without distortion. No doubt the subwoofer needs a lot more but it has plenty of power by itself. We're talking about front main speakers.

My receiver has an output of 150 watts per channel. I chose it not because of the power output but rather because it did a good job of scaling SD programming. I don't use very much of the power since the powered subwoofer carries the heavy load.

The image below shows an amplifier I use to drive a public address system for live musical performances. It is rated at around 350 watts per channel into 8 ohms. I can fill an auditorium with sound from this amp driving two speakers. I could parallel two more speakers and produce even more volume since the amp is stable at low impedances. In my home listening room this amp would use more electrical power to heat its power supply transformer than to drive speakers. It would be a complete waste. Different situation, different application, different requirements.

 

[Deezer]

Ok I got it.I must have been one of those people that believed the speaker spec hype on amp requirements.So with that being said I would only need a bigger amp IF I was trying to drive a 4ohm load speaker with a low sensetivity rating.

 

[fmw]

No, the ability to drive low impedance loads is a matter of the power supply's ability to deliver current. Amplifiers that have this kind of high current capacity normally have higher power ratings for lower impedances. The lower the impedance, the more the current drain at a given volume level. That's a different issue from delivering volume. Volume, as I mentioned above depends on a lot factors.

Let me put it this way. The very great majority of typical home theaters, including mine, don't need outboard amplifiers. A few do but, to be honest, it is only a very few. The trick to home theater is to employ a powered subwoofer. That relieves the speakers and the amplfiers of most of the work, allowing them to coast along comfortably with a light load. If you don't employ a powered subwoofer then the requirements for power can be significantly higher than they are for me. So do yourself a favor and be sure to include a powered sub in your system. Powered subs are a godsend.