Which amp?

[Chopin_Guy]

Adam??? Did you have trouble with an Emotiva amp...???

 

[Adam]

Adam??? Did you have trouble with an Emotiva amp...???

Yes. I've discussed it a bit before, so to spare the rest of the crew, I'll send you a PM in about two minutes.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Tell him about my EMO issues while you are at it.

Yes. I've discussed it a bit before, so to spare the rest of the crew, I'll send you a PM in about two minutes.

 

[Adam]

Tell him about my EMO issues while you are at it.

I would, but you tell it so much better. The way that you verbally paint a mental landscape is truly captivating. Besides, I already sent him the PM.

 

[cfrizz]

Says the man with a Mcintosh 225wpc 2 channel amp!

It constantly amazes me how people will constantly try to talk a newbie out of an amplifier or into a less powerful amplifier, yet own a megawatt one themselves!

Let's try being consistant here folks. If it's because HT amplification (not pro amps) costs quite a bit of money just be honest & say so. We all want to save a buck when we can.

Amplification does make a difference, even most professional reviewers suggest the same, so this constant naysaying on this board always confounds me.

No its not and remember 20 Watts is very loud x 5.

 

[Adam]

Hey, Cathy. Just wanted to say that it's good to see you back on the forum. It's been a little while!

 

[PENG]

Amplification does make a difference, even most professional reviewers suggest the same, so this constant naysaying on this board always confounds me.

I don't think there are too many naysaying on this board regarding amplification making a difference. Some of us are simply saying that it is better to focus on the front channels because the rear channels do not need as much power. This fact is easily verifiable by listening, and can be measured easily as well.

In this specific case, Deezer is using the PSB 2B for his rear surrounds. The 2B has a sensitivity of 89 dB/1W/m (anechoic), 6 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum, and PSB recommends the use of amplifiers rated from 10W to 100WPC. That's if the speakers are used as the main speakers. For rear surround duty, I am sure his 40+ lbs HK AVR630 can easily drive those surround speakers to well above the -10 volume level that he said he listened to, especially when he most likely would crossover them at 60 to 80 Hz so the sub would take care of the high current demands.

Again, I agree there is nothing wrong with having more power even for the surrounds. but if it is my money I would rather spend it all on my front 3 channels and let the receiver take care of the surrounds. Now, if Deezer wish to follow your advice and go for all 5 channels, I would still suggest that he considers two separate amps, that is one each of 2 and 3 channel amps, for added flexibility.

 

[cfrizz]

Thank you Adam! Yeah my life was in an uproar for a while what with buying a condo, & packing & moving, & unpacking & training on a new job & vacation that I desparately needed to recover from all of that, left me with very little free time. So I had to let some of the boards I visit go by the wayside till I had more time.

Nice of you to notice I was gone, much appreciated!

Hey, Cathy. Just wanted to say that it's good to see you back on the forum. It's been a little while!

 

[cfrizz]

Well Peng I followed that advice & focused all the power on my 3 front channels as well. Then figured that if it made such a big difference in the 3 in front, than it should also have an impact on the back speakers. So I finally got a 5 channel, AND IT DID!

Do they have limited use in movies & 2 channel music? Yes, But then I always listen to my music utilizing all the speakers including my 2 channel stuff. And they certainly have an impact with multichannel dvd's & SACD's.

The truth is you and other people have CHOSEN to say that the back channels don't need as much power, but that flies in the face of reality of if the fronts will accept 100wpc & the backs will accept 100wpc then why would you deliberately decide that they only need 50wpc and present it as fact?

And I couldn't care less about turning music into a science project just to try and prove it to someone else by spouting a bunch of numbers & measurements at them.

Basically what speaker companies put on as max wpc usage is a useless number. The speakers will accept whatever wattage that you choose to give them. It is only limited by peoples preconceived notions & their wallets! There are no hard and set in stone rules with audio. It is whatever each person decides they want to do. Utilizing common sense of course.

I don't think there are too many naysaying on this board regarding amplification making a difference. Some of us are simply saying that it is better to focus on the front channels because the rear channels do not need as much power. This fact is easily verifiable by listening, and can be measured easily as well.

In this specific case, Deezer is using the PSB 2B for his rear surrounds. The 2B has a sensitivity of 89 dB/1W/m (anechoic), 6 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum, and PSB recommends the use of amplifiers rated from 10W to 100WPC. That's if the speakers are used as the main speakers. For rear surround duty, I am sure his 40+ lbs HK AVR630 can easily drive those surround speakers to well above the -10 volume level that he said he listened to, especially when he most likely would crossover them at 60 to 80 Hz so the sub would take care of the high current demands.

Again, I agree there is nothing wrong with having more power even for the surrounds. but if it is my money I would rather spend it all on my front 3 channels and let the receiver take care of the surrounds. Now, if Deezer wish to follow your advice and go for all 5 channels, I would still suggest that he considers two separate amps, that is one each of 2 and 3 channel amps, for added flexibility.

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Adam....thank you for the PM....I appreciate your insight. And I mean not to highjack the thread but I have been reading through a lot of threads regarding separate amplifiers and was wondering why I haven't seen a lot of talk or referrals to Outlaw amplifiers. I was just wondering about their quality and sound??? Anyone have any experience with their products???

 

[bandphan]

Says the man with a Mcintosh 225wpc 2 channel amp!

It constantly amazes me how people will constantly try to talk a newbie out of an amplifier or into a less powerful amplifier, yet own a megawatt one themselves!

its 250 into at 8ohm speced in adv, measured 290 into 8 by the lab I have nothing against power and am not trying to talk anyone out anything. when my additon gets built ill add even more, but with purpose and need. The op can get what ever he perfers, i was just being honest with numbers

 

[Deezer]

Yes I wasn't trying to play louder,I wanted more dynamic and clean sound.I'm new to home theater audio,but dabbled abit in car adio and was told a good rule of thumb was to match you amp to your speakers rms rating.I knew under powering a speaker could damage it/blow it,but I also thought to much power would cuase the speaker to blow.And yes I will wait till they have a sell.

 

[fmw]

Basically what speaker companies put on as max wpc usage is a useless number. The speakers will accept whatever wattage that you choose to give them. It is only limited by peoples preconceived notions & their wallets! There are no hard and set in stone rules with audio.

I'll be the first person to tell you that sending 30 watts to speakers from a 250 wpc amplifier is no different than sending 30 watts from a 75 wpc amplifier. But understand that the speaker power specifications are determined by operating a speaker to the point of destruction. If you actually deliver more than the rated power over a period of time to the speakers, the voice coils will overheat and fuse. While short bursts of high power don't give the speakers time to overheat, apply it long enough and it will overheat.

The more important point is that, in a typical home theater with a powered sub, no speaker is going to get 250 watts of power ever, let along 75 watts or perhaps even 30 watts. So the rating of the amplifier isn't really the issue. It is the rating of the speaker. If professional reviewers believe that unused power has some effect on sonics, they are just mistaken.

 

[zumbo]

The more important point is that, in a typical home theater with a powered sub, no speaker is going to get 250 watts of power ever, let along 75 watts or perhaps even 30 watts. So the rating of the amplifier isn't really the issue. It is the rating of the speaker. If professional reviewers believe that unused power has some effect on sonics, they are just mistaken.

I have seen people state such, but I have to disagree. I have a separate amp rated 175 x 5 @4ohm. It is driving five 4ohm speakers. It has peak(clipping) indicators. I constantly light-up the fl and fr when watching a concert dvd, which is what I mostly use my set-up for. And, on occasion, I will also light-up the center channel.

 

[zumbo]

Yes I wasn't trying to play louder,I wanted more dynamic and clean sound.I'm new to home theater audio,but dabbled abit in car adio and was told a good rule of thumb was to match you amp to your speakers rms rating.I knew under powering a speaker could damage it/blow it,but I also thought to much power would cuase the speaker to blow.And yes I will wait till they have a sell.

The more quality power you have, the clener the sound at higher levels. There is a point at which you can tell the speaker is at it's peak. The object is not to go past that peak. One can crank-up a 30WPC receiver too far and toast the speakers. One can crank-up a 300WPC amp and do some serious damage.

I did follow the rule of thumb with my system. My speakers clearly recommend power from 110-180. They are 4ohm. I am using an amp rated 175 @4ohm. When my peak(clipping) indicator lights come on, I can also tell the speakers are getting all they can stand. However, if the amp had more power, the sound would be cleaner at that point. And, the amp would not be to the point of clipping, which would probably make most people(myself included) push it a little more.

If somone is certain they have the ability not to push a speaker too far, then the more power the better.

 

[davidtwotrees]

My Canton floorstanders (as well as the center channel) list the nominal impedance just like this 4...8ohms are my speakers 4 ohms or 8 ohms?

 

[PENG]

My Canton floorstanders (as well as the center channel) list the nominal impedance just like this 4...8ohms are my speakers 4 ohms or 8 ohms?

I am only guessing, but may be they mean 4 ohms minimum and 8 ohms nominal. If they do mean that, then the minimum value is cut and dry but the nominal value is not as we all know the impedance of a loudspeaker varies with frequency. Manufacturers may have different ways to derive the nominal value from the impedance vs frequency plot.

I read something about a standard has been developed for the definition for nominal impedance but I have no idea if anyone has actually adopted the standard. I suppose you can request a copy of the impedance curve from Canton.

 

[PENG]

Well Peng I followed that advice & focused all the power on my 3 front channels as well. Then figured that if it made such a big difference in the 3 in front, than it should also have an impact on the back speakers. So I finally got a 5 channel, AND IT DID!

There is no disagreement here. There should be impact, how much impact would depend on the individual case (room size, acoustics, types of speakers etc., applications etc.). In the case of money being no object, the anwer is obvious and no further discussion is necessary.

Do they have limited use in movies & 2 channel music? Yes, But then I always listen to my music utilizing all the speakers including my 2 channel stuff. And they certainly have an impact with multichannel dvd's & SACD's.

So we are in agreement again? I did mention 5,7 ch modes as exceptions, although I did say I personally only use 5,7 ch modes for back ground music, but that's just me.

The truth is you and other people have CHOSEN to say that the back channels don't need as much power, but that flies in the face of reality of if the fronts will accept 100wpc & the backs will accept 100wpc then why would you deliberately decide that they only need 50wpc and present it as fact?

Now this is not so accuate. I said the rear surrounds would not need as much power as the front (i.e. L/R/C) channels but I did not say they only need 50wpc. Where did you get that from? I also said his HKAVR630 should be able to output at least 120 WPC or much higher peaks when it only has to power those 2 speakers.

And I couldn't care less about turning music into a science project just to try and prove it to someone else by spouting a bunch of numbers & measurements at them.

I respect that, people care for different things for different reasons. I guess those folks at Sunfire probably had to do a lot of tests and measurements as well as data analysis before launching that sweet and powerful amp that you obviously are happy with. I don't think they could do their R&D by listening tests only.

Basically what speaker companies put on as max wpc usage is a useless number. The speakers will accept whatever wattage that you choose to give them. It is only limited by peoples preconceived notions & their wallets! There are no hard and set in stone rules with audio. It is whatever each person decides they want to do. Utilizing common sense of course.

I also think those recommended numbers are almost useless, and can be misleading. PSB recommended 10-200 W for Deezer's fronts (6T), I recommended 300W for them. PSB recommended 10-100W for his rears (2B), I said the HKAVR630 can do the job easily, the 2 channel driven ratings of the 630 according to HT Lab measurements are:

" Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 146.9 watts and 1% distortion at 170.8 watts."

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/804hk/index2.html

Sorry about "spouting numbers.....", again...

Finally, I would like to thank you for keeping "naysayers (this one in denial)" on their toes every now and then with some direct language, but please try to see that some of us are trying to be objective.

 

[cfrizz]

This is where you and I part ways FMW. I don't care if the amplifier uses 1 watt or all 405 watts. What I care about is that my speakers are getting all of the watts that they need to operate to their full potential at ALL times. For me THAT is the most important factor. And I know that is being accomplished with an amplifier that puts out 200wpc or more.

I also know that with an amp this powerful, I don't have to worry about upgrading this particular piece of gear unless it dies. I know that it will have what it takes to drive any other speakers I might purchase in the future.

I don't have to worry about clipping, going into protection, or any of the other potential problems posed by driving speakers with an underpowered receiver.

And I certainly have enough common sense to know that turning the volume up to max will damage not only the speakers but more importantly my HEARING!

I'd rather spend more money now once and do it right the first time around rather than have to worry or spend more money on a 2nd more powerful amp in the future.

The more important point is that, in a typical home theater with a powered sub, no speaker is going to get 250 watts of power ever, let along 75 watts or perhaps even 30 watts. So the rating of the amplifier isn't really the issue. It is the rating of the speaker. If professional reviewers believe that unused power has some effect on sonics, they are just mistaken.

 

[cfrizz]

My pleasure Peng! I do realize that some of you are trying to be objective, but this usually isn't an objective hobby!

Being direct and speaking in plain easy to understand english is the only way I can talk Peng! I just don't get or understand all that mumbo jumbo you tech heads spout. Either I like the sound or I don't like the sound! It's just that simple.

Finally, I would like to thank you for keeping "naysayers (this one in denial)" on their toes every now and then with some direct language, but please try to see that some of us are trying to be objective.