What's wrong with Pioneer's non-Elite line?

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C

Cygnus

Senior Audioholic
Hey all, I've been looking at upgrading my AVR, and I've been looking around at Pioneer's AVRs. I searched around on here and found a couple of people who don't like the non Elite line of their receivers. I don't have an issue with getting one of those, why should I though? What's so bad about the non-Elites? They look like they are very well built, and very feature-packed.

The ones that I've been looking at are as follows:
Elite:
SC-27
SC-35

Non-Elite:
VSX-1020-K
VSX-920-K

I currently have a Denon AVR-1706, and while I like it a lot, I feel that it is time for an upgrade, and a brand change as well.

EDIT:
I have also looked at the Denon AVR-3311CI, and am considering that as well.
 
Last edited:
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
The Pioneer AVRs are outsourced and assembled by the same factory that does the Denon AVRs...

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
sawzalot

sawzalot

Audioholic Samurai
M Code said:
The Pioneer AVRs are outsourced and assembled by the same factory that does the Denon AVRs...

Just my $0.02... ;)
Click to expand...
How do you know that , is my question also, link to source??
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Some people claim the new non-Elites are much improved. I don't know. I've owned a 912 and a 1014 and didn't care for either but of the two the 912 was better. I've moved on to Onkyo products and will never look back.
 
C

Cygnus

Senior Audioholic
I would go for Onkyo as well, but I really don't like the aesthetics.
 
I

ichigo

Full Audioholic
Small power supplies.

I have a VSX 919 rated 120Wx7.

Unfortunately peering inside I see a pair of 6,800uF capacitors and the thing weighs 19lbs.
 
M

Maestro

Enthusiast
The non Elite line have smaller caps and lighter construction. Some of the older Pio Elite receivers are built like tanks!
 
R

rfolden

Audiophyte
How about...

You audition a few of each? Keep the rest of the chain the same and see if you can hear a difference. If you can't, buy the less expensive of the choices.

Me? I still use a 1994-ish Pioneer "NON-Elite" VRX-D903s that is supposed to sound crappy and have died many moons ago according to rumor and speculation. Somehow the receiver proper must not have gotten wind of that and continues to produce "the lovely music."

Regarding "Chinese" manufactured merchandise... I have a (most definitely) manufactured in China RCA 5.1 Receiver that is rated at 100w x5 (6Ω) and has a "built-in 200w" (3Ω) sub amp. The dang thing is heavier than Hell, and I have yet to find anything that will give it a run for its money at 3x the price.

Bottom line is to actually LISTEN to the merchandise, for an extended period of time before pulling the trigger. If it sounds good to YOU, ignore all the other supposed experts and gurus. It is fine to ask for and take advice, but it is YOU that has to live with the purchase!
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
gmichael said:
Does being built in the same factory mean that they are using the same quality parts?
Click to expand...
The quality of component parts is directly related to $ cost..
The cheaper parts tend to have wider tolerances such as 20% tolerance value rather than 5%..
Also quantity buying power is a significant factor thats why the factory tries to use as many common components as possible.

Since AVRs are a mature product category and not expanding, unit pricing drives the market so all brands are constantly pressing for lower AVR FOB pricing..

IMHO...
The brands are less concerned with quality and more concerned for the lowest, possible unit pricing. Especially since technology and features continue to advance along with market pricing decreases, the AVR will be obsolete within a couple of years..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
M Code said:
The quality of component parts is directly related to $ cost..
The cheaper parts tend to have wider tolerances such as 20% tolerance value rather than 5%..
Also quantity buying power is a significant factor thats why the factory tries to use as many common components as possible.

Since AVRs are a mature product category and not expanding, unit pricing drives the market so all brands are constantly pressing for lower AVR FOB pricing..

IMHO...
The brands are less concerned with quality and more concerned for the lowest, possible unit pricing. Especially since technology and features continue to advance along with market pricing decreases, the AVR will be obsolete within a couple of years..

Just my $0.02... ;)
Click to expand...
I agree with this, but do you think that the factory is using the same parts to build the Pioneer as they are using for the Denon?
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
gmichael said:
I agree with this, but do you think that the factory is using the same parts to build the Pioneer as they are using for the Denon?
Click to expand...
Yes..
The majority of components are the same but certain chips such as the audio DSP can vary, also metal and plastic tooling are unique for each brand. Choice of which electronic components are being used depends upon the design team, but for the mentioned brands they still maintain AVR design teams in Japan they largely are doing only the more complex high end platforms. In Pioneer's case, due to their very weak financial position it is a better business decision for them to outsource the AVR design through the assembling factory..
After all it is the commodity price category and lowest cost is the driving factor...

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
M Code said:
Yes..
The majority of components are the same but certain chips such as the audio DSP can vary, also metal and plastic tooling are unique for each brand. Choice of which electronic components are being used depends upon the design team, but for the mentioned brands they still maintain AVR design teams in Japan they largely are doing only the more complex high end platforms. In Pioneer's case, due to their very weak financial position it is a better business decision for them to outsource the AVR design through the assembling factory..
After all it is the commodity price category and lowest cost is the driving factor...

Just my $0.02... ;)
Click to expand...
So you don't think companies like Pioneer spec features? Power supplies? Components? All based on a design philosophy and budget? Perhaps giving priority to one feature over another?
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
sholling said:
So you don't think companies like Pioneer spec features? Power supplies? Components? All based on a design philosophy and budget? Perhaps giving priority to one feature over another?
Click to expand...
You are partially correct... :rolleyes:
A brand will prepare a PRD (product requirements document) for a target AVR platform, however when the target product is a commodity price is the driving factor. Check closely the subject category of price-point AVRs, do you really think there are significant differences between brands for power supplies, features, output power specs..
As long as the product passes the mandatory certifications UL, FCC, Dolby, DTS..
Lowest cost is the key point..

Next question.. :cool:

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
M Code said:
You are partially correct... :rolleyes:
A brand will prepare a PRD (product requirements document) for a target AVR platform, however when the target product is a commodity price is the driving factor. Check closely the subject category of price-point AVRs, do you really think there are significant differences between brands for power supplies, features, output power specs..
As long as the product passes the mandatory certifications UL, FCC, Dolby, DTS..
Lowest cost is the key point..

Next question.. :cool:

Just my $0.02... ;)
Click to expand...
Then wouldn't both units weigh the same?
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
gmichael said:
Then wouldn't both units weigh the same?
Click to expand...
They could..
But as previously noted the differences are also in the ID/chassis tooling, one may use a plastic panel the other aluminum. Also chassis dimensions may vary 1 is 420 m/m in width while another is 435 m/m...

Just my $0.02.. ;)
 
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