What's in a speaker upgrade...or how high is up?

[PENG]

Disclaimer: Please understand that I am by no means the be-all/end-all source for A/V knowledge. I am constantly learning and open to change. I can only state my opinions and experiences and absolutely respect any and everyone’s opinions and findings through their experience. If my posts come across as harsh, I apologize in advance to those I may offend.

Peng,

You are correct and basically just reiterated my point. Speaking in a general sense, the Yamaha RX-V2600 or a Denon 3806 are designed to power speakers of a certain ilk. $1K to $2K speakers are oftentimes not a stretch for something like that. I’m sure that those models can power all sorts of speakers and give a great sound. However, what I am saying is that those products may or may not have the capabilities to get the most out of the speakers someone is upgrading to. The original post was about upgrading speakers and at what point was it worth it or not. I guarantee you that if someone with a Denon 3806 and a pair of $2K Polks went out and bought a pair of Canton Karat Reference 6.2’s at $9K a pair they would not be getting anywhere close to the sound that those speakers were designed to put out. Don’t believe me? Go look in the review section of AH and pull up the Canton Karat review link. One of the cons is “Require high-powered/current amp for optimal performance”. That means, don’t hook them up to a $1K receiver and expect them to perform like a $9K speaker should. I spoke of the Gallo Reference’s in an earlier post. Those speakers are in the $3K range and need a strong amp to run them. Gallo even designed them to be used with a separate amp as well as one of their own amps for optimal performance. A $1K receiver just is not going to give you anywhere close to your $ worth with those speakers.

For those of you thinking, “I.T.I., who would go from $2K speakers to $9K speakers? That’s not common.” That is a big jump, true. But I have news for you. Several speakers in the Karat line are built with the same engineering principles (as are the Vento’s above them) and would benefit from a high current amp. Speaking from personal experience, I have a customer who had some Polk RTI-1000 tower speakers ($500 each MSRP) and the matching center and rears being powered by an Onkyo TX-DS787 ($1000 MSRP) being used for HT. My customer wanted to upgrade so we got rid of the Polks and put in a set of Jamo D7 THX Ultra 2 certified speakers ($1K each + Sub). The customer wanted to keep his receiver because it sounded fine with the other speakers. Might as well give it a shot, right? Well, guess what? The D7’s sounded good (better than the Polks), but not worth $8K. Keep in mind that I have installed these before both in other customer’s homes as well as my own (secondary theater/sitting area). They are normally outstanding and one of the best speaker sets for movies that I have ever heard. We switched out his receiver with a Marantz SR9600 and it made a strong difference. Doing this for seven years has afforded me a lot of real life examples involving both high and low $ systems. This doesn’t just happen with really expensive gear.

As for the details about the amp… Without getting really deep into it I will say this. If what you are saying is true, then two cars with the same horsepower would be guaranteed to perform identically. We all know that this is not true and that there’s a lot more that goes into making a car’s engine go fast or run smooth. That thought process is also not true with receivers and amps. Two speakers from two different companies might have the same specs, but not sound anywhere close to the same. There are hidden details (and no, I’m not talking about snake oil) in a lot of equipment. But, you can’t tell the difference until you drive the car or listen to the stereo. Then make up your mind based on what you feel sounds best for your $.

Also, spending more money doesn’t by you more reliability. Will an $80K Cadillac last longer than a $15K Honda? It’s anybody’s guess, but I would bet that there’s more stuff on the Cadillac that could potentially break vs. anything that would make it last longer. In my experience one pays for feature’s, looks, prestige, sometimes convenience, and (often times) performance when dealing with A/V. As far as build quality goes, I can tell you that the $300 Onkyo is built with the same vigor and quality that the $5000 has. Harmon Kardon is the same. Heck, going by looks it’s tough to tell one HK from another half the time.

Do my examples make sense?

Again, I have to agree with you that some speakers are difficult to drive and require some hi power/quality amps to get the best of them. Your car example does not make sense, not to me anyway. Actually I do agree with what you said in that example, but it doesn't contradict what I said about amps. That's what confuses me.

When I compare the performance of cars I don't just look at the h.p. but I look at their h.p. and torque vs engine rpm graph, acceleration specs, such as 0 to 30 mph, 40, 50, 60, 100 mph etc., and many other performance (brakes, road holding, noise level) related numbers. Likewise, when I compare the spec of amps I don't just look at the power rating alone. That's why I qualify my argument by listing some examples (not all) of what we should be looking for such as frequency response, distortion, damping factor, ability to drive highly inductive/capacitive loads. Well, it's unlikely that we can agree on everything, hopefully the original poster have enough view points for him to reach his own conclusion.

 

[InTheIndustry]

I apologize, then. I must have not understood what you had posted. My point with the car was that there are many different things that go into making a car perform. You can’t just go by specs. Different manufacturers rate their receivers differently. There really is no set standard between companies. Some state that their receiver can put out 100 watts per channel, but in real world use, that is bogus. 100 watts per channel from a receiver designed for high current and 100 watts per channel from a typical (read not ES) Sony, Panasonic, Kenwood, JVC, etc. are not equal. One would be a high current product capable of delivering more constant watts to the speaker to make the speaker sound better and the other brand would be listing peak wattage that cannot be sustained or reliably used. This has nothing to do with loudness. The same is true with contrast ratio in the video industry as there is no set standard that TV manufacturers go with to get the contrast ratio on a set.

Same thing with the cars. It's not just the horse power. There's a lot more too it. How that horse power is delivered to the wheels makes all the difference in the world relevant to performance. Two engines rated at the same horse power do not always perform the same. At any speed. Amplifiers are similar in the sense of how/how much/when their power is delivered to the speakers.

That's why they sound different as you step up through models. There are other factors involved, yes, but the better delivery and power increase is in no small way responsible for better sound (which happens at any volume).

Therefore, when someone asks where value would be in upgrading their speakers in a certain $ range, my answer is: A: That depends on what speakers you are coming from and going to ; and B: You may have to get a more powerful amp/receiver to get the most out of your new speakers depending on what amp/receiver you currently have.

 

[Nick250]

To keep with the car metaphor (great post Peng!), a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord will ride better, will be put together better, be quieter in the cabin, get better gas mileage, be more reliable, last longer, be more comfortable for most people, hold it's resale value better than any Rolls, Benz, Jag, Caddy, Lincoln, Lamborghini, Ferrari, etc. If you want fast, order your Camry or Accord with the V6. If you want fast and fun to drive get an Acura TL (about 33 Gs give or take). If you want to impress the neighbors or you pals at the country club, get one of the other cars.

The point is I think there is a hugh amount of ego involved with high end electronics without any benefit. Let me add though, I know there is a pride of ownership in high end products, and I understand that. I have those feelings too and sometimes indulge them. But at least go in to your mid/high end store as an informed consumer with your eyes wide open and your head screwed on straight knowing in all likelyhood that you can get equal perofomance and quality for less. That being said, the higher end electronics be your ticket just because.... and that's ok too. That's how I see.

IMHO, YMMV yadda, yadda.

Regards, Nick

 

[InTheIndustry]

Nick250,

Did you just imply that there is not a performance difference between a Honda Accord and a Ferrari? Did you just say that if you want fast, get a Camry with a V6 or an Acura TL? If this is truly how you feel, than that's your choice and I can understand your thoughts on A/V. But to say that an Accord is more comfortable to most people than a Bentley is ridiculous and you have nothing to back that up. To assert that most consumers can't tell the difference between A/V systems of varying price points past a certain mark that you have personally set is equally ridiculous and equally unsubstantiated. If a Toyota is fast enough for you, than fine. But is it reasonable to lump people together who want the best performance that their money can buy and label them as “uninformed” because they spent an amount that you disapprove of? Can you get better for less? Sure. Personally, I'd rather have a Corvette for $50K and $40K in my pocket than just a Porsche for $90K. But there are a million Porsche owners (notice I said owners) out there with a million reasons as to why they think I'm wrong.

Nice electronics aren't solely purchased to impress people. People who read a few magazine articles or a few blogs on the internet and convince themselves of that and then call themselves "informed consumers" often times become misinformed. Do I turn my nose up at people with an HTIB as their system? No way. Some of those can be really really nice and do a great job. It just depends on the person. Am I an advocate of $100K speakers or $15K DVD players? I personally don't see a great value in them... for me. One of my favorite 2 channel setups I’ve ever owned was an Onkyo MC-25tech. Its MSRP is 500 bucks and I think it’s awesome - a bargain at twice the price. Do I recommend to spend a fortune on cables & interconnects because they have a battery pack connected to them? Heck no. There is a point of diminishing return which is set different for everybody, we can all agree on that. However, just because yours is set at a certain point doesn’t mean that you are an “informed consumer” and that people who spend more are wasting their money just to show off. That’s being an elitist.

 

[PENG]

I apologize, then. I must have not understood what you had posted. My point with the car was that there are many different things that go into making a car perform. You can’t just go by specs. Different manufacturers rate their receivers differently. There really is no set standard between companies. Some state that their receiver can put out 100 watts per channel, but in real world use, that is bogus. 100 watts per channel from a receiver designed for high current and 100 watts per channel from a typical (read not ES) Sony, Panasonic, Kenwood, JVC, etc. are not equal. One would be a high current product capable of delivering more constant watts to the speaker to make the speaker sound better and the other brand would be listing peak wattage that cannot be sustained or reliably used. This has nothing to do with loudness. The same is true with contrast ratio in the video industry as there is no set standard that TV manufacturers go with to get the contrast ratio on a set.

First of all, please note that I edited my last sentence in my last post. I meant to say "it is unlikely that we can agree on everything..........".

Secondly, please don't feel you have to apologize, it is not hard to misunderstood my post. That said, if you looked at it again you would see that I did not just compare amps by their specified output power. In the example I used, I included examples of other factors (freq response, THD, damping factor etc., the list can get long) that support a more "realistic" power specifications. The fact is, if the output power is specified along with the other relevant factors/parameters, there should be little difference in terms of current capability between different amps that specify the same "watts", because current, voltage, power, power factor, load impedance are all interrelated; and the forumla for their calculations are straight forward for most electrical designers or engineeers. If you look at the "watts" number only, then it can be a problem.

It still seems to me we agree on most things, just not the car example, that's all. Thanks again!

 

[Tomorrow]

I would like to clarify my overall inquiry in this thread. My thoughts are half-baked and perhaps wander...my apologies. Here is what happened in reality...

I wanted to upgrade my speakers to a more 'musical' and 'neutral' value. Sounds logical and sane, yes? But please keep in mind that I have a minimalist's budget available. I really wanted some Aerials which I have auditioned at a B&M store, fell in love with, but in no way could afford. I currently have JBL Studio Series S312 mains. I bought/auditioned a recommended speaker (that will remain nameless) which is a small, three-way monitor of sealed design. The frequency range of the auditioned speakers is a bit more restricted than my JBL's, so I decided to get a receiver that had a more sophisticated crossover system and more watts/damping/inputs/etc while I was at it. I bought a new Yamaha RX-V2500 and am selling the old Panasonic 105 wpc. These are the specifics.

What I found was that I could drive the speakers with ease with either receiver and I noted no change in speaker performance. But I wasn't getting the highly anticipated breakthrough in musicality from the new speaks. My curiosity led me to the question about amplification. And that's how we got on that track.

But more than that, I wondered about "what the heck IS a speaker upgrade"? It seemed like a philosophical question more than a practical one was necessary. As I said in an earlier post, we toss around terms like "high-end", "warm", "improved drivers", "dynamic"...all of these terms are used trying to describe the subjective nature of the sound that hits our ears/brain. We kind of skipped over the importance of those terms related to "more expensive" or "upgrade". How much do you pay for what level of improvement (with an upgrade) of .....as an example, "dynamics"?

I am forced to conclude that speakers are good, only if your ears tell you they're good. So how do you go about getting "gooder" sounds in an upgrade? Any time you change speakers you change the entire formula of mechanics driving the sound that is hitting your ears and then interpreted by your brain. And speakers are nothing more than transducers. Unless you have the artist sitting in your room with you while you're playing his or her cd (the ultimate A-B test ), you have no idea if it has a "live" or "neutral", or whatever sound. If you like the speaker sound, that's all that matters. (And this even includes the possibility of liking underamped speakers.)

The next, natural follow-on question then is "how do I upgrade that sound/speaker"? And even if I find a similar but improved (more to my liking) speaker, how will that improvement be measured and what is the relevance of incremental, subjectively heard improvements to the cost?

See, I've warned you twice now that this seems really irrational. The only thing I can figure is that one just needs to audition audition audition to find speakers that one likes better than what one already has. But there is no such thing as an "upgrade"...nor is it in any way tied to cost.

I have this sinking feeling that I just lost everybody. I'm old...hopefully you'll allow that as an excuse, lol.

 

[majorloser]

Not only do I understand what you are saying, I feel your pain

We may eventually find our Nirvana in speaker, but it probably won't fit our budget. I guess the real question is, "What's good enough to keep us happy and out of the poor house?"

And

"When I get a little more money later, what's the next step?"

ADMIN: Please hide the following from Loserwife.

Fortunately I've been able to waste a lot of money through the years trying to reach my audio Nirvana. I probably will never reach a level that will be "good enough".

I can only hope I hit the lottery so I won't have to beg my CFO for better project funding

 

[Nick250]

Nick250,

Did you just imply that there is not a performance difference between a Honda Accord and a Ferrari? Did you just say that if you want fast, get a Camry with a V6 or an Acura TL? If this is truly how you feel, than that's your choice and I can understand your thoughts on A/V. But to say that an Accord is more comfortable to most people than a Bentley is ridiculous and you have nothing to back that up. To assert that most consumers can't tell the difference between A/V systems of varying price points past a certain mark that you have personally set is equally ridiculous and equally unsubstantiated. If a Toyota is fast enough for you, than fine. But is it reasonable to lump people together who want the best performance that their money can buy and label them as “uninformed” because they spent an amount that you disapprove of? Can you get better for less? Sure. Personally, I'd rather have a Corvette for $50K and $40K in my pocket than just a Porsche for $90K. But there are a million Porsche owners (notice I said owners) out there with a million reasons as to why they think I'm wrong.

Nice electronics aren't solely purchased to impress people. People who read a few magazine articles or a few blogs on the internet and convince themselves of that and then call themselves "informed consumers" often times become misinformed. Do I turn my nose up at people with an HTIB as their system? No way. Some of those can be really really nice and do a great job. It just depends on the person. Am I an advocate of $100K speakers or $15K DVD players? I personally don't see a great value in them... for me. One of my favorite 2 channel setups I’ve ever owned was an Onkyo MC-25tech. Its MSRP is 500 bucks and I think it’s awesome - a bargain at twice the price. Do I recommend to spend a fortune on cables & interconnects because they have a battery pack connected to them? Heck no. There is a point of diminishing return which is set different for everybody, we can all agree on that. However, just because yours is set at a certain point doesn’t mean that you are an “informed consumer” and that people who spend more are wasting their money just to show off. That’s being an elitist.

The Ferrari is a limited use toy. If you pay to have it taken to a race track it will be great fun. On the public road within the realms of sanity and safety it is a very very poor car to drive, not fun and in fact a pain since you can not see beside you or beside you because the cars aerodynamics design restricts your view, it will overheat in traffic, it will ride like a truck, it will break down a lot. In the rain, well, don't even consider it. Given these factors, yes on the public road you can get from point a to point b more quickly, reliably and comfortably in the Accord or Camry.

The exception to this all is the Porsche. A Porsche(AWD version) is the only super car that can be considered for a daily driver IMO.

Enough of the car metaphor. The bottom line is I think that diminishing returns on audio electronics kicks in a lot soon than you do. There have several DBTs between inexpensive receivers and a lot more expensive separates and the golden ears have never been able to distinguish between them. There is a thread on a recent test over at AVS right now. The subjectavists have their panties all in an uproar of course, but they have no evidence to support their case. None. I have never heard of a DBT test which showed the reverse, that the golden ears could distinguish between the two.

You seem like a nice, smart guy with a lot to offer the readers here on AH. Welcome to the forum . From my perspective it's more than "let your ears decide" since we know (or at least "I am very confident") there is so much placebo effect in audio and that at the mid to hi end B&Ms the uniformed consumer is often taken to the cleaners.

 

[PENG]

The next, natural follow-on question then is "how do I upgrade that sound/speaker"? And even if I find a similar but improved (more to my liking) speaker, how will that improvement be measured and what is the relevance of incremental, subjectively heard improvements to the cost?

Musical could be a subjective thing but neutrality (as opposed to colored) could be quite real. You could search the web for professional reviews, especially those reviewed by people who are musicians, and read as many as you can find. Take note of those described as musical and neutral and then go and audition them if they fit in your budget range. If you are still thinking of between $1K to 2K, there should be no shortages of nice 3 way bookshelves or even floor standers. To determine if a pair of speakers sound neutral, I would compare it to the kind of sound I heard in live orchestral concerts, where you hear mostly musical instruments directly, without much influence of the electronics. I know this is still easier said then done but I cannot think of any other way to find out what is really better, or true upgrades.

One other point, I know price is not always an indicator of how good a speaker may sound to you, but I do believe speakers below a certain price point tend to sound thin, harsh, lack of clarity and you could hear distortion if you push them even slighly too hard. Once you get pass that point, it does become much more difficult to determine what the heck an upgrade is. Lastly, I have the feeling that, besides Aerial, you may like the B&W 700/800 series speakers.

 

[ExtraCheese]

RJ,

Having owned those JBL Studio Series speakers, I think it's going to be tough to find a "revelation" above that in that price range.

Obviously no one can give a definitive answer to this question. The only thing one can do, is audition way outside your budget and figure out where you want to be and then figure out what gets you closest to that unattainable mark.

 

[Tomorrow]

RJ,

Having owned those JBL Studio Series speakers, I think it's going to be tough to find a "revelation" above that in that price range.

Obviously no one can give a definitive answer to this question. The only thing one can do, is audition way outside your budget and figure out where you want to be and then figure out what gets you closest to that unattainable mark.

Hey Cheese.

I think you and I are the only ones on AH who feel that way about these speakers. I'd wager that 99% of the people that downgrade JBL's have NOT heard these. I'll say this...after auditioning to perhaps 20 different brands of speakers, featuring a variety of prices and 'quality' components...I have much new-found respect for these beasts. So the search continues to be frustrating. But your advice is spot on.

Nevertheless, there remains this burning, unrequited love for those Aerial 7B's, lol........

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Hey Cheese.

I think you and I are the only ones on AH who feel that way about these speakers. I'd wager that 99% of the people that downgrade JBL's have NOT heard these. I'll say this...after auditioning to perhaps 20 different brands of speakers, featuring a variety of prices and 'quality' components...I have much new-found respect for these beasts. So the search continues to be frustrating. But your advice is spot on.

Nevertheless, there remains this burning, unrequited love for those Aerial 7B's, lol........

H rj,

You sound like your first real love in high school just dumped you for the QB of the football team. (women analagies...this could get interesting...)

Seriously, walk away from it for a little while. I think we all want too much and need to learn to be happy with what we have sometimes. Some "upgrade" often but I would bet that those "upgrades" are just different not "better". People like different on occation.

So unless something else crops up for you It will take $5000 a pair to call it an upgrade. At least you know what you want.

I have waited because the speakers I have heard in the stores (in my price range) are not enough of an upgrade to warrant the price. Internet direct is another route but my gut tells me I will be disapointed and will take ordering axioms, ascends & av123's and do a in house comparo, so I've been dragging my feet. (don't feel like hearing about it from the wife) I just want to walk into a store and think "Hey these are great speakers and in my price range"...everyone has a value system...I guess I expect too much.

Sit back relax put in you favorite disc and enjoy,
SBF1

 

[STRONGBADF1]

What about vintage upgrade?

FWIW...found this over at AudioKarma.org...

ADS/Aerial Connection

It is most amusing that you chose the Aerial 10T as your example. I was fortunate to hear the very first working samples many years back when Aerial was still deciding on the final spelling of its name.

The principal of Aerial is Michael Kelly. Michael was president of ADS until ~1986 and absolutely had influence on products such as the L880 & many, many others. The second partner of Aerial is David Marshall. David was one of the key mechanical designers for ADS until ~1990. Virtually every speaker that ADS built up to that point fell under his pen.

They don't get any better than these 2 gentlemen in the audio business.

Maybe mabe not,
SBF1

 

[InTheIndustry]

Yeah, right! What about DR. Bose?

 

[Tomorrow]

H rj,

You sound like your first real love in high school just dumped you for the QB of the football team. (women analagies...this could get interesting...)
SBF1

LOL, I was just a lowly cheerleader and baseball player. She was the head 'majorette'...you know, the baton twirler. I think she dumped me for some guy who was headed off to Johns Hopkins to be a doctor. Well, talk about dodging a bullet....later on she got real fat and lost that cute, freckled face.

But yeah...I'm seeing speaker analogies to women...hmmm. Advent sub = Roseanne Barr...bloated and cheap. Mission Elegante = Katherine Hepburn...tiny, shiny, and sophisticated. Klipsch = Pamela Anderson...big top side, loud. The possibilities are endless.

I did just as you suggested last night and spent a quiet two hours watching/listening to Celtic Woman. Fabulous show and incredible music. This presentation would make even crappy speakers shine. The DVD gets the Olde Man's Seal of Audio Approval and is highly recommended...even if you don't like modern Celtic music.

As far as the 'upgrade' goes...I'm gonna start calling it the Speaker Topology Improvement Project (STOP!). I may eventually give Paradigm another chance...in-home this time. I'm still quite impressed by the openess and depth of their small monitors. It's just that they sound not-so-good for music...great for HT.

 

[danglerb]

Years ago it was explained to me that the budget for drivers is about 1/8 of the retail price, with the cost of crossover parts and cabinet too variable to generalize, but often about the same when added together. $1000 retail speakers get about $62 per speaker for drivers (don't forget the manufacturer pays much less than what we might see the driver sold for one at a time). That isn't a lot of money to work with. Until you get to about $3000 to $6000 a pair designers aren't really free to play with all the latest and best parts.

Speakers are also very much a roll of the dice, you just can't predict what is going to have results that merit the cost. A dozen or more box types, different baffle boards, and totally silly numbers of different crossovers, with many of them requiring hours of listening and testing to even evaluate.

There are wonderfull speakers at many many price levels, each with there own qualities and flaws.

What makes me upgrade is if the speaker can do something I want that the old speaker can't, and of course the flaws in the new speaker don't annoy me more than the flaws of the old speaker.

Plenty of things besides better sound can keep me from upgrading too, money, size, amp requirements, ugly as sin, only sold by somebody that annoys me, plenty of stuff. I remember listening to pair of small 2ways with a powered subwoofer, and the sound in many ways was just stunning, but it wasn't the direction I was going in, a dipole guy, and it would have taken a total rethinking to take that path even enough to decide how much I really liked it. Same for tubes I have had some wonderfull one night stands, but no desire to marry them.

 

[Nick250]

I have had some wonderfull one night stands, but no desire to marry them.

I know the feeling.

 

[ExtraCheese]

Hey Cheese.

I think you and I are the only ones on AH who feel that way about these speakers. I'd wager that 99% of the people that downgrade JBL's have NOT heard these. I'll say this...after auditioning to perhaps 20 different brands of speakers, featuring a variety of prices and 'quality' components...I have much new-found respect for these beasts. So the search continues to be frustrating. But your advice is spot on.

Nevertheless, there remains this burning, unrequited love for those Aerial 7B's, lol........

Yeah, I wish I had kept mine!

I'm beginning to think that it's a conspiracy that I can't find a decent pair of floorstanders that can do everything right for under 3K.

I mean... I was expecting flying cars by 2006.

 

[Tomorrow]

I found this thread today while looking for a past quote of mine. (I knew my half-joking comments about Klipsch would eventually get me snagged in the nuggets by Klipsch owners. LOL.) I ended up rereading the entire thread.

Anyway, there is some wonderful advice from many sources, herein. I heartily recommend those of you who have not read this thread...do so. I thought I'd update you all. I had much education delivered to me by some great AH members who have world's of experience in audio. I again want to thank all who participated in advising me in my amateur's search for understanding.

So...did I get the Aerials? Sadly...no. But I spoke with Aerial management, did much research, and have been sold on the LR5's. http://www.aerialacoustics.com/html/prods.html Now I just need to keep saving my Pepsi cans for the next 6 years or so and I'll be able to afford a used set. I have also continued to audition dozens of speaker brands looking for that illusive 'upgrade'. It truly is a moving (and expensive) target. Sonus Faber Domus models came the closest to usurping the throne of "most wanted"...actually surpassed the Aerial 7B's for my ears. But the LR5's....aw...I'll take either, now that I think of it.

At least I've finally identified the direct competition for my affections. (Affections? The missus and I have been married for many decades, so she doesn't mind. )

 

[mike c]

ha, one year later, I have something to add:

a 1k upgrade does not give you 1k worth of "speaker" upgrade, but I believe most of it goes to better enclosure materials, better build quality of the enclosure, better finish on the enclosure ... and like someone said in this thread, simply a louder version of the cheaper model (via multiple drivers).