What's happening to JBL?

[tonmeister]

I understand the theory but in practice it is time consuming and require a lot of patience besides knowledge. After adding two subs to my surround channels I am actually worse off in bass. Being too busy trying to make a living I have to wait until I can book a week vacation to sort the bass of my 3 subs and the floor standers out. Until then it seems to me I am better off turning the added subs off. Good thing I can only afford 3, if I remember correctly some forum member (e.g.Mike C?) have much more than that and I always wonder how did they find time to make them work together properly.

If you have a rectangular-shaped room with similar structured walls, a symmetrical loudspeaker setup, and 4 identical subwoofers, the process is quite simple: you put the 4 subwoofers in the corners (for maximum output/efficiency), and make sure they have the same relative level/polarity/cross-over. Adjust the overall sub level from your receiver sending the 4 subs an identical mono signal from the subwoofer output of your receiver. Adjust the sub level output of the receiver until your set up sounds balanced and well-integrated with satellites, or measures correctly, if you have measurement capability.

That (Step 1) will get you 80-90% down the path towards getting decent bass over a wider seating area. The other 20% (Step 2) is equalizing the subwoofers/satellite loudspeakers which will help remove any remaining peaks and broad dips measured over the seating area.

In our Reference Listening room, after Step 1, we needed very little equalization to acheive the smooth in-room response across the 6 seats shown in slide 16 of this presentation. That's because the subwoofers do most of the dirty work of cancelling the odd-order width and length room modes, and unlike the room correction, this process we call Sound Field Management (SFM) has much greater benefit over more seats than room correction does.

 

[PhilCohen]

Hi Phil,

I can assure you that JBL is not going away any time soon. Among Harman's brands, it's the oldest, stalwart crown jewel, and it generates the most income among our consumer, professional and automotive branded audio systems. As a business, Harman is quite healthy these days: its share price increased almost 175% over the past 12 months, and there are aggressive plans in place to grow the business even further.

While the economic recession and reorganization of the company may have slowed down the release of new consumer products over the past 2 years, I would expect that to change in the next 12 months.

Someone already pointed out that, with the exception of subwoofers, consumer loudspeakers with 12+ inch woofers are not popular sellers due to the large footprint/baffle they require. So, not many manufacturers are making them anymore. Even the Revel Salons and Studios don't use such large drivers but rather use an array of smaller drivers to give the equivalent or higher SPL but without the need for a larger, wider baffle.

The use of multiple subwoofers placed in corners or at mid-points of the room to cancel odd-order room modes, offer compelling benefits over using full-range main channels w/o bass management. Subwoofers also make mains channel speaker placement easier, reduce the seat-to-seat variance in response below 100 Hz, and make the bass more consistent from channel to channel. Purchasing four subwoofers and calibrating them would be the single largest improvement you could make to your existing setup. Our research has shown that bass quality accounts for about 30% of a listener's overall loudspeaker preference rating, so it's something you cannot ignore.

If you really want a JBL floor-standingspeaker with a 12-inch+ woofer you're going to have to step up in price to the JBL Synthesis lineup that includes Everest, K-series and Project Array.

If woofer size really matters to you (and it shouldn't, given the alternative solutions I've suggested) then you are going to have a rather large wallet to acquire it -

But take a look at the U.S.A. version of JBL's website. Recently, those high-end, made for millionaires parts of JBL's product line have been removed from the website.

I guess JBL has basically decided that Cerwin-Vega(at the low end) and Legacy(at the high end) can serve the parts of the marketplace that wants a floorstanding speaker(not for millionaires) with a 12" woofer.
As for the JBL TL260 speakers(sold only in England, Europe & Australia), maybe JBL realizes that if consumers here in the U.S.A. had a choice between the slender speakers with dual 8" woofers, or larger, politically incorrect speakers(such as the TL260) with a single 12" woofer, that many consumers would opt for the 12" woofer. Speaker manufacturers in the U.S.A. don't want us to have that choice, hence no marketing of the TL260 in North America.

And, as for slender speakers(with 8" woofers) which have horn-loaded mid or tweeter drivers, the fact that(several times) JBL got "cold feet" at the last minute, opting not to sell the LS series in North America, it may be, basically, that JBL knows that they can't compete against Klipsch on horn loaded speakers in the U.S.A., because Klipsch owns the market for horn-loaded speakers, and internet-feedback to the LS series was already sneering at the idea of a $4000 per pair speaker with no response below 48Hz.

JBL executives can't understand why the millions of people who purchased JBL floorstanding speakers before the start of the slender, politically correct, spouse-approved speaker fad, would see an "upgrade" to speakers with dual 8" woofers as a downgrade. JBL closed the door on having those millions of earlier customers as future customers.

Even if JBL's future speakers have greater midrange or treble clarity or smoothness(versus my existing JBL's), I'll have to sacrifice deep bass to obtain that. That's why I'm sticking with my existing JBL's(which, with proper care, may well last a lifetime).

The idea of a speaker series better than the two mass-market lines("L" & "ES") but still within the reach of a middle-class consumer, is something that JBL isn't interested in. As for those made for millionaires/sold by 5 dealers in the country product lines, they are merely a statement product to enhance a corporate image. They can't be selling many or generating much revenue. Even the people who can afford those speakers are unlikely to purchase something that can't be bought within a few hundred miles of where they live, and which will inevitably have no local repair service.

 

[AJinFLA]

I guess JBL has basically decided that Cerwin-Vega(at the low end) and Legacy(at the high end) can serve the parts of the marketplace that wants a floorstanding speaker(not for millionaires) with a 12" woofer.

Actually, the marketplace decided that. JBL responded accordingly.

As for the JBL TL260 speakers(sold only in England, Europe & Australia), maybe JBL realizes that if consumers here in the U.S.A. had a choice between the slender speakers with dual 8" woofers, or larger, politically incorrect speakers(such as the TL260) with a single 12" woofer, that many consumers would opt for the 12" woofer.

That is neither logical nor rational. If they "realized" that "many" would opt for 12's, they would still be available (in the "mass" marketplace).
They chose dual 8's because they grasp basic physics and understand current marketplace demands.

JBL executives can't understand why the millions of people who purchased JBL floorstanding speakers before the start of the slender, politically correct, spouse-approved speaker fad, would see an "upgrade" to speakers with dual 8" woofers as a downgrade. Even if JBL's future speakers have greater midrange or treble clarity or smoothness(versus my existing JBL's), I'll have to sacrifice deep bass to obtain that.

Or perhaps JBL's executives know their engineers understand the basic physics of 2x8" vs 1x12"? That there is no reason why dual 8" L890's can't go as loud and deep as a S312? But that someone who has never heard them....and has purely aesthetic or physically invalid reasons....may still find reason to complain.

That's why I'm sticking with my existing JBL's(which, with proper care, may well last a lifetime).

That seems prudent, given your rather narrow, specific requirements.

cheers,

AJ

 

[PhilCohen]

But one time, when I contacted JBL by e-mail, they even stated that the more narrow floorstanding speakers(with dual 8" woofers) had "Spouse approval factor". They stated that by making the cabinets deeper that they could achieve deep bass with dual 8" woofers, and that since the speakers would likely be used with a subwoofer, that this is "A winning combination"(I.E. the narrow floorstanding speakers plus a subwoofer).

 

[PhilCohen]

I guess then, they don't make them like they used to.

Then I'll enjoy what I've got. All audio purchase decisions involve some compromises. I may not have the smoothest, most detailed midrange & highs, but I've got lows that can rock the house down. Between the four S312II's & the S120PII subwoofer, I've got five 12" woofers in my system. The subwoofer has a 400 watt amplifier, and I'm using an Adcom GFA-7700(185 watts x 5) to power the S312II's.

 

[JerryLove]

Actually, there presently are no dedicated Hifi stores in my area(the northern half of Miami-Dade County,Florida),

A really quick search found two. There are likely several more.

SOUND COMPONENTS
1536 S. DIXIE HIGHWAY
CORAL GABLES, FL
33146
305-665-4299

Showtime Audio Video
1157 NW 159th Dr. ,
Suite 100A,
Miami,
Florida 33169
Tel: (305) 443-5555

 

[JerryLove]

It sounds like JBL is being focuse. Simply put HK has a lot of brands, and it does little good for them to compete with each other. Same reason that Toyota got rid of their high-end packages when Lexus came.

My guess: if you want a high-end JBL, it just won't have a JBL logo on it.

 

[PhilCohen]

A really quick search found two. There are likely several more.

SOUND COMPONENTS
1536 S. DIXIE HIGHWAY
CORAL GABLES, FL
33146
305-665-4299

Showtime Audio Video
1157 NW 159th Dr. ,
Suite 100A,
Miami,
Florida 33169
Tel: (305) 443-5555

I wouldn't say that either one of them is in the Northern half of Miami-Dade County, certainly Coral Gables isn't. I'm vaguely aware of "Sound Components", a "Salon" dealer that took over many of the brand lines that were sold in the 1960's, 1970's & 1980's by Miami's long-defunct "Hifi Associates".

 

[PhilCohen]

It sounds like JBL is being focuse. Simply put HK has a lot of brands, and it does little good for them to compete with each other. Same reason that Toyota got rid of their high-end packages when Lexus came.

My guess: if you want a high-end JBL, it just won't have a JBL logo on it.

But even JBL's high-end cousins(in the Harmon International family) at Revel follow the slender speakers with "8 woofers fad/formula, but with an amp-power-hungry inefficiency that is the polar opposite of JBL's design philosophy.
JBL apparently does still make some high end product(though no longer shown on the JBL website). They're sold by five dealers scattered around the country, and priced for the very rich($11,000 to $30,000 per pair), so not in my price range.

 

[TLS Guy]

But even JBL's high-end cousins(in the Harmon International family) at Revel follow the slender speakers with "8 woofers fad/formula, but with an amp-power-hungry inefficiency that is the polar opposite of JBL's design philosophy.
JBL apparently does still make some high end product(though no longer shown on the JBL website). They're sold by five dealers scattered around the country, and priced for the very rich($11,000 to $30,000 per pair), so not in my price range.

You have to become rich if you want a good integrated speaker with large woofers.

There is nothing wrong with smaller woofers, although I admit bass extension for a given sensitivity is generally reduced.

If you use a large driver a three way speaker becomes mandatory. You then end up with two crossover points. This adds cost and complexity as well as introducing problems.

The next problem, is that passive crossovers give a poor account of themselves at crossover points below 350 Hz. So that commits you to an expensive wide band mid range unit certainly able to be crossed over at 3 kHz and preferable 4 kHz.

Then you have a lot of L-pads and resistors to match levels increasing insertion losses.

We are not done yet, as a large diameter driver requires a large baffle. Unless the mid and HF units are put in a separate enclosure, like the B & W 800D then you will all kinds of baffle reflections and with peaks and nulls. I solved it with a swept back enclosure for the mid and HF units, but carpentry becomes complex and costly.

So to use large drivers effectively active designs are required for the best results, and because of reflection and diffraction problems the cabinet becomes complex.

The last issue is cabinet size. 12 inch woofers tune in large cabinets to get low F3 points. If you put a large woofer in a sealed cabinet it will not have the bass extension of good smaller drivers in smaller cabinets.

Subs can get away with it because it is an active system. So efficiency and sensitivity can be sacrificed for smaller volume enclosures, and large power assigned to the last 1'5 to 2 octaves. This would not be possible with a passive design, because of the huge heat that would be generated in the crossover matching driver levels.

Producing a speaker with 10, 12 or 15 inch drivers as an integrated system will from now on be a luxury item.

The fact is a lot of these problems are solved by the use of smaller drivers in narrow cabinets that are either two way or 2.5 way.

If you think about it a speaker plus a sub is really a three way speaker that has an active crossover between woofer and the band pass drivers.

I agree there are problems with integration, but so there are in a three way system, that are best solved with active crossovers.

I personally believe a totally integrated full range design gives the best results, but it is a challenge and not cheap.

So low cost speakers with large drivers and passive crossovers should really be past their sell by date.

 

[PhilCohen]

Producing a speaker with 10, 12 or 15 inch drivers as an integrated system will from now on be a luxury item.

Are you suggesting that speakers with larger woofers can't be produced at sane prices? (I.E. less than the $11,500 per pair of JBL's lowest-priced offering for the North American market)
Here's some examples: Legacy "Focus HD"(two 12" woofers per loudspeaker,@ $6500 per pair), Klipsch RF-7(two 10" woofers per loudspeaker @ $2200 per pair,now offered only direct from Klipsch online), Cerwin-Vega XLS-215(two 15" woofers per loudspeaker @ $1200 per pair), and, of course that JBL model offered only in the UK, Europe & Australia,TL260(one 12" woofer per loudspeaker @ approximately $2600 per pair)

 

[DD66000]

Are you suggesting that speakers with larger woofers can't be produced at sane prices? (I.E. less than the $11,500 per pair of JBL's lowest-priced offering for the North American market)
Here's some examples: Legacy "Focus HD"(two 12" woofers per loudspeaker,@ $6500 per pair), Klipsch RF-7(two 10" woofers per loudspeaker @ $2200 per pair,now offered only direct from Klipsch online), Cerwin-Vega XLS-215(two 15" woofers per loudspeaker @ $1200 per pair), and, of course that JBL model offered only in the UK, Europe & Australia,TL260(one 12" woofer per loudspeaker @ approximately $2600 per pair)

Well, they could, but how many people would by them? Lets not forget the WAF, which has never been a problem of mine.
I like large drivers, but the L890 with its dual 8" gets low, to 28htz. Of coarse subs go lower, but I ran a pair of those, powered by 220w, w/o a sub and they were so good in the bass region, I was surprised. Not as good as my PT800/SUB1500 stacks or a pair of Revel Salon2 but still impressive.

 

[jinjuku]

You could...

Simply go with another product the fits what you want and most likely have very good sound quality.

If you are hung up on the speaker with the 12" woofer look at Madisounds SB12.3

 

[TLS Guy]

Are you suggesting that speakers with larger woofers can't be produced at sane prices? (I.E. less than the $11,500 per pair of JBL's lowest-priced offering for the North American market)
Here's some examples: Legacy "Focus HD"(two 12" woofers per loudspeaker,@ $6500 per pair), Klipsch RF-7(two 10" woofers per loudspeaker @ $2200 per pair,now offered only direct from Klipsch online), Cerwin-Vega XLS-215(two 15" woofers per loudspeaker @ $1200 per pair), and, of course that JBL model offered only in the UK, Europe & Australia,TL260(one 12" woofer per loudspeaker @ approximately $2600 per pair)

Yes I am. They can reproduce but where is the quality? I don't know the JBL, but CWs and certainly not Hi-Fi reproducers, and the Klipsch offerings can certainly be bested. The Legacy is getting pricey. I heard their offerings a few years back and we will say no more.

Now take the Madisound kit. It makes my point. The enclosure is still pretty large, and because the speaker has to be sealed to keep it acceptable size, the F3 is only 37 Hz, which can be bested by many speakers using smaller drivers.

The cost is 1K for drivers and crossover, and then you have to furnish the cabinets. At the standard price it has electrolytic caps in the crossover. To upgrade to do the job right to get rid of those adds another $150. So if this were a complete speaker retailed it would be 4 to 5K and that is getting pricey. And after all that it will still have significant compromises.

It only scores over most of its rivals with smaller drivers, is a 3db increase in sensitivity as you would expect.

That concept as was pointed out in the early threads, is a poor business plan.

If you want that approach it should be DIY and expect large enclosures.

 

[AJinFLA]

But one time, when I contacted JBL by e-mail, they even stated that the more narrow floorstanding speakers(with dual 8" woofers) had "Spouse approval factor".

There is something inherently wrong with that?

They stated that by making the cabinets deeper that they could achieve deep bass with dual 8" woofers, and that since the speakers would likely be used with a subwoofer, that this is "A winning combination"(I.E. the narrow floorstanding speakers plus a subwoofer).

Right.
They would have told you the same thing years ago, had you called about the S312II.

The numbers (per JBL)
JBL S312II
Sensitivity, 2.83V/1m - 92db (Avg)
FR (-3db) ....... 35Hz – 20kHz
Dimensions: 14.7 W x 12.5 D x 41 H inches

JBL L890
Sensitivity, 2.83V/1m - 91db (Avg)
FR (-3db) ........ 28Hz – 40kHz
Dimensions: 10.25 W x 15 D x 42.25 H inches

Basically, the L890 is the S312 turned sideways. I've already given you the difference in Sd (cone area), though not swept volume, which requires linear travel (Xmax). Your argument is based on emotion, not logic.
If you absolutely must have a 12" woofer (and correspondingly wide cabinet) for S312 type prices, to avoid a "downgrade", then your self imposed options are limited.
You might give the CV CLS-12 an objective (if possible) look. It is well designed and might surprise you SQ wise.
Or not .

cheers,

AJ

 

[PhilCohen]

Yet.....there are people elsewhere on the internet(on the Steve Hoffman forums, a music and audio equipment forum), who made equally persuasive arguments(which were technically over my head, but also supported by THEIR mathematics) that dual 8" woofers couldn't produce as much bass as one 12" woofer.
But there's one shopping choice that I have occasionally considered, which just might work: Klipsch's RF-7(dual 10" woofers) or Klipsch RF-83(triple "8 woofers). These options almost certainly would equal a speaker with one 12" woofer.
For me, however, there's another consideration(though certainly not a primary one): a more slender cabinet, on my thick-carpeted floor might be more unstable, and more easily toppled than the wider floorstanding speakers that I have now.
But, the inability to actually HEAR new generation slender loudspeakers in a local store makes me reluctant to change from what I have now. You see, I could spend 5 to 6 times the amount of money that I spent on my existing speakers($1709), but in my listening environment(a bedroom), I might get better sound(than what I've got now)......or then again, I might not.
Or, I could hold onto the money, maybe accumulate some more, and see what developes in the product lines of the major manufacturers over the next year or two. Legacy was considering reintroducing some of the discontinued models from the middle part of their product line.....speakers that would have one 12" woofer per loudspeaker(the dual 12" woofers of Legacy Focus HD or the dual 15" woofers of Cerwin Vega's XLS-215 would be too overwhelming in my 14" x 14" space)

 

[PhilCohen]

There is something inherently wrong with that?


Right.
They would have told you the same thing years ago, had you called about the S312II.

The numbers (per JBL)
JBL S312II
Sensitivity, 2.83V/1m - 92db (Avg)
FR (-3db) ....... 35Hz – 20kHz
Dimensions: 14.7 W x 12.5 D x 41 H inches

JBL L890
Sensitivity, 2.83V/1m - 91db (Avg)
FR (-3db) ........ 28Hz – 40kHz
Dimensions: 10.25 W x 15 D x 42.25 H inches

Basically, the L890 is the S312 turned sideways. I've already given you the difference in Sd (cone area), though not swept volume, which requires linear travel (Xmax). Your argument is based on emotion, not logic.
If you absolutely must have a 12" woofer (and correspondingly wide cabinet) for S312 type prices, to avoid a "downgrade", then your self imposed options are limited.
You might give the CV CLS-12 an objective (if possible) look. It is well designed and might surprise you SQ wise.
Or not .

cheers,

AJ

No, I'm not expecting S312 type prices. My four S312II's, S-Center & S120PII subwoofer were bought(at a 50% discount) for $1709 total.(I use full sized speakers in the rear in my 5.1 system). I could spend $6000 to perhaps $9000 next time.

 

[TLS Guy]

No, I'm not expecting S312 type prices. My four S312II's, S-Center & S120PII subwoofer were bought(at a 50% discount) for $1709 total.(I use full sized speakers in the rear in my 5.1 system). I could spend $6000 to perhaps $9000 next time.

If you want a good three way, in those price ranges, then this speaker with a 10" in a reasonably sized enclosure, not only sounds excellent but has an F3 of 29 Hz. If you are going to play rock music at high spl. I would recommend ordering the speakers with a dome tweeter rather than the ribbon, otherwise you might fatigue the ribbon. Depending on finish, prices start around 4 kHz for the pair. You won't go wrong.

These speakers would be an enormous upgrade to what you have now.

 

[PhilCohen]

As an update to the JBL situation, after 2 years of stalling, JBL is marketing their "LS" series loudspeakers in the U.S.A., albeit only through the dealers for the made for millionaires "Synthesis" speakers. While the LS speakers aren't outrageously priced, the limited availability isn't going to help sales. And for speakers of this(general) type, Klipsch's "RF" series provides something similar at a somewhat lower price, and with widespread availability(including internet dealers)

 

[highfigh]

HK is HK, not the umbrella under which all of the other companies live. That's Harmon International. JBL is JBL and other than maybe Tannoy, which JBL owned for a long time, the others are separate companies, with their own design/marketing/management. The various brands aren't just departments in a corporation. They keep it this way so that all of the accounting can be separate or so one brand can be eliminated/sold off, if desired. It also allows the corporation to have several specialty companies, which can fill more niches in the various markets.