S

Serithin

Junior Audioholic
Kodi would then use whatever sound drivers are present on the HTPC.
So your sound quality is determined by those.

Of course, I don't know the sound capabilities of your HTPC.
Look at the audio driver selection pane in "System" and make sure Kodi is using those drivers though...it might not by default, and Kodis internal drivers sound terrible.
This is why I don't use Kodi on my Dune player, it cant use the Dunes audio drivers. I use Kodi on a Vero4K+ for my audio files, fed by a 4tb hard drive.

Then the question would be are those drivers (your HTPC sound capabilities) good ones ?

I set kodi to pass the audio signal through digitally via hdmi and let the AVR's DAC convert it. (its lossless) When I send the same signal to my TV I hear nothing. The hdmi is hooked up via Intel audio/marantz AVR and it sounds amazing. Better then my PS4 blue ray player. I don't let Kodi use its own software dac or windows drivers. "If you want kodi/Windows to convert the audio then you want passthrough off. You want kodi sound on default direct sound. Direct sound uses Windows audio drivers, wasapi is used for pass through". I use wasapi/MarantzAVR. DTS-HD Master Audio is classified as a lossless audio format and I make sure I get that as much as possible. I have a much better understanding of my systems weaknesses now and I'm happy with the results that I came to. Thanks for the help :)
 
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isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
I set kodi to pass the audio signal through digitally via hdmi and let the AVR's DAC convert it. (its lossless) When I send the same signal to my TV I hear nothing. The hdmi is hooked up via Intel audio/marantz AVR and it sounds amazing. Better then my PS4 blue ray player. I don't let Kodi use its own software dac or windows drivers. "If you want kodi/Windows to convert the audio then you want passthrough off. You want kodi sound on default direct sound. Direct sound uses Windows audio drivers, wasapi is used for pass through". I use wasapi/MarantzAVR. DTS-HD Master Audio is classified as a lossless audio format and I make sure I get that as much as possible. I have a much better understanding of my systems weaknesses now and I'm happy with the results that I came to. Thanks for the help :) P.S. You do not want to see PCM on your AVR.
Glad to hear you are happier.
Another thing to keep in mind is the basic sound quality of a lot of classic rock and older recordings is that they really don't sound very good to begin with, especially in the bass area.
This has come up many times here on Audioholics.

Many times I will play some older stuff and wonder where my subs went (and I have tons of good bass). I'm not afraid to take those files into Foobar and re-eq them for more bottom end (keeping the originals also)....gotta love Foobar !

Nice discussion over on ASR concerning Windows drivers if you feel like getting a headache. :)

 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Glad to hear you are happier.
Another thing to keep in mind is the basic sound quality of a lot of classic rock and older recordings is that they really don't sound very good to begin with, especially in the bass area.
This has come up many times here on Audioholics.

Many times I will play some older stuff and wonder where my subs went (and I have tons of good bass). I'm not afraid to take those files into Foobar and re-eq them for more bottom end (keeping the originals also)....gotta love Foobar !
One very good reason for easily accessible tone controls.
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
One very good reason for easily accessible tone controls.
Sure is.
I'm glad my Pioneer has bass and treble right on the remote.....and best of all, a sub level button.
I generally never touch the bass and treble, but the sub adjuster comes in real handy with that old stuff.

My subs are set to minus 15, but say when I put on some 70's or 80's Bowie I can bump that to minus 10 with good results.
My belief is that those old recordings had the bass neutered to fit more length per vinyl lp side.
"Bass takes space" even on a record groove. :)
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
My belief is that those old recordings had the bass neutered to fit more length per vinyl lp side.
"Bass takes space" even on a record groove. :)
That's correct. Any deeper bass in recordings meant for vinyl records was deliberately rolled-off below ~50 Hz for that very reason. Louder deep bass on the vinyl record could cause the needle to jump out of the groove. This was built in to RIAA equalization, and all stereo gear before the '90s had built-in RIAA de-equlization to use during vinyl playback.

All older stereo gear from the vinyl days also had loudness compensation buttons to add more bass, and treble. The amount of boost you got depended on how loud to wanted to listen, the type of music you played, as well as your speakers.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
I set kodi to pass the audio signal through digitally via hdmi and let the AVR's DAC convert it. (its lossless) When I send the same signal to my TV I hear nothing. The hdmi is hooked up via Intel audio/marantz AVR and it sounds amazing. Better then my PS4 blue ray player. I don't let Kodi use its own software dac or windows drivers. "If you want kodi/Windows to convert the audio then you want passthrough off. You want kodi sound on default direct sound. Direct sound uses Windows audio drivers, wasapi is used for pass through". I use wasapi/MarantzAVR. DTS-HD Master Audio is classified as a lossless audio format and I make sure I get that as much as possible. I have a much better understanding of my systems weaknesses now and I'm happy with the results that I came to. Thanks for the help :)
Curious, what is the TV in use here? If it does not support eARC, any lossless multichannel signal being sent to it from a directly connected device will not be sent over ARC to the receiver as a result of the ARC bandwidth limitation.

Depending on the source device capabilities concerning decoding and the speaker configuration, it can be advantageous to decode multichannel signals at the source. This is especially true concerning Dolby signals as the Dolby offset means PCM and DTS will seem to come in hot in comparison to it.

The Marantz SR7013, like some other Denon/Marantz models, in special in that it has the 2ch Playback and A/B speaker features. This works well for those that want different settings for different signals and for those that added smaller speakers all around with a sub for a surround experience after running their favorite tower speakers in a 2.0 setup for a long time and still wanting to use them.

So, when playing two channel signals, one can decide how they are played through the Marantz SR7013 using the same or different Front speakers. So, let's say one has their dream Full Band speakers for two channel music and don't really want to mix them in with a new 5.1, 7.1 or more speaker combo. They can set the Marantz to playback two channel signals to the B speakers in Direct or Stereo mode with settings separate from those playing two channel signals to the A speakers using an up mixer such as Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X.

Adding old and new media, audio and video devices and speakers with a newer AVP/AVR is no easy task. There are so many variables. Best to start off with a pair of speakers you already like and then deal with the rest of it accordingly.

In this use case, I do not believe an external amp will improve anything. I'd experiment with other adjustments. You will never be disappointed in DTS HD MA loudness, just don't play "Tenet" too loudly or you will be shopping for ALL new speakers.

I would expermiment with it. The SR7013 supports DTS Virtual:X so that the existing speakers are used to simulate height effects without height speakers. DTS Neural:X expands signals into height speakers when they are in use. The SR7013 does not support Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization. So, without a 5.1.2 or more speaker configuration, Atmos metadata from bitstreams is lost and only the core channels are decoded and then processed into the 5.1 speakers of this particular setup. Use a device that supports Dolby MAT 2.0, and the Dolby Atmos track is converted to a multichannel PCM signal BUT retains Atmos metadata and it will still be displayed as the incoming signal on the receiving end. The SR7013 just won't be able to simulate height speakers with Dolby Atmos metadata or the Dolby Surround up mixer.

With Dolby Atmos metadata off the table here, I would decode Dolby signals into multichannel PCM at the source when possible to avoid Dolby offset. The Marantz will use your chosen up mixer to process what it will see as simply another multichannel PCM signal. You might prefer it to decoding a Dolby signal and everything that comes with it.

Unfortunately, when playing a DTS:X track, there is no way to output it as multichannel PCM from the source and keep the object based metadata and it will be lost. So, those are best left as bitstream and DTS Virtual:X can work some magic on them.

That is a nice setup. Have fun tweaking it. Do not expect room correction of any kind to work miracles on a difficult room layout and don't feel locked into crossovers and levels set by them. You will not be listening to signals using a mic like AVR/AVPs do when setting levels. You will be using your own ears. Tweak it manually until you achieve the desired sound in your own ears from your main listening position and enjoy.

Oh, and as far as tweaking something until it looks and sounds they way you like it, I can't think of a movie with which I have experimented more than "The Greatest Showman." It comes with a DTS HD MA 7.1 track on blu-ray(1080p @24Hz SDR) and a Dolby Atmos track on the 4K/UHD blu-ray(4K @24Hz HDR10). After watching and listening to it in different ways, my preferred experience on my setup is to watch the 4K disc, not with its Dolby Atmos track, but with its DTS HD MA 2.0 track. The Atmos track on the 4K disc is meh. The picture on the Blu-ray disc is meh. I have the Sony UBP-X800M2 player output the $K disc in Dolby Vision instead of HDR10, color looks a bit better this way, and play the DTS HD MA 2.0 track using the DTS Virtual:X up mixer in my receiver. The DTS up mixer is great with DTS signals. You'd never know it wasn't a multichannel track. I prefer it to the 7.1 track as dialogue isn't quite as isolated and in your face. The DTS up mixer gets everything out to all of the channels nicely. Results will vary of course.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
Not much room to rearrange speakers. They sound really good when in 3.2 mode. (although I wish they were warmer). What I want to achieve is #1 more dynamic sound. Less flat. And like I said when I turn on my wall surround sound speakers its even more flat sounding. My seating is good and I found that (sweet spot) in the middle of my couch. My speakers are 200w max. For music the speakers are too bright and harsh. EQ fixes this by pulling down the 2-3khz range. It has decent imaging. Yes it is carpeted. I'm about to test some things with 8 large acoustic panels. I also heard to stay away from Emotiva but some people say its good. It does seem to be cheap gear though. Il post the results of the panels. Thanks abunch
I don’t understand it those speakers should easily get loud enough with your avr . Are they set on full range or something?
 
S

Serithin

Junior Audioholic
I don’t understand it those speakers should easily get loud enough with your avr . Are they set on full range or something?
Loudness was never the issue. This issue has been resolved. The only time they are set to Full range is when the subs are disabled.
 
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S

Serithin

Junior Audioholic
Curious, what is the TV in use here? If it does not support eARC, any lossless multichannel signal being sent to it from a directly connected device will not be sent over ARC to the receiver as a result of the ARC bandwidth limitation.

Depending on the source device capabilities concerning decoding and the speaker configuration, it can be advantageous to decode multichannel signals at the source. This is especially true concerning Dolby signals as the Dolby offset means PCM and DTS will seem to come in hot in comparison to it.

The Marantz SR7013, like some other Denon/Marantz models, in special in that it has the 2ch Playback and A/B speaker features. This works well for those that want different settings for different signals and for those that added smaller speakers all around with a sub for a surround experience after running their favorite tower speakers in a 2.0 setup for a long time and still wanting to use them.

So, when playing two channel signals, one can decide how they are played through the Marantz SR7013 using the same or different Front speakers. So, let's say one has their dream Full Band speakers for two channel music and don't really want to mix them in with a new 5.1, 7.1 or more speaker combo. They can set the Marantz to playback two channel signals to the B speakers in Direct or Stereo mode with settings separate from those playing two channel signals to the A speakers using an up mixer such as Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X.

Adding old and new media, audio and video devices and speakers with a newer AVP/AVR is no easy task. There are so many variables. Best to start off with a pair of speakers you already like and then deal with the rest of it accordingly.

In this use case, I do not believe an external amp will improve anything. I'd experiment with other adjustments. You will never be disappointed in DTS HD MA loudness, just don't play "Tenet" too loudly or you will be shopping for ALL new speakers.

I would expermiment with it. The SR7013 supports DTS Virtual:X so that the existing speakers are used to simulate height effects without height speakers. DTS Neural:X expands signals into height speakers when they are in use. The SR7013 does not support Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization. So, without a 5.1.2 or more speaker configuration, Atmos metadata from bitstreams is lost and only the core channels are decoded and then processed into the 5.1 speakers of this particular setup. Use a device that supports Dolby MAT 2.0, and the Dolby Atmos track is converted to a multichannel PCM signal BUT retains Atmos metadata and it will still be displayed as the incoming signal on the receiving end. The SR7013 just won't be able to simulate height speakers with Dolby Atmos metadata or the Dolby Surround up mixer.

With Dolby Atmos metadata off the table here, I would decode Dolby signals into multichannel PCM at the source when possible to avoid Dolby offset. The Marantz will use your chosen up mixer to process what it will see as simply another multichannel PCM signal. You might prefer it to decoding a Dolby signal and everything that comes with it.

Unfortunately, when playing a DTS:X track, there is no way to output it as multichannel PCM from the source and keep the object based metadata and it will be lost. So, those are best left as bitstream and DTS Virtual:X can work some magic on them.

That is a nice setup. Have fun tweaking it. Do not expect room correction of any kind to work miracles on a difficult room layout and don't feel locked into crossovers and levels set by them. You will not be listening to signals using a mic like AVR/AVPs do when setting levels. You will be using your own ears. Tweak it manually until you achieve the desired sound in your own ears from your main listening position and enjoy.

Oh, and as far as tweaking something until it looks and sounds they way you like it, I can't think of a movie with which I have experimented more than "The Greatest Showman." It comes with a DTS HD MA 7.1 track on blu-ray(1080p @24Hz SDR) and a Dolby Atmos track on the 4K/UHD blu-ray(4K @24Hz HDR10). After watching and listening to it in different ways, my preferred experience on my setup is to watch the 4K disc, not with its Dolby Atmos track, but with its DTS HD MA 2.0 track. The Atmos track on the 4K disc is meh. The picture on the Blu-ray disc is meh. I have the Sony UBP-X800M2 player output the $K disc in Dolby Vision instead of HDR10, color looks a bit better this way, and play the DTS HD MA 2.0 track using the DTS Virtual:X up mixer in my receiver. The DTS up mixer is great with DTS signals. You'd never know it wasn't a multichannel track. I prefer it to the 7.1 track as dialogue isn't quite as isolated and in your face. The DTS up mixer gets everything out to all of the channels nicely. Results will vary of course.

No audio is being sent to the TV. That was just to illustrate that my signal is being converted by the AVR. Not the HTPC dac or drivers. Sending any lossless signal to the TV would be unfruitful :p I have experimented with other adjustments. In my case having the AVR's DAC decode the DTS/DD signal is producing the best results. It also gives me more flexibility regarding the different sound modes within the AVR.
 
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T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
Some have upgraded older TVs to 4K models while continuing to use an older AVR. Some have upgraded AVP/AVRs and continue to use older TVs. If ARC is the bottleneck in either case, lossless multichannel signals will not be passed along from a device connected directly to a TV. It's more of an issue with those using new game consoles or PCs that support 4K @120Hz and uncompressed multichannel PCM signals. Things will go south if connecting directly to a new TV and trying to use ARC with an older AVP/AVR. Some new Smart TVs are quite capable and can re encode signals to fit over ARC but sync issues are common when doing so.
 
S

Serithin

Junior Audioholic
I would never ever send any audio to a tv. Unless for testing purposes. I understand the reasons to have ARC but its not for me. Everything goes directly to the AVR and I have no reason to send audio from my tv to my AVR. I don't use smart tv capabilities.
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
In my case having the AVR's DAC decode the DTS/DD signal is producing the best results. It also gives me more flexibility regarding the different sound modes within the AVR.
That's what I would guess 99.9 percent of us do here...
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
I think most asked would say they prefer bitstream. But, in this streaming age, Dolby Atmos is not available when using certain devices unless it decodes and outputs signals in multichannel PCM and increases the needed bandwidth available over HDMI.
 
S

Serithin

Junior Audioholic
An amp would help get me the stereo sound that I wanted but its only half of the solution. The other half lays with the Processor itself. In my case the AVR DAC. To get what I was looking for I would need a possessor more capable. The Marantz is very good at what it is catered for, Cinema. So I would agree with most here, an amp would not be a magic bullet. I did watch Infinity Wars in DTS MA last night and whooow it was so good. For what I was looking for I would have had to spend twice as much at least and right now its just not worth it to me. In a few years im going to step up to separates that includes a Processor that does not include integrated amplification. There is a reason that separate processors (un amplified) cost so much. I use to think, why are integrated amps cheaper when they have amplification built in? lol
 
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S

Serithin

Junior Audioholic
Even the Emotiva RMC-1 processor is a step up in sound quality and it has no integrated amplification that costs 3,750$ and that's considered entry level... So in the end its not just 1 thing that's missing. Good news is that the Marantz is (good enough) for now :)
 
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isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
I think most asked would say they prefer bitstream. But, in this streaming age, Dolby Atmos is not available when using certain devices unless it decodes and outputs signals in multichannel PCM and increases the needed bandwidth available over HDMI.
Streaming ? Is that like Kayaking ? :)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Even the Emotiva RMC-1 processor is a step up in sound quality and it has no integrated amplification that costs 3,750$ and that's considered entry level... So in the end its not just 1 thing that's missing. Good news is that its (good enough) for now :)
How is it a step up in sound quality?
 
S

Serithin

Junior Audioholic
How is it a step up in sound quality?

Because the dac is better quality. That makes the sound better. As well as some other internals. That is why it cost more even though it has no internal amplification while the cheaper AVR does.
 

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