What was the seminal event that caused America's fall from greatness?

[Mr._Clark]

Here's my answer: America didn't fall from greatness, but other countries have gained relative to the United States.

 

[Alex2507]

When it chose actors and reality TV stars over statesmen and diplomats.

 

[Old Onkyo]

There are two other question that were omitted.

so if your neighbor gets a pay raise, that injures you how...

 

[Old Onkyo]

Here's my answer: America didn't fall from greatness, but other countries have gained relative to the United States.

So if America hasn’t fallen from greatness, what is trying to be restored?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Uniquely, Americans obsess about “greatness”, however that is defined, and being #1, whatever that is. This obsession and paranoia, along with an economic system that promotes and allows individual success, will probably keep us in a leadership position for as long as these factors survive. Without the threat of being surpassed or having their butts kicked people and countries get soft and complacent. The US has had its butt kicked multiple times. I’m not sure we’ve had a good enough kicking from China to really wake our lazy and greedy asses up yet.

 

[SwirlingMist]

We compromised on education.

 

[Speedskater]

More like a very slow slide down a long slippery slope. It started with Barry Goldwater. Or rather the people he attracted.

 

[Swerd]

What greatness is can be debated. However, it is clear that America was economically dominant for about 25 years following WW2, from 1945 through the 1970s. All the other powerful economies were destroyed as result of the war, while America's economy had grown & thrived because of that same war. The other countries slowly recovered, closing the gap with the USA. What hurt the worst was:

• Failure to promote education (as pointed out by @SwirlingMist)
• Sending most manufacturing overseas to China and other places in Asia, beginning in the 1980s. This was not just a passive process where foreign competition was less expensive. It was actively pursued by American business. Moving manufacturing overseas may have made sense short-term, but long-term it has led to large scale closing of manufacturing in the USA, replacing it with little or nothing.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Sending most manufacturing overseas to China and other places in Asia, beginning in the 1980s. This was not just a passive process where foreign competition was less expensive. It was actively pursued by American business. Moving manufacturing overseas may have made sense short-term, but long-term it has led to large scale closing of manufacturing in the USA, replacing it with little or nothing.

Like it or not, manufacturing overseas is often dramatically less expensive than building and operating an identical facility in the US. I remember several years ago a CEO of Intel saying that building what was then a $6B chip fab in the US would cost $1B less in east Asia. Highly trained people (like those who work in fabs) earn a half or a third of what US employees would make. Taxes are lower. Fewer environmental restrictions and requirements. These are the same reasons why there aren't any very many fabs in Europe either. Or California.

Just moving labor-intensive manufacturing to Mexico can save a lot, and the automakers do it all the time. But even Mexico is too expensive for electronics, consumer product assembly (e.g. phones), and drug manufacturing. You have to provide deep subsidies (like states and localities do for chip fabs), have the government fund production of strategic products (I suspect this is coming for semiconductors and drugs), or raise tariffs so high that US manufacturing becomes the only viable option. An example of the latter is the 25% tariff on imported pickup trucks and SUVs. Of course NAFTA and now USMCA allows these vehicles to be built in Mexico and imported with no tariff, but you get the idea.

If we want manufacturing in the US we have to pay. It's simple economics. I'm a supporter of this strategy, but it'll be interesting to see how the US public reacts. I suspect even the segment of workers most likely to benefit from manufacturing jobs may not like the much higher prices that result.

 

[Mikado463]

all good points gents, but I'm not moving anytime soon .............

 

[lovinthehd]

Television perhaps? I tend to think of it as a variety of events, tho. Some already mentioned.

 

[panteragstk]

If I were to say the US has "fallen from greatness" it would be because too many people in this country think we're the greatest at everything and don't need to improve. That's just not a correct statement. I don't care what it is, anything from cars to healthcare can be better.

People can be better. We can help each other be better, but too many have the "me and mine are all that matter" mentality and that's not going to get us anywhere. We need to care more about everyone else in this country. That will help to make a lot of things better.

We also need to hold the people in government and businesses accountable. They screw up, they get fired. Simple. They need to stop getting to take advantage of people and be held accountable when they do something wrong. None of this "the fine is cheaper to pay than to follow the rules" nonsense. You don't follow the rules, you close your business until you can.

Anti-trust needs to be enforced again. Having fewer choices stifles competition and innovation. We need more choices so companies have to compete for our business. I know there are still many, many different types of businesses that are still like that, but too many BIG ones that aren't. Comcast putting in bandwidth caps just to charge people more? Nope, but wait. You don't have another choice so good luck. That sort of thing shouldn't fly with people, but because of how rigged so many of our systems are, we don't.

I could go on and on, but I already incoherently ranted enough.

 

[GO-NAD!]

If I were to say the US has "fallen from greatness" it would be because too many people in this country think we're the greatest at everything and don't need to improve. That's just not a correct statement. I don't care what it is, anything from cars to healthcare can be better.

People can be better. We can help each other be better, but too many have the "me and mine are all that matter" mentality and that's not going to get us anywhere. We need to care more about everyone else in this country. That will help to make a lot of things better.

We also need to hold the people in government and businesses accountable. They screw up, they get fired. Simple. They need to stop getting to take advantage of people and be held accountable when they do something wrong. None of this "the fine is cheaper to pay than to follow the rules" nonsense. You don't follow the rules, you close your business until you can.

Anti-trust needs to be enforced again. Having fewer choices stifles competition and innovation. We need more choices so companies have to compete for our business. I know there are still many, many different types of businesses that are still like that, but too many BIG ones that aren't. Comcast putting in bandwidth caps just to charge people more? Nope, but wait. You don't have another choice so good luck. That sort of thing shouldn't fly with people, but because of how rigged so many of our systems are, we don't.

I could go on and on, but I already incoherently ranted enough.

Your post reminded me of a piece I read just yesterday. You may find it interesting: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/12/01/democrats-rural-vote-wisconsin-441458

Rural voters appreciated Obama’s repeated campaign promises to challenge the rise of agribusiness monopolies. But as president, he allowed for the continued consolidation of corporate power in the food system. His Department of Agriculture balked when it came time to enforce anti-monopoly rules such as those in the Packers and Stockyard Act, and failed to enforce Country of Origin Labeling, which would have allowed independent farmers and ranchers to better compete within the consolidated meat industry. The Obama Justice Department and Federal Trade Commission presided over a series of corporate mergers in the food and agriculture sectors, including the Kraft-Heinz and JBS-Cargill mergers. Taken together, these moves signaled that his administration did not have the backs of family farmers.

and

For Democrats to start telling a story that resonates, they need to show a willingness to fight for rural people, and not just by proposing a “rural plan” or showing up on a farm for a photo op. Rural people understand economic power and the grip it has on lawmakers. We know reform won’t be easy. A big step forward for Democrats would be to champion antitrust enforcement and challenge the anticompetitive practices of the gigantic agribusiness firms that squeeze our communities. In his rural plan, Biden pledged to “strengthen antitrust enforcement,” but the term doesn’t appear until the 35th bullet point. For rural voters, antitrust enforcement is a top priority, and it should be coupled with policies to manage oversupply in commodity markets, so farmers can get a fair price. Another step forward would be an ambitious federal plan, in the spirit of the New Deal’s Rural Electrification Act, to bring high-speed internet to every corner of America.

As for any perceived "fall from greatness", The USA is still the preeminent world power today - culturally, economically and militarily. Sure, it isn't the dominance we saw during the post-WW2 period, but that was an aberration. If it wasn't for the rolling of the dice on economic engagement with China, this wouldn't even be a question, I believe. They would still be a poor nuclear-armed backwater.

 

[TankTop5]

When it chose actors and reality TV stars over statesmen and diplomats.

If you’re referring to Reagan I think you bumped your head.

 

[eljr]

What was the seminal event that caused America's fall from greatness?
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/what-was-the-seminal-event-that-caused-americas-fall-from-greatness.120099/#

It was TRump. His election and behaviors. His insistence that we fallen along with his lies and ignorant policies became self fulfilling prophecy.

I thought this was common knowledge, I am surprised to see debate about this.

 

[eljr]

I just read the replies, I am shocked. Trump's rhetoric "Make America Great Again" clearly has become accepted as fact, that it was broken.
It wasn't. he just started saying it was to make himself savior when in truth the opposite was occurring.

What a terrible time and place in American history.

 

[slipperybidness]

What greatness is can be debated. However, it is clear that America was economically dominant for about 25 years following WW2, from 1945 through the 1970s. All the other powerful economies were destroyed as result of the war, while America's economy had grown & thrived because of that same war. The other countries slowly recovered, closing the gap with the USA. What hurt the worst was:

• Failure to promote education (as pointed out by @SwirlingMist)
• Sending most manufacturing overseas to China and other places in Asia, beginning in the 1980s. This was not just a passive process where foreign competition was less expensive. It was actively pursued by American business. Moving manufacturing overseas may have made sense short-term, but long-term it has led to large scale closing of manufacturing in the USA, replacing it with little or nothing.

I agree 100%, sending the mfg overseas was the beginning of the end. Our broken education system and reliance on passing standardized testing is a large contributor.

Heck, I can't even find skilled labor to fill open positions!

 

[slipperybidness]

Like it or not, manufacturing overseas is often dramatically less expensive than building and operating an identical facility in the US. I remember several years ago a CEO of Intel saying that building what was then a $6B chip fab in the US would cost $1B less in east Asia. Highly trained people (like though who work in fabs) earn a half or a third of what US employees would make. Taxes are lower. Fewer environmental restrictions and requirements. These are the same reasons why there aren't any very many fabs in Europe either. Or California.

Just moving labor-intensive manufacturing to Mexico can save a lot, and the automakers do it all the time. But even Mexico is too expensive for electronics, consumer product assembly (e.g. phones), and drug manufacturing. You have to provide deep subsidies (like states and localities do for chip fabs), have the government fund production of strategic products (I suspect this is coming for semiconductors and drugs), or raise tariffs so high that US manufacturing becomes the only viable option. An example of the latter is the 25% tariff on imported pickup trucks and SUVs. Of course NAFTA and now USMCA allows these vehicles to be built in Mexico and imported with no tariff, but you get the idea.

If we want manufacturing in the US we have to pay. It's simple economics. I'm a supporter of this strategy, but it'll be interesting to see how the US public reacts. I suspect even the segment of workers most likely to benefit from manufacturing jobs may not like the much higher prices that result.

Agreed!

Chasing the bottom line $ at all costs is a real problem! Spend the $, employ the local people.

I put my $ where my mouth is just recently! I just bought a new set of wheels for my bike, manufactured in North Carolina. Yes, I paid a premium, but Made in the USA, from a company with a reputation for stellar products and customer support was worth the extra $ to me.

 

[GO-NAD!]

It was TRump. His election and behaviors. His insistence that we fallen along with his lies and ignorant policies became self fulfilling prophecy.

I thought this was common knowledge, I am surprised to see debate about this.

While Trump may have exacerbated the problems faced by the US, I consider him to be more symptom than cause.

 

[panteragstk]

I agree 100%, sending the mfg overseas was the beginning of the end. Our broken education system and reliance on passing standardized testing is a large contributor.

Heck, I can't even find skilled labor to fill open positions!

Education is really the main issue honestly.

If people were more educated (just better high school honestly) would help considerably. I say this because people would at least (hopefully) be aware of all the BS they're being fed. Such as "college education is the only way to get a good job". Nope. Skilled trades are a huge deal that are being forgotten. Your situation is sadly common. We need people with skills to do certain tasks that people without those skill simply cannot do. Can't learn to weld in a day.

The other side of education is that people would see the government not enforcing things (as @GO-NAD! ) pointed out with the article he linked. It wasn't just the current administration, it's plenty from the past as well.

A more educated population would also notice that the government doesn't seem to give a sh!t about the interests of the "common" man as they say. Big business? Sure, they're super important and the gov will do anything to make sure they're doing OK. Small business? Nope. Not a blip on the radar.

But the stock market is doing good so the economy is good right? I'm willing to bet that the majority of folks either don't own stock, or don't work for a publicly traded company. I don't. I have, plenty of them, and my main takeaway from working for those VERY large companies is that they're similar to the government. They care about the people in the top of management and the rest of us are expendable.

It all comes back to caring about the "regular" people that do all the grunt work for this country. Without them (us) the country can't run. Lucky for them they got a celebrity president that told everyone things were going to be great again...that didn't happen, but they're still behind him for some reason. I think that reason is that they don't have the education or critical thinking to watch his supporters or his administration being totally full of sh!t and not caring or noticing. The rest of us are sitting and watching this wondering how people don't see through all this obvious BS.

There are just so many facets to our life that could be so much better if EVERYONE were important.