What is the best AVR?

racquetman

racquetman

Audioholic Chief
The best you can do is someone with a pecuniary interest in maintaining audio mythology?

Sad.

John Curl has also written that expensive power cords sound better than cheap ones. At this point he's just a cheap has-been hack.
Yes, you've got me there. He hasn't accomplished near as much as you. I'm sure YOUR name is attached to many well respected products.

Nobody wrote that, nor is it relevant here.
That's the whole discussion, genius.

Yep, a worthless one. I note you didn't mention level matching, fast switching, blind listening, or anything else that would make your opinion worth a damn.
Spin that broken record. Congratulations, you've practiced that line so many times you can do it by memory now. I don't have to mention it because people like you have practiced it in the mirror so many times that you know it like the back of your hand.

A smarter person would not make judgments based on sighted, un-level matched "listening."
Boy, level matching is really tough. I surely couldn't have done that when comparing two products. You know what's even harder? Closing your eyes and having someone switch out two products for you. :rolleyes:

PS: certainly don't look here. You'll learn things about how people who actually know things set up multiple subwoofers that will blow both your and your "local A/V store owner"'s minds.
It has been so informative reading your tired regurgitations all day - not even the semblance of an original thought anywhere (a scene from Good Will Hunting comes to mind).

While I'm kicking back enjoying my wonderful home theater, it's comforting to know that you'll be pulling your hair out because of some imaginary "2 kHz notch" that you think is relevant (I would LOVE to put you in a room and watch you try to pick out that huge deficiency in a double-blind study) or that "hackish, kludgy manner in which current AVR's handle multisubs" (millions of home theater clients across the globe are praying a fix is coming).

Keep bloggin' and keep blowin' people's minds, dude. I'll cherish the memory of this day always . . .
 
M

mjcmt

Audioholic
To my mind, the "best" receiver is the one with the best room correction features that is adequate everywhere else. Since the best room correction available in a current-production AVR is Anthem's ARC (Audyssey imposes a "crappy speaker compensation" notch in the midrange, Trinnov is not available in a current production AVR, and the other systems are third tier at best), that leads pretty much inevitably for someone who's primary focus is sound quality to one of the Anthem MRX boxes.
I also like the Anthem AVRs better than most other AVRs for the reason you mention, but I like the higher powered versions. I also like the fact they don't include all the frivolous DSP sound effect theater modes that I would never use, plus they veil the sound.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
I'm interested to know what is the best very AVR on the market currently, without venturing into separate pre/pros and amps?
Spending a lot of money on an AVR, I don't know. I would still go pre/pro and amps. I would buy the best poweramp you can afford (that would be the one piece you can hold on to 20+ years) everything else you are going to replace over time anyway, no need to replace a good poweramp. Then a good pre-pro, I myself would'nt go too crazy on that one, it's not like you're going to have it forever. I know that doesn't answer you question, but $for$ I think it's the best way to go. Buy an expensive AVR now and in one year, if you decide to sell it you might not even get 30% of your money back.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Yes, you've got me there. He hasn't accomplished near as much as you. I'm sure YOUR name is attached to many well respected products.
So, your bottom line is that your "evidence" consists of appeal to authority. And your chosen authority is a cranky old hack who thinks that more expensive wires sound better than less expensive wires.

Pathetic.

That's the whole discussion, genius.
Again, please do not assume others have your low level of reading comprehension.

The scope of the discussion is not, as you erroneously claimed, "every single amplifier ever made in the history of the world."

Rather, it is amplifiers designed for high fidelity reproduction (flat FR, low output impedance, low noise) operating within their design specifications, and not broken.

If you wish it to be otherwise, you must point to a specific design flaw and show why it makes a sonic differences.

Boy, level matching is really tough. I surely couldn't have done that when comparing two products. You know what's even harder? Closing your eyes and having someone switch out two products for you. :rolleyes:
Actually, level-matching to a degree that one can be certain one is not merely reacting to level differences is rather involved. It requires matching output voltage at the speaker terminals.

Furthermore, anyone who was actually competent to opine on the "sound" of amplifiers (as opposed to the sound of level differences) would have to know that. That you don't, well, says all that needs to be said.

While I'm kicking back enjoying my wonderful home theater, it's comforting to know that you'll be pulling your hair out because of some imaginary "2 kHz notch" that you think is relevant
Wait a minute. If I am reading you correctly, you think you can hear "sonic differences" between competently designed and nonbroken amps operating within their designed limits, but not a fairly pronounced intentional dip in the frequency response smack dab in the midrange?

Please tell me where I'm misinterpreting your position. If I am not, your position is so incredulous as to make me wonder if you're an actual thinking being or just a disgruntled audio parts dealer trying to stir up trouble.

Ad for the rest of us, the room correction study by Dr. Sean Olive et al. showed that in a blind comparison the system with a 2Khz notch was the least preferred, less than no room correction, even on a crappy speaker with appalling midrange directivity control. (B&W N802 I believe.) None of the other systems were found to be worse than no EQ. All the others tested were either found to be better, or within the error tolerance. And that is because Audyssey's target curve is simply wrong for music. The solution is not an electronic kludge for crappily-designed speakers (see Prof. Kyriakakis' comments.), but to use speakers that have controlled midrange directivity to start with!

Now, I used to have two Audyssey boxes, when they were the only serious game in town at reasonable prices. (Also, their DynamicEQ is great software for loudness correction. Though IMO no better than the "volume modeler" part of Dolby Volume.)
While it was a headache, now I'm frankly I'm glad one of them died. Now I use more boxes with more sophisticated room correction systems, ARC and (though I literally just opened the box) Trinnov. And get better sound because of it in the former case. Hopefully once I'm done tweaking that will also be true in the latter case.

(I do still use Audyssey MultEQ XT in my daily driver, through a separate Alpine processor. It's a small and fairly loud 2-seat roadster, so an arguably superior processor such as the JBL MS-8 is overkill. Also, the crappy speakers compensation notch is defeatable on my Alpine PXE-H650...)

watch you try to pick out that huge deficiency in a double-blind study) or that "hackish, kludgy manner in which current AVR's handle multisubs" (millions of home theater clients across the globe are praying a fix is coming).
Most people have lower standards than I do when it comes to bass, that is true. Sad, but true, because getting it right isn't that expensive, and if there were a bigger market of people who actually cared about high fidelity it is a problem well-suited to an automated, measurement-based solution. The only serious product that has been introduced in this area was the JBL BassQ, and it was both very expensive for what it did, and quite limited in capability.
 
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racquetman

racquetman

Audioholic Chief
Here's why I engaged you, DS-21. There are uneducated people who come to this forum looking for advice and I'm terribly afraid some of them might listen to you. I have no doubt you believe everything that spews from your keyboard - you're so in love with yourself I picture you dwelling in a structure made entirely of reflective glass. However, please, for the sake of the easily-influenced casual reader, stop regurgitating every article you have ever read (ya I've read 'em too - not an impressive feat). Speaking of articles, your "mind-blowing" subwoofer article was about as complex as a game of tic-tac-toe compared to my normal reading material.

If you actually knew anything about the scientific process, your first advice to anyone would be, "Be skeptical." Thankfully people like Gene and Clint and the boys know this and the world is a better place because of their "pursuit of truth". They know that you actually have to go out and prove things over and over again, they're not just true because you want them to be. I'm sure they remain skeptical on other ideas as well that people pass off as facts on a daily basis.

Because they are not regurgitators like you, but have actually done the "leg work," I value their opinions (and facts) as researchers and truth seekers. Your opinion appears to be whatever you've read in the last 5 minutes. You are a sad Kool-Aid drinker. If we went back in time 2 weeks and I asked you about HDL cholesterol, you would call me an idiot for not knowing high HDL is vital to good heart health and then you would quote 3 different papers saying that very thing. Fast forward back to the present and, oh my god . . . "Good" HDL cholesterol may not protect heart after all, study suggests - HealthPop - CBS News. I'm sure you are already quoting this new article and denying you ever thought otherwise.

Respected articles from respected researchers published in respected journals are proven to be incorrect all the time. That's the point here. Hell, if there was any money to be made in it, there would be 20 articles tomorrow "proving" that pigs can fly. And people like you would swallow it hook, line, and sinker . . .
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
The best AVR is the one that's reliable, sounds great and is easy to setup and use with its feature set. Stay away from all the lower models in a manufacturer's line up if you can afford it as a lot of cost cutting when into them to make their prices as low as possible.
 
LAB3

LAB3

Senior Audioholic
The best AVR is the one that's reliable, sounds great and is easy to setup and use with its feature set. Stay away from all the lower models in a manufacturer's line up if you can afford it as a lot of cost cutting when into them to make their prices as low as possible.
Yep.. my picks were the Yamaha and Denon(my Brother has Denon) in the $1,399.00 to $2,000.00 price range. I have had really good service from my two Yamaha 7.1 AVR. My 2003 model 2400 7.1 would still be in HT room but I needed HDMI and HD so I stepped up in 2009. So far the 1900 has been a plug and play. I am sure there are many other brands too but these are the one's I have purchased so I can't comment on others.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
One of the problems I have with AVR's is the power ratings. I had a Denon AVR about 6 years ago (only for a short time, gave it way) and it was rated at 140 watts x 7 and it sounded like it didn't even put out maybe 50 watts x 7. Only decent one that I've ever listened to was a B&K AVR which is now defunct, that had a nice kick to it.
 
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D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Here's why I engaged you, DS-21. There are uneducated people who come to this forum looking for advice and I'm terribly afraid some of them might listen to you.
I assume, then, that you must work for an audio parts dealer, or some associated firm, because you seem actively threatened by facts and logic.

Speaking of articles, your "mind-blowing" subwoofer article was about as complex as a game of tic-tac-toe compared to my normal reading material.
That just says to me you didn't understand it. Given the reading comprehension levels you've shown on this thread, not exactly a surprise.

If you actually knew anything about the scientific process, your first advice to anyone would be, "Be skeptical."
In this context, that means "when someone says something about audio electronics that is entirely contradicted by every controlled listening test ever conducted, and do not present valid data from a controlled listening test of their own to support their extraordinary claim, they are safely ignored as simply not intellectually competent to discuss audio electronics."

If we went back in time 2 weeks and I asked you about HDL cholesterol, you would call me an idiot for not knowing high HDL is vital to good heart health and then you would quote 3 different papers saying that very thing. Fast forward back to the present and, oh my god . . . "Good" HDL cholesterol may not protect heart after all, study suggests - HealthPop - CBS News. I'm sure you are already quoting this new article and denying you ever thought otherwise.
Please show us all where I've ever expressed any opinion on any medical issue.

But to your general point, medical research is quite a bit more complex than audio. Audio electronics are in fact quite simple. When there is a difference, there is an obvious reason for it. The variables are quite well known: frequency response, certain forms of distortion, noise, relative level, and the like. The only people who rail against such things are people with a pecuniary interest in spreading voodoo and mythology. One such example is your cited John Curl.

Still, I'm perplexed by something. Since you seemed to ignore it the first time, I will repeat myself:

If I am reading you correctly, you think you can hear "sonic differences" between competently designed and nonbroken amps operating within their designed limits, but not a fairly pronounced intentional dip in the frequency response smack dab in the midrange? [Such a pronounced dip is imposed by Audyssey's target curve, and is not defeatable on Audyssey-equipped AVR's or pre-pros without buying their Pro license and buying/renting/borrowing their Pro calibration kit.]

Please tell me where I'm misinterpreting your position. If I am not, your position is so incredulous as to make me wonder if you're an actual thinking being or just a disgruntled audio parts dealer trying to stir up trouble.


And as for familiarity with the workings of different room correction systems, given your misplaced vitriol, I'm curious how much experience you actually have with the various room-correction hardware/software out there on AVR's. By comparison, I think this picture should give you an indication of the systems with which I'm familiar (except for Trinnov; I literally just picked up my Sherwood Newcastle R-972 and I've only scratched the surface of what it can do.)



Bottom row: Trinnov (Sherwood Newcastle R-972), Audyssey MultEQ XT home (Denon AVR-4308ci/A), Audyssey MultEQ XT car (Alpine PXE-H650)
Top row: ARC box (mike, stand, cables) (Anthem MRX 300)
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
. Do you think a receiver with A/B amplification sounds the same as one with D amplification?
Not including obviously poor/inadequate designs like Pioneer's icepower stuff, yes, class AB will sound the same as Class D. At least one poster in this thread certainly thinks his XLS2500 sounds the same as his ATI 3000 amp.

I don't feel like doing the research, but, off the top of my head, how about John Curl. Would you like to try and convince him that all amplifiers sound the same?
I would ask him to prove it with all biases removed, yes, with two half-decent amplifiers.
 
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LAB3

LAB3

Senior Audioholic
One of the problems I have with AVR's is the power ratings. I had a Denon AVR about 6 years ago (only for a short time, gave it way) and it was rated at 140 watts x 7 and it sounded like it didn't even put out maybe 50 watts x 7. Only decent one that I've ever listened to was a B&K AVR which is now defunct, that had a nice kick to it.
I agree, most are like this. One of the forums does a bench test on new AVR. I remeber when I purchased my old RX-V2400 Yamaha 7.1 AVR 120X7.
It only really bench tested 85 at 2 channel and about 48 with all 7 powered up.:(
My older Klipsch Heritage speakers do Not need a lot of power to shake my small den :) . I was going to purchase seperate amps and use the AVR as a Pre/Pro but my HT system is 5.2 with powered subs and I was Shocked how nice my Cornwalls and Heresy II as rears sounded. So I spent the money for amps on my motorcycle :D small den and the efficient old speakers saved me some serious money. My Son's Cerwin Vega AT-15 Needed bigger amps as I borrowed them for fronts when I was restoring the Cornwalls. I have moved the Heresy II to fronts in the bedroom and I now use Klipsch RS3-II to match the RC-62 center for HT. It just depends on the size and shape of the room and how much power your speakers really NEED.
 
racquetman

racquetman

Audioholic Chief
I assume, then, that you must work for an audio parts dealer, or some associated firm, because you seem actively threatened by facts and logic.
You were so close, but seeing as I'm actually a chemist, you're right, facts and logic are a real bummer.

That just says to me you didn't understand it. Given the reading comprehension levels you've shown on this thread, not exactly a surprise.
Yes, comprehension was extremely difficult.

Would you like to discuss the validity of 32S data when analyzing a 0.5 g / 100 g Rene N515 superalloy digestate by Quadrupole Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry in an HNO3/HCl/HF matrix? This subject is in fact quite simple if you understand metrology, superalloy chemistry, microwave digestion, lens voltage calibration, ion optics and mass tuning, isobaric, polyatomic, and matrix-specific interferences, sample introduction in an HF-containing matrix, and of course ICP-MS theory, ICP-MS hardware, ICP-MS software, and ICP-MS data interpretation and validation. You'll have to excuse me, but I probably missed a dozen or so things I just take for granted at this point.

By the way, the correct answer is always 0.5 ppm of sulfur in that alloy. Trust me ;)

I'll spare the rest of the forum members and visitors from having to read any more of this pointless drivel. I'm officially done with this thread. I made my point long ago.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
One of the problems I have with AVR's is the power ratings. I had a Denon AVR about 6 years ago (only for a short time, gave it way) and it was rated at 140 watts x 7 and it sounded like it didn't even put out maybe 50 watts x 7. Only decent one that I've ever listened to was a B&K AVR which is now defunct, that had a nice kick to it.
The way I look at power ratings on an AVR..If its strong enough to bring my speakers in an around 92-95db in volume full range without strain in my listening area, that will be plenty loud enough for me. Anything more is wasted power consumption.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
The way I look at power ratings on an AVR..If its strong enough to bring my speakers in an around 92-95db in volume full range without strain in my listening area, that will be plenty loud enough for me. Anything more is wasted power consumption.
I am just a power freak. Like to have it on hand if I need it or not.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You were so close, but seeing as I'm actually a chemist, you're right, facts and logic are a real bummer.



Yes, comprehension was extremely difficult.

Would you like to discuss the validity of 32S data when analyzing a 0.5 g / 100 g Rene N515 superalloy digestate by Quadrupole Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry in an HNO3/HCl/HF matrix? This subject is in fact quite simple if you understand metrology, superalloy chemistry, microwave digestion, lens voltage calibration, ion optics and mass tuning, isobaric, polyatomic, and matrix-specific interferences, sample introduction in an HF-containing matrix, and of course ICP-MS theory, ICP-MS hardware, ICP-MS software, and ICP-MS data interpretation and validation. You'll have to excuse me, but I probably missed a dozen or so things I just take for granted at this point.

By the way, the correct answer is always 0.5 ppm of sulfur in that alloy. Trust me ;)

I'll spare the rest of the forum members and visitors from having to read any more of this pointless drivel. I'm officially done with this thread. I made my point long ago.
Doh! :D

Well, I can see you know your chemistry being a chemist. And I know my drugs being a pharmacist. And if we were all sitting in the same room talking, we would all be quite nice about all this disagreement. I have an electrical engineer cousin who owns "$200K speakers" and some expensive tube amps in his 6,000 SF house. He would probably agree with you.

So some of us just disagree. That's fine. All part of the audiophile community.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
You were so close, but seeing as I'm actually a chemist, you're right, facts and logic are a real bummer.
Being a "chemist" does not, of course, correlate to any comprehension of the physics of bass propagation in a small room. Or anything else regarding sound reproduction, really.

But I bet the wire scammers would love you, because you probably know enough technical jargon about materials to make a helluva pseudoscientific ad campaign!


I'm officially done with this thread. I made my point long ago.
Indeed. Your non-reply to this inquiry:

me said:
If I am reading you correctly, you think you can hear "sonic differences" between competently designed and nonbroken amps operating within their designed limits, but not a fairly pronounced intentional dip in the frequency response smack dab in the midrange? [Such a pronounced dip is imposed by Audyssey's target curve, and is not defeatable on Audyssey-equipped AVR's or pre-pros without buying their Pro license and buying/renting/borrowing their Pro calibration kit.]

Please tell me where I'm misinterpreting your position. If I am not, your position is so incredulous as to make me wonder if you're an actual thinking being or just a disgruntled audio parts dealer trying to stir up trouble.
made all the point you seem capable of making.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Not that I would ever buy another AVR, but if you do get one, get one with a life expectancy of at least 1 year. Don't forget the extended warranty. Seems to me 2 out of 10 crap out after you plug them in. They just don't make them like they used to.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
And I know my drugs ... if we were all sitting in the same room ..., we would all be quite ..... I have a....cousin who owns "some expensive.... He would probably .... so some of us...
The way I look at ....If its strong enough .... strain ... that will be plenty ... enough for me.... more is wasted ....
I... Like to have it on hand if I need it or not.
For me, it is like ... got to have more even knowing for sure don't need more....
ellipses added for total context/meaning change.
 
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D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Not that I would ever buy another AVR, but if you do get one, get one with a life expectancy of at least 1 year. Don't forget the extended warranty. Seems to me 2 out of 10 crap out after you plug them in. They just don't make them like they used to.
That seems, sadly, to be closer to the truth than any of us (who don't work in a/v equipment sales, at least) would like it to be.
 
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