What is meant by “axis”?

[<eargiant]

Thanks that makes it clear as mud. Sounds like there’s more to it than I’m equipped for.

Isn’t there a easier way? I just want to hear good sound.

Yes, if possible get out there to all the high quality audio dealers in your area and try to audition as many speakers as possible in the listening position (distance, spacing, room size, etc.) that you will be most concerned with. No axis response has ever told me what sounds right to me. Especially when there are soooo many variables to audio measurements that are taken in open space. First hand experience trumps all else.

Personally, I only care what a speaker sounds like in the sweet spot. For me listening is an event and I'm right there center stage. That's where the critical listening happens. Usually, if I like the way a speaker sounds in the sweet spot I like the way it sounds as I roam around the room or house. I'm not to concerned if the off axis is less than textbook perfect or how it will sound to a guest standing off to the side during a get together (are they really even listening carefully?). We all have different goals.

Good luck in your search.

 

[shadyJ]

There are quite a few good sounding 2-way monitors that exhibit a similar polar response - with a suck-out near the crossover region off axis. If the speaker is designed to be listened to at close range, as is the case with many mini monitors, then it's not a problem at all. in a large room that speaker may not sound great but "veiled' is the wrong word IMO. Lacking in presence, perhaps, but not "veiled"unless there are problems with the design.

The only excuse for such a poor off-axis response is that you are dealing with a very low-budget speaker. No competently designed speaker should have that kind of response with the design tools that are available today, at least if they cost over $100/pair. While listening to speakers like this in the near-field might somewhat alleviate the problems evident here by having a greater ratio of direct sound to reflected sound at the listening position, near-field monitors do not get a pass for having an off-axis response this bad. I'm not saying that speakers with erratic off-axis responses will necessarily sound terrible, but modern loudspeaker design can do better than this.

 

[shadyJ]

Yes, if possible get out there to all the high quality audio dealers in your area and try to audition as many speakers as possible in the listening position (distance, spacing, room size, etc.) that you will be most concerned with. No axis response has ever told me what sounds right to me. Especially when there are soooo many variables to audio measurements that are taken in open space. First hand experience trumps all else.

Personally, I only care what a speaker sounds like in the sweet spot. For me listening is an event and I'm right there center stage. That's where the critical listening happens. Usually, if I like the way a speaker sounds in the sweet spot I like the way it sounds as I roam around the room or house. I'm not to concerned if the off axis is less than textbook perfect or how it will sound to a guest standing off to the side during a get together (are they really even listening carefully?). We all have different goals.

Good luck in your search.

The off-axis response has a lot to do with how the speaker sounds in the sweet spot, unless you are listening outdoors or in an anechoic chamber.

 

[Art Vandelay]

The only excuse for such a poor off-axis response is that you are dealing with a very low-budget speaker. No competently designed speaker should have that kind of response with the design tools that are available today, at least if they cost over $100/pair. While listening to speakers like this in the near-field might somewhat alleviate the problems evident here by having a greater ratio of direct sound to reflected sound at the listening position, near-field monitors do not get a pass for having an off-axis response this bad. I'm not saying that speakers with erratic off-axis responses will necessarily sound terrible, but modern loudspeaker design can do better than this.

All depends on what the designer had in mind. If the speaker is specifically designed for near-field studio monitoring then off-axis performance doesn't matter much. OTOH if it's designed to be a consumer product then it's a different story. The example you provided was a quite extreme one of course but usually a dip like that is the result of a high crossover point to the tweeter, where the mid-woofer becomes excessively directional. Such a design decision might be a smart one - if the speaker is designed for near field monitoring and uses a fragile pure ribbon tweeter.

Fwiw, a small (3-6dB) dip beyond 45 degrees off axis in the 2-4kHz region isn't necessarily a bad thing in my experience, because it can have the effect of slightly taming excessive EQ and processing that's used on on popular recordings these days, making them a bit more listenable.

Someone mentioned personal preference, and I agree that it's far from a black / white issue. I once visited the factory of a local speaker manufacturer and was invited to listen to the flagship speakers that were setup in the anechoic chamber for testing, and the SQ was amazing. There was no shortage of ambience either, on suitable recordings of course, and in fact I was able to hear much more of the recording venue acoustic than I was used to hearing.

 

[TechHDS]

Very good response. If a manufacturer doesn’t give a axis recommendation does that mean anything? Is on axis always “the best”and off as little as needed?

Just trying to learn. My education is in cars not audio.

Well, yes they do! when you buy a pair of speakers usually with the manual that comes with the speakers. They tell you to separate the speakers minimum of 6 feet plus they tell you to 'toe-in' your L/R main front speakers not the center channel speaker that one is subjective depends if its mounted below or above the TV 'axis'. +/-. But all things not being = with Audio design. I just read Genes test results and usually follow his recommendations dudes pretty good in my book. . But but since your education is in vehicle technology. Think front wheel alignment, without proper alignment of your front tires, your car would be very hard
to steer, front tires wouldn't last long if the engineer didn't design into the suspension and steering meaning if he was off on his math, with steering 'axis' 'inclination" or if the Tech wasn't a good Tech, and set the Caster and Camber wrong, on/off +/- axis, which (angles your steering (Axis+/-) inclination). You would be mad that your brand new front tires didn't last a month on your vehicle. Now apply that to a new pair of speakers you just got home you set-up your speaker's , one or both or off/on +/- Axis, and your home audio sounds like crap. You where expecting more of a wow factor.. Don't think Dampening Factor, That has nothing to do with on or off +/- Axis. At least I don't believe so.

Just my 2 bits

 

[sterling shoote]

When it comes to specs most speaker manufacturers are morons. They give incomplete and misleading specs, as a rule. There are precious few speaker manufacturers whose specs are even useful and can be trusted.

Can you give some examples of the few manufacturers you believe to be trustworthy and some of the most that are not trustworthy. I'd like to use your highly credentialed opinion, that's to say, what you profess, to direct me to the speaker manufacturers which are trustworthy, should I be in the market again for speakers.

 

[TechHDS]

The only excuse for such a poor off-axis response is that you are dealing with a very low-budget speaker. No competently designed speaker should have that kind of response with the design tools that are available today, at least if they cost over $100/pair. While listening to speakers like this in the near-field might somewhat alleviate the problems evident here by having a greater ratio of direct sound to reflected sound at the listening position, near-field monitors do not get a pass for having an off-axis response this bad. I'm not saying that speakers with erratic off-axis responses will necessarily sound terrible, but modern loudspeaker design can do better than this.

Pretty much spot-on man. Even a cheap pair with minimum design should sound decent when set up properly. Now back to my regular schedule program.

 

[TechHDS]

What is on axis and off axis of a speaker? What controls it? Is one better than the other? Is it measured both horizontal and vertical? Why do some speakers do some do better?

It's an imaginary line, but like most words with the English language, the word 'Axis' can and does have several meanings depending on what it's applied to or how it's used when applied with an application of terminology. You could say, that the 'Axis' of ' Power' when applyed to Audio has a meaning of design when applied to an audio speaker or an application of design to a amplifier, pre-amp to amp, or the 'Axis' of World War ll. Germany, Italy ,Japan, Where considered 'Axis' of power. Axis has a very brod meaning. You will get many interpretations of axis when applied to Audio. personally I wouldn't worry about it when applying to home audio leave that to the engineers in the Labs with the white coats. Just follow when setting up your home audio video system as recommended with the manuals that come with your Speakers and AVR. Follow the recommendations and you'll be okay with your set-up. Looking for tips on gear or help with setting up your gear? These Forums are a great place to find some answers on help with setting up or even buying gear just don't get caught up with the hype and there's lots of that all over the internet.

 

[shadyJ]

Can you give some examples of the few manufacturers you believe to be trustworthy and some of the most that are not trustworthy. I'd like to use your highly credentialed opinion, that's to say, what you profess, to direct me to the speaker manufacturers which are trustworthy, should I be in the market again for speakers.

A couple manufacturers who have good performance metrics that are not inflated specs: Revel and Genelec. There are others too.

 

[TechHDS]

A couple manufacturers who have good performance metrics that are not inflated specs: Revel and Genelec. There are others too.

Those two must be the best kept Secret in audio speaker industry.

 

[shadyJ]

Those two must be the best kept Secret in audio speaker industry.

No secrets, just sensible performance targets and good engineering toward those goals. Their performance has always been borne out by third party measurements to be very good.

 

[TechHDS]

No secrets, just sensible performance targets and good engineering toward those goals. Their performance has always been borne out by third party measurements to be very good.

True as that may be, gets Me to wondering why other speaker manufacturers don't spec that in their manuals that come with speakers when you buy them. They sure like bragging about other specs with slope drop off, impedance and ohms, sensitivity, and how pretty they will look in your living room. 1st order 2nd order crossover specs alone with the material used for the build and design of the speaker are usually printed. Axis, can be compensated for with placement, room treatments and so forth. Yes it is a spec that matters, but most of the speakers targeted at a specific Market of speaker buyers. Could care less or wouldn't know the difference between on off axis or 500 DF or 60 DF.

Just my 4 bits.

 

[shadyJ]

True as that may be, gets Me to wondering why other speaker manufacturers don't spec that in their manuals that come with speakers when you buy them. They sure like bragging about other specs with slope drop off, impedance and ohms, sensitivity, and how pretty they will look in your living room. 1st order 2nd order crossover specs alone with the material used for the build and design of the speaker are usually printed. Axis, can be compensated for with placement, room treatments and so forth. Yes it is a spec that matters, but most of the speakers targeted at a specific Market of speaker buyers. Could care less or wouldn't know the difference between on off axis or 500 DF or 60 DF.

Just my 4 bits.

All I can say is those who care about how accurate their audio system is should know and understand the off-axis behavior of their loudspeakers.

 

[TechHDS]

All I can say is those who care about how accurate their audio system is should know and understand the off-axis behavior of their loudspeakers.

You just took and applied one of the most important aspects of speaker design. Sure Your right can't disagree with your statement. Everything related in building and designing and applying the components, right down to the dude sketching out the speaker cabinet, braces, where the port is located, or even a sealed speaker box would inherently be more accurate than a speaker that's ported or even a speaker with a radiator designed into it. I get that big Dan. So you have a very accurate flat ruled speaker, stick them in a room cluttered with junk, no room treatments poor choice on the electronics and source and guess what? It will sound like crap, maybe even more so. Just not as crappy as my speaker's do at above reference levels.. Now where to find a pair of very accurate well built designed speakers that I won't have to mortgage my house for.

 

[shadyJ]

You just took and applied one of the most important aspects of speaker design. Sure Your right can't disagree with your statement. Everything related in building and designing and applying the components, right down to the dude sketching out the speaker cabinet, braces, where the port is located, or even a sealed speaker box would inherently be more accurate than a speaker that's ported or even a speaker with a radiator designed into it. I get that big Dan. So you have a very accurate flat ruled speaker, stick them in a room cluttered with junk, no room treatments poor choice on the electronics and source and guess what? It will sound like crap, maybe even more so. Just not as crappy as my speaker's do at above reference levels.. Now where to find a pair of very accurate well built designed speakers that I won't have to mortgage my house for.

Clutter isn't actually bad for the sound, depending on how much of it there is and where it is placed. For example, rows of books in a bookshelf can act as diffusors. Clutter can act as absorbors as well. I'm not saying you should go and clutter your room up, however. What is not good for the sound is bare hard surfaces which make for long reverberation decays. The further away you can get from that, the better, and clutter can actually help reduce ringing and reverberation.

As for accurate loudspeakers, they don't have to cost a fortune. Revel has the Concerto2 which are farily linear and are only 800 a pair. For absolutely superb linearity, get the JBL LSR6332, they are about $1,500 each, expensive, yes, but still affordable. Genelec has a wide range of monitors, all of which are very accurate, and range in price from like $800 to a few thousand each. Hell, the Behringer Truth Monitors have a pretty flat response both on and off axis and I scored a pair for $130!

 

[TechHDS]

Clutter isn't actually bad for the sound, depending on how much of it there is and where it is placed. For example, rows of books in a bookshelf can act as diffusors. Clutter can act as absorbors as well. I'm not saying you should go and clutter your room up, however. What is not good for the sound is bare hard surfaces which make for long reverberation decays. The further away you can get from that, the better, and clutter can actually help reduce ringing and reverberation.

As for accurate loudspeakers, they don't have to cost a fortune. Revel has the Concerto2 which are farily linear and are only 800 a pair. For absolutely superb linearity, get the JBL LSR6332, they are about $1,500 each, expensive, yes, but still affordable. Genelec has a wide range of monitors, all of which are very accurate, and range in price from like $800 to a few thousand each. Hell, the Behringer Truth Monitors have a pretty flat response both on and off axis and I scored a pair for $130!

@shadyJ, I've done a little research on Rebels Concerto F36, nice!, yep they do post on Axis spec I be dang, Want would be your thoughts on the Revel F36, Martin Logan 40s and Polks LSi-M705s. What about customer service after the sale with Martin Logan and Revel.

 

[shadyJ]

@shadyJ, I've done a little research on Rebels Concerto F36, nice!, yep they do post on Axis spec I be dang, Want would be your thoughts on the Revel F36, Martin Logan 40s and Polks LSi-M705s. What about customer service after the sale with Martin Logan and Revel.

I don't know about the ML Motion speakers. The Polk LSi speakers that I have seen measurements for have all been very good, very flat. Same with Revel. I have measured the Concerto2 M16s, very neutral speaker. Revel has the same response target for every speaker they make, so they will all have the same character. I don't know about customer service for these companies. I have dealt with people in all of these companies and they have all been responsive, but that was not in the context of a customer relationship.

 

[TechHDS]

I don't know about the ML Motion speakers. The Polk LSi speakers that I have seen measurements for have all been very good, very flat. Same with Revel. I have measured the Concerto2 M16s, very neutral speaker. Revel has the same response target for every speaker they make, so they will all have the same character. I don't know about customer service for these companies. I have dealt with people in all of these companies and they have all been responsive, but that was not in the context of a customer relationship.

Thxs, its going to be a tough decision in near for me. I like the Revel F36, Polk uses' wood veneer, Revel wood/ gloss Martin Logan motions can't remember. The 3 mention are good upper mid level speakers, maybe entry level audiophile, subjectively speaking of course. Just hope I don't cheap myself out, was thinking of Polk A9's. But from the reviews on them, are power hungry which I have the amp for, but I don't want a speaker that has to be crankup to get them sounding good, I have that now.

 

[shadyJ]

Thxs, its going to be a tough decision in near for me. I like the Revel F36, Polk uses' wood veneer, Revel wood/ gloss Martin Logan motions can't remember. The 3 mention are good upper mid level speakers, maybe entry level audiophile, subjectively speaking of course. Just hope I don't cheap myself out, was thinking of Polk A9's. But from the reviews on them, are power hungry which I have the amp for, but I don't want a speaker that has to be crankup to get them sounding good, I have that now.

There is no such thing as power hungry speakers in the way that people normally use that term. Maybe if the speakers are low sensitivity, or have a poor impedance response. Polk RTi A9s are certainly not power hungry. In fact they are probably a bit more efficient than normal. Speakers do not 'open up' or have 'better bass' if you give them gobs off power. All you will do is give them a greater dynamic range. Increasing power does not change the qualitative sound of speaker, unless the speakers were badly underpowered previously.

 

[TechHDS]

There is no such thing as power hungry speakers in the way that people normally use that term. Maybe if the speakers are low sensitivity, or have a poor impedance response. Polk RTi A9s are certainly not power hungry. In fact they are probably a bit more efficient than normal. Speakers do not 'open up' or have 'better bass' if you give them gobs off power. All you will do is give them a greater dynamic range. Increasing power does not change the qualitative sound of speaker, unless the speakers were badly underpowered previously.

Polks Rti-A9's, are a Big speaker from what I have read with the reviews the ones who do have them are saying when they add a Amp to their AVR or whatever they are driving them with. A9's come 'alive" 'open up' but your analogy makes sense better Dynamics would be the correct terminology for describing a speaker when adding a good quality add-on amp.