What does truth finding sources like Audioholics say about Preamps ?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now let's look at separate amps.

Outlaw 7075 amp: rated @ 75 wpc x 7, outputs 86 wpc x 6 ch driven:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/amplifiers/1680/test-bench-for-the-web-outlaw-audio-model-970-preamplifierprocessor-and-model-7075-power-amplifier.html

Outlaw 7125 amp: rated @ 125 wpc x 7, outputs 140 wpc x 6 ch driven:
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/amplifiers/206outlaw/index4.html

Outlaw 770 amp: rated @ 200 wpc x 7, outputs 215 wpc x 6 ch driven:
http://ultimateavmag.com/surroundsoundpreampprocessors/147/index4.html

Anthem MCA 50 Amp: rated @ 180 wpc x 5, outputs 182 wpc x 5 ch driven:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/amplifiers/1814/test-bench-anthem-avm-50-preampprocessor-and-mca-50-amplifier.html

Anyway, that's just interesting FYI. None of us really need more than 80 wpc x 7, right?

Edit: Also, not all separate amps are great and not all receivers are bad either.

 

[Warpdrv]

Awesome thread...

I agree with you BMXtrix to a certain degree.... I use a Pioneer receiver for my Pre-amp and I love the way it works, and it sounds fantastic, is it perfect? probably not, but I bought a second one for the same purpose in my second system, but only because there haven't been any descent alternatives in the Pre-amp realm on the market until recently that will fill all my needs.

The part where I'm not so much with you is the build quality of the products, where, and this all changes from one Manufacturer to another, there are different grades of components, silicon boards, multilayer tracing, etc. etc. I could go on and on... Don't get me wrong I like the bang for my buck, and if it gets the job done awesome, and I will make sacrifices to get more features and know it works then to struggle with a unit that hasn't been perfect right from day 1 and sit around and beg and plead with a company to get everything working properly. Alot of those companies in japan cut corners on parts to get something out the door to the "Stupid Consumer" and sell product.. But that is not always the case...

Here's where you are right,
What about Anthem, the D2 comes to mind here, when the thread over at AVS is just littered with complaints of a products that has been rushed to market and let the consumer be your guinea pig while you work on the firmware... while on the otherhand Onkyopro/Integra have a great product on release for 1/4 the cost or so... Come on here, what about testing before release? So Anthem has the better built product but they are nothing but trouble? People are selling off their D2's because they are so frustrated, and can get everything they need in the Integra..

So all the snobs out there that say, you have to spend the big bucks to get the better product, I think you should have saved your money and waited.

I'm still waiting, and when everything I want is right there for a descent price I will upgrade. Until then I can wait and be happy with my half A$$ed seperates !!!!!

 

[mtrycrafts]

Cant say I agree that a reciever could ever be as good as a quality seperate preamp. When I say preamp i mean an analog 2 channel preamp. Not some video switching, audio expanding, 600 eq settings HT "thing"

Actually, it is one's ears and all of ours is the limiting factor in most cases; is it audibly different under bias controlled conditions, period.
If they are well designed, most are, then it will be transparent.
And, in a receiver, the specs do go through the preamp section as well. They do tell us something.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I just hate it when manufacturers (except HK) claim that their receivers are 140 wpc x 7 and it's actually only about 90 wpc x 7 ch driven. Whether you need all that power is another story.

Doesn't anyone feel a little cheated?

Not at all as you are misreading what the specs and the makers state. HK tell you that it is all 7 ch driven. Others do not claim this.
No real need for all channel driven specs, zero.
Try and compare the two channel driven or one ch driven spec of an HK and its counterpart. Now you will have a good 3 dB difference at times.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You mean this THX Select-2 from Pioneer Elite that is rated at 140 wpc x7, but only outputs 61 wpc x 7 ch driven???

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2642/test-bench-pioneer-vsx-94txh-av-receiver.html

How can they go from 140 watts to 61 watts?

THX certification?

For some odd reason you are hung up on "ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN" specs. Why? Useless and not needed. But to answer your question above, yes, that is a THX certification as they don't have an all channels driven spec for a very good reason, no need. It is a marketing spec. I think you will like audio better if you forgot those specs.

 

[wire]

I just hate it when manufacturers (except HK) claim that their receivers are 140 wpc x 7 and it's actually only about 90 wpc x 7 ch driven. Whether you need all that power is another story.

Doesn't anyone feel a little cheated?

I cant stand it either , i really dislike liers .

 

[wire]

For some odd reason you are hung up on "ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN" specs. Why? Useless and not needed. But to answer your question above, yes, that is a THX certification as they don't have an all channels driven spec for a very good reason, no need. It is a marketing spec. I think you will like audio better if you forgot those specs.

Its been like this for years , ever since i followed hifi , the lowermidrange stuff has always lied about there power ratings and nothing has changed , unfortunatly . It was until i tryed NAD and Carver ( HK made a good Amp back then ) way back when that i realized the scam .

 

[gus6464]

So for example when you compare 2 reasonably priced pre/integrated amps like the HK3485 and Rega Brio 3 would you say the HK is the better unit for it's better amp section and bigger current rating? (42amps) HK puts out 150Wx2 @4ohm while the Rega puts out 68Wx2 @4ohms. Rega is $200 more than HK.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So for example when you compare 2 reasonably priced pre/integrated amps like the HK3485 and Rega Brio 3 would you say the HK is the better unit for it's better amp section and bigger current rating? (42amps) HK puts out 150Wx2 @4ohm while the Rega puts out 68Wx2 @4ohms. Rega is $200 more than HK.

They may be both equivalent, but I would vote for the Rega Brio 3.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not at all as you are misreading what the specs and the makers state. HK tell you that it is all 7 ch driven. Others do not claim this.
No real need for all channel driven specs, zero.
Try and compare the two channel driven or one ch driven spec of an HK and its counterpart. Now you will have a good 3 dB difference at times.

Like you said, it's probably no big deal. Most of us will probably never use more than 50 watts per channel. It's just interesting topic to break the ice at a party.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It's just interesting topic to break the ice at a party.

You mean the girls at your party talk amp speak?

 

[mike c]

You mean the girls at your party talk amp speak?

that's one boring party 99% geeks 1% female (if ever)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You mean the girls at your party talk amp speak?

Well, since I'm married, I'm not allowed to talk to other girls at parties. So I have to talk to other guys.

 

[WmAx]

A pre-amplifier is a trivial thing to design to be perfectly transparent to human ears. I can (literally) take $15-$20 worth of parts(and this is at low volume pricing such as available to a DIYer) and assemble a pre-amplifier that is of very low noise and distortion(far below audibility on both counts).

Most decent receivers will have low noise pre-amp outs that will be transparent to human ears. There may be the occasional unit with an audible hiss. The placebo effect may be a common factor, and I suspect is the primary one, in people detecting [imaginary] differences.

I have perhaps the most absurd standards for audio quality possible, and these days I use an old HK AVR55 as my pre-amplifier. Why? It was cheap(found it in Goodwill for $25), it has digital readout 'dB' adjust numbers and is remote controlled. It has no self noise evident. I sold off my Stereophile Class B pre-amplifier a long time ago - the old HK receiver is a better pre-amplifier IMO(the receiver has digital volume readouts where as the Adcom GFP-750 did not).

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well, since I'm married, I'm not allowed to talk to other girls at parties. So I have to talk to other guys.

No other wives? And all the guys speak amp talk? No football, baseball, basketball? But then, I don't talk sports either

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No other wives? And all the guys speak amp talk? No football, baseball, basketball? But then, I don't talk sports either

Football is good. TVs, Amps, receivers, and speakers are good. Toys for boys.

 

[Thaedium]

Interesting material here.


I have no preference either way. I do however find it interesting how adament some people are in insisting that seperates are better, albeit mostly with caveats. As FMW, and WmAx have stated previously, so long as the components are good enough to not impart any artificial noise to the output then it will make no difference which way you go. That said, the only real factors when considering a purchase are your intended results. If you are planing a straight 2 channel setup, and have speakers rated for higher wattage then it would make sense to follow the seperates route. On the other hand, if you are interested in a 7 channel system orientated towards a movie experience then a reciever would make far more sense. I don't know many people that can sit and watch a movie at the same volume that you might blast ZZ Top's La Grange...

You mean this THX Select-2 from Pioneer Elite that is rated at 140 wpc x7, but only outputs 61 wpc x 7 ch driven???

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html

How can they go from 140 watts to 61 watts?

THX certification?

You've taken that article a bit out of context Acu, heh. For that test, all speakers were set to large ( not really sure why anyone would run a 7.1 setup with all speakers set to large ), and all figures were worst-case scenario. If you read the full article, the reviewer actually gives the reciever a fairly stellar rating. His only minus ratings were for the crappy remote and plain-jane on screen menu.

Regardless, I run that very same reciever now on a 3.1 setup and I can still play it louder/clearer then any human can stand while sitting in the room. I have had friends say they could hear the music booming from my house fairly clearly once they got out of their cars and were headed to my door. Would seperates improve upon this? I sincerely doubt it, but I'm not discounting the possibility either. In any case, I bought a reciever because I required the flexibilty of a reciever to handle many many sources, including xbox, dvd, satellite, computer, Ipod, xm satellite radio, Velodyne DD-15 on-screen calibration tool, and my near future addition of a blu-ray player. The switching is seamless with the exception of the occassional HDCP hickups, no fault of the recievers. Is there a seperate that can do all that? probably, but I doubt for cheaper then a $1000, and then I'll need an amp, and again I'll be looking at another $1000 or so, especially since my endstate speaker setup will be 7.1. All in all, it is more cost effective, and performs just as well as seperates.

apologies for the long winded response, I really summed up my opinion earlier on the matter when I said the real consideration when choosing the seperate or intergrated route is the intended use for the system as a whole.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...You've taken that article a bit out of context Acu, heh...

Well...Okay...Alright...Sorry...Geez...

I am willing to admit that receivers may sound just as good as separates.

The fact is, I have not listened to any of the new generation (TrueHD, DTS-MA) receivers in my home yet. I've only listened to them at the local HT stores, and I was not a bit impressed with the sound quality. Maybe they do sound just as good as separates if listening at home.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... I have had friends say they could hear the music booming from my house fairly clearly once they got out of their cars and were headed to my door. Would seperates improve upon this? I sincerely doubt it, but I'm not discounting the possibility either. .

Certainly. That extra 3dB or 6dB would allow your guests to hear it down the block, in their cars and enjoy it before they get to the house.

 

[Thaedium]

Certainly. That extra 3dB or 6dB would allow your guests to hear it down the block, in their cars and enjoy it before they get to the house.

LoL... Thats mint.