What do we know about Underwood mods for universal players?

[vman71]

Im not trying to belittle your modding of your units,even though i firmly believe that paying for mods is taking a step backwards instead of just buying a better player.

It's a very fine balancing act. I personally cannot afford to buy highly modded equipment. So since I can't afford it, I either try to do it myself or buy "used" modded equipment. I agree, there are many times where it's just better to invest right up front.

i also believe that if a person has the skills to do their own mods then it adds to the fun in listening.

Yes, there's a great deal of satisfaction when you can personally do the upgrades.

If i come off as being crass about mods its only because ive been in this hobby for a long time & ive seen many a hobbiest spend copious amounts of cash on mods & tweaks only to sell off the gear & loose a fat wad.

I understand your point of view and agree, a lot of money is either lost or wasted with BOTH the buying of equipment and the modding of equipment. I don't charge a lot of money for the very limited mods that I do. Also, since I don't depend on making money from mods (I have a very good job), I can be more honest about what and how much to mod and charge less for the work I do (I don't really have any overhead).

If I never did another mod for a customer, I would be fine with that. I just do it because I think offers tremendous value. Certainly the value is more the longer you keep the modded unit that you've invested the money in.

 

[krabapple]

Another, maybe better example would be:
I just bought a K&N air filter for my car. Sure, it was 5 times the cost of a plain air filter. However, now my car is getting 2mpg more per gallon.

A measureable, and perhaps significant result. What I never seem to see, are similar before/after measureable, perhaps significant (i.e., audible) results presented for audiophile mods. It amazes me that someone would spend hundreds or thousands on a mod, and not demand at least objective evidence of before/after difference, in the form of bench test results before/after.

 

[Bassman2]

Vman71, what part are you modding on your 1930ci? I have the same unit and lots of experience modding guitars, effects and amplifiers, so I'd like to find plans, parts or kits for my DVD player and crossovers etc if possible. Thanks.

 

[vman71]

A measureable, and perhaps significant result. What I never seem to see, are similar before/after measureable, perhaps significant (i.e., audible) results presented for audiophile mods. It amazes me that someone would spend hundreds or thousands on a mod, and not demand at least objective evidence of before/after difference, in the form of bench test results before/after.

I do agree that it would be nice to have some quantifiable measurement for the before & after of mods (regardless of price). Some things, I don't think require "measurement" to say "it's better." Example, when I see my upconverted picture (full 1080P) vs. my old 480P, I don't need to count lines of resolution or pixels to tell me that it's better, I just know.

Same goes with the right mods, done correctly. You just know. Such is the case when I do xover mods. I can clearly hear an improvement (primairly in the highs and mids, much less in the lows). I'm so confident of it, I ALWAYS offer a full money back guaruntee, no questions asked. If you don't feel that it improved the sound, I'll put it back to stock and refund the entire price of the mod.

BTW- my mod prices for a pair of xovers is usually only $250, which includes parts and labor.

 

[vman71]

Vman71, what part are you modding on your 1930ci? I have the same unit and lots of experience modding guitars, effects and amplifiers, so I'd like to find plans, parts or kits for my DVD player and crossovers etc if possible. Thanks.

I'm actually installing a single device, soldering it on to the "hot" and "neutral" leads right inside the chasis. It will be the only mod that I have done to the 1930CI, so I will be able to clearly isolate it's affect on both the audio & video.

I will post my results, probably next week, as I'm supposed to get the device from the manufacturer late this week. From what he, the manufacturer, tells me, this device will work on every component that gets power from the wall.

I trust him very much, as I have one of his products already and it delivered in spades.

BTW- the device costs $200 and comes with a full money back guarantee.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Another, maybe better example would be:
I just bought a K&N air filter for my car. Sure, it was 5 times the cost of a plain air filter. However, now my car is getting 2mpg more per gallon. You do the math.....it will easily more than pay for itself. I bought it to enjoy the benefits of it and not to see what it was going to do the resale price of my car.

Well, I'd have to ask how you did your measurements for that 2 MPG improvement? One tank? Out normal driving and fill-ups? Or, on a dyno with accurate measurements hooked up to the fuel line and a before and after measurement?

 

[zhimbo]

Same goes with the right mods, done correctly. You just know.

Maybe...but, well, I'll let Mark Twain say it: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

 

[vman71]

Well, I'd have to ask how you did your measurements for that 2 MPG improvement? One tank? Out normal driving and fill-ups? Or, on a dyno with accurate measurements hooked up to the fuel line and a before and after measurement?

Over a couple of tanks of real world driving. Same daily driving that I normally do. Is it exactly 2mpg, no, give or take just a little.

The point is that I'm noticing an increase in my mpg under the same driving conditions prior to the K&N air filter installation.

My vehicle tells me what my mpg is. So I'm comparing what it was before and what it is now. It's roughly 2mpg.

 

[vman71]

Maybe...but, well, I'll let Mark Twain say it: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

So what's your point?

 

[avaserfi]

So what's your point?

It seems he is implying that you think you know something when in fact it might not be true and if it isn't you are gonna get in trouble. The quote makes that pretty clear .

 

[vman71]

It seems he is implying that you think you know something when in fact it might not be true and if it isn't you are gonna get in trouble. The quote makes that pretty clear .

I know what he meant, I was being sarcastic.

I'm not trying to convince anybody here that mods are the way to go. They just are flat out wrong for some people and for others they are right. It just depends.

My point in all this is, from my personal experience, mods have been an improvement to the performance of my audio system. I clearly stated that I can hear an improvement and hearing for me is believing. I further have said that not a single customer of mine has said that it didn't improve the performance of their audio system.

For those willing to try it, I say go for it. Be careful who does your mods, be smart about what & how much you mod, and have fun with the audio journey.

 

[Nick250]

Over a couple of tanks of real world driving. Same daily driving that I normally do. Is it exactly 2mpg, no, give or take just a little.

The point is that I'm noticing an increase in my mpg under the same driving conditions prior to the K&N air filter installation.

My vehicle tells me what my mpg is. So I'm comparing what it was before and what it is now. It's roughly 2mpg.

This 2 mpg metaphor has made me curious, what vehicle are you we talking about here?

Nick

 

[mtrycrafts]

... and hearing for me is believing. .

Yes, it may be. And Dr. Floyd Toole has also stated that believing is hearing.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Over a couple of tanks of real world driving. Same daily driving that I normally do. Is it exactly 2mpg, no, give or take just a little.

The point is that I'm noticing an increase in my mpg under the same driving conditions prior to the K&N air filter installation.

My vehicle tells me what my mpg is. So I'm comparing what it was before and what it is now. It's roughly 2mpg.

Well, it is certainly not convincing evidence. Lots of reasons why this might be the case, or why it is a false perception. That is why I asked how the testing was conducted. I don't see any precision in the testing. Not your fault.

 

[vman71]

Well, it is certainly not convincing evidence. Lots of reasons why this might be the case, or why it is a false perception. That is why I asked how the testing was conducted. I don't see any precision in the testing. Not your fault.

It is my perception, based on what I have noticed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that my testing wasn't done in any sort of dedicated and controlled environment. Most people who do buy better parts, components, etc. don't test them with professional grade equipment, dedicated or controlled environments.

It's based on their perceptions, which we can all agree that are subjective.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It's based on their perceptions, which we can all agree that are subjective.

Yes. Perception is fallible and often it is.

 

[vman71]

Yes. Perception is fallible and often it is.

And I'm sure that you have bought many things based on perception (yours as well as others), opinions (yours as well as others), recommendations from others, and reviews (that were not from a professional source).

All of these are subjective, which make them fallible, but you've still bought things based on these subjective and fallible things.

 

[Tomorrow]

Yes. Perception is fallible and often it is.

There is one tiny fly-in-the-ointment in this line of thinking, though, mtry. In the world that is experienced by the human brain, perception = reality. If then perception = fallible = reality is acceptable logic, we're in agreement. But in the end, it doesn't tell us much. Does it?

Here's an analogy. Religion is so pervasive in the world to almost be universal. Logic plays no part in faith. To billions of individuals on the planet, their particular perception of reality is faith based. Physics charts will no more move a true believer than audio graphs will move an experiential listener.

I guess that's the penalty we pay for being human...not knowing ultimate reality. And you know what? That's not a gimp old man talking. That's the position of modern physicists who subcribe to the enigmas of quantum physics.

I understand that I'm making an obscure point and taking this discussion a bit far afield. But it is a way of stating that you cannot convince anyone who has their own perception of reality .... of yours.

 

[avaserfi]

There is one tiny fly-in-the-ointment in this line of thinking, though, mtry. In the world that is experienced by the human brain, perception = reality. If then perception = fallible = reality is acceptable logic, we're in agreement. But in the end, it doesn't tell us much. Does it?

Here's an analogy. Religion is so pervasive in the world to almost be universal. Logic plays no part in faith. To billions of individuals on the planet, their particular perception of reality is faith based. Physics charts will no more move a true believer than audio graphs will move an experiential listener.

I guess that's the penalty we pay for being human...not knowing ultimate reality. And you know what? That's not a gimp old man talking. That's the position of modern physicists who subcribe to the enigmas of quantum physics.

I understand that I'm making an obscure point and taking this discussion a bit far afield. But it is a way of stating that you cannot convince anyone who has their own perception of reality .... of yours.

Very true. Besides even if these mods do nothing and it is all just placebo effects if the user feels as if something is gained, even if it is non-existent outside of their imagination well they still got something in the form of peace of mind.

 

[krabapple]

I do agree that it would be nice to have some quantifiable measurement for the before & after of mods (regardless of price). Some things, I don't think require "measurement" to say "it's better." Example, when I see my upconverted picture (full 1080P) vs. my old 480P, I don't need to count lines of resolution or pixels to tell me that it's better, I just know.

That's not a valid analogy. There is no question that we were nowhere near the possible limits of resolution of video, in the 480p days. But for audio, just what are you improving?

Same goes with the right mods, done correctly. You just know.

Sorry, but that;s simply inadequate...certainly science and engineering don't accept "I just know" as sufficient evidence of effect.

Such is the case when I do xover mods. I can clearly hear an improvement (primairly in the highs and mids, much less in the lows). I'm so confident of it, I ALWAYS offer a full money back guaruntee, no questions asked. If you don't feel that it improved the sound, I'll put it back to stock and refund the entire price of the mod.

Crossover mods may well have a significant audible effect. Whether its a good one, is another story. Before and after measurements would really be useful. And AFAIK it's usually not a good idea to go changing crossovers on already-vetted speaker designs.

BTW- my mod prices for a pair of xovers is usually only $250, which includes parts and labor.

So? That's $250 that could have been put to more technically justifiable use.
Like room treatment.