What could possibly go wrong?

[Pogre]

I suppose its the simplistic approach like with religion where you offer unconditional faith in exchange for "answers"....they expect science is such a font of "answers".

Exactly. Sometimes "I don't know" is the only honest answer, but lot of religions confidently claim they have it so I think a lot of folks assume science does the same. It really doesn't. There are no tenets or dogma.

I don't know if *absolute* truth or knowledge is even possible, but I believe the scientific method is demonstrably the best tool we've got to get us as close to it as possible.

 

[Pogre]

Yup. Well put, and you bring up another point the anti-science or just "lack of understanding" crowd likes to make. If science is correct then why does it change? Well, when new data is found and applied, you change what you think. It's not subjective.

Yeah, that one kills me. "Science is always changing".

If it didn't change as more accurate information is discovered where would we be right now? That's the whole point!

 

[highfigh]

If there is no reading and math proficiency requirements, then there really isn't much point nor much value in attending school at all!

THIS is why the USA is getting spanked in the business world by other big world players.

Skilled labor is incredibly difficult to find in the USA at this point.

Business? Nah, that's one area where the US is 'winning'. Where we're getting our ass handed to us is in STEM areas, on average. The best and brightest, wealthy kids and the kids who end up in better schools via busing programs will always have the opportunities they need, but only if the states allow or require that ALL of the STEM results meet some high standard.

That governor needs to go. NOW. If they want to pull this shyte, they should close the state border, so the uneducated can't escape and infect the rest of the World., through no fault of their own.

'Skilled labor' and 'manual labor' are sometimes considered 'beneath' the children of people who have the idea that little Johnny and Susie are better than that, without asking if the kids are interested, have the aptitude or if they could actually do better in life with those jobs.

The US education system is a disgrace.

 

[highfigh]

Wow. The US needs to wake the truck up and start teaching critical thinking skills along with proper skepticism.

But, that would teach the kids to see that our government is screwing us- why would they want that?

 

[highfigh]

It drives me nuts simply because anything could be a "theory" but people don't understand that there is a massive difference between your idiot brother thinking the earth is flat es a "theory" and there being a widely acceptable theory like gravity.

Relativity is a theory, gravity can be and has been tested.

 

[highfigh]

It's true. People often have the wrong idea of what it even is. Science doesn't make truth proclamations or claim we've answered everything. It's collecting data and building models that offer tentative explanations to describe the observations. It's put out there for review, where everyone in the field takes turns trying to poke holes in it. If it survives the review process it's put forth as a theory. It's never set in stone and is open to modification as we learn more about "x". It's self correcting and embraces the possibility the models could be wrong. Nobel prizes are awarded when someone proves an accepted model wrong.

I think it's the single best method we have for determining the facts about reality that best match what we can see and experience. It never claims absolute truth or knowledge, but gets us about as close to it as possible, and can be refined and updated as we learn more.

Again, I know you understand that, but a lot of folks don't. I just wanted to put it out there.

IIRC, the steps are:

Hypothesis-->testing-->analysis-->conclusions-->theory

Is this correct?

 

[highfigh]

Yeah, that one kills me. "Science is always changing".

If it didn't change as more accurate information is discovered where would we be right now? That's the whole point!

Here's some REAL science for ya- let me know if you see anything odd at :48 seconds into the clip-

 

[Pogre]

IIRC, the steps are:

Hypothesis-->testing-->analysis-->conclusions-->theory

Is this correct?

Pretty much that's how I understand it too. I'd also point out that for a Hypothesis to be testable, it also needs to be falsifiable.

 

[highfigh]

Pretty much that's how I understand it too. I'd also point out that for a Hypothesis to be testable, it also needs to be falsifiable.

I was taught that whether it was true or false doesn't matter, it just has to be tested. Caring about true/false is an emotional bias and that shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Pogre]

I was taught that whether it was true or false doesn't matter, it just has to be tested. Caring about true/false is an emotional bias and that shouldn't be allowed.

Exactly. It's true or false independent of what anyone thinks or expects. Eliminating bias is a big part of experimentation.

 

[Pogre]

Being wrong about something is what leads to discovery, and discovering new truths is the most exciting part of doing science.

 

[highfigh]

Being wrong about something is what leads to more discovery, and discovering new truths is the most exciting part of doing science.

Imagine if the proverbial 'apple falling on Newton's head' was a big rock- we would never have reached our current level of knowledge and technology.

 

[Pogre]

I was taught that whether it was true or false doesn't matter, it just has to be tested. Caring about true/false is an emotional bias and that shouldn't be allowed.

I might have misunderstood what you were getting at when I first read this post. You're right, but it still needs to be falsifiable in order to be testable. If it's unfalsifiable there's no way to test.

 

[highfigh]

I might have misunderstood what you were getting at when I first read this post. You're right, but it still needs to be falsifiable in order to be testable. If it's unfalsifiable there's no way to test.

False results HAVE to be allowed- otherwise, it's just testing for positives. My point is, CARING about the outcome is where the bias enters the picture and when interpreting the test results, it's possible to skew the conclusion. Kind of like the modern media, but at a much smaller level (I would hope).

 

[panteragstk]

False results HAVE to be allowed- otherwise, it's just testing for positives. My point is, CARING about the outcome is where the bias enters the picture and when interpreting the test results, it's possible to skew the conclusion. Kind of like the modern media, but at a much smaller level (I would hope).

Yep, when testing you may HOPE for a specific result, but what you get is what you get. Facts are facts. Just because people don't like them, doesn't mean they get to skew things in their favor then pretend it was an objective experiment.

I'm surprised @NINaudio hasn't popped up in here. He knows a hell of a lot more about the scientific process than any of us probably do.

 

[NINaudio]

Yep, when testing you may HOPE for a specific result, but what you get is what you get. Facts are facts. Just because people don't like them, doesn't mean they get to skew things in their favor then pretend it was an objective experiment.

I'm surprised @NINaudio hasn't popped up in here. He knows a hell of a lot more about the scientific process than any of us probably do.

I haven't read this thread. I saw the news articles and just shook my head because it's one of the dumbest things I think someone could do. This country needs better reading/science/math education, not an elimination of any of them.

 

[lovinthehd]

I haven't read this thread. I saw the news articles and just shook my head because it's one of the dumbest things I think someone could do. This country needs better reading/science/math education, not an elimination of any of them.

OTOH it isn't really about that from what I've seen, just an option for certain students. Plenty of students pass these subjects and even college without any actual skills in this regard....I had a kid work for me a few years ago was a college graduate (4 year) and couldn't write or even basically compose a letter. Was from a well known NY university, too. I was totally floored as a guy who (myself) quit college in the first year but probably wrote better than this guy did after graduation when I was in 8th grade.

 

[NINaudio]

Most people don't realize that when a scientist uses the word "theory", they're not using the colloquial "it's just a theory" version. A theory is the best explanation we have to describe the observations we see in reality. A scientific theory has been put through the wringer and has held up to all attempts to prove it wrong. Theories aren't just guesses.

I know you prolly already know that, but a lot of folks don't.

This. A scientific theory has had lots and lots of research and testing putting into it. When most people say something is "theory" they actually mean it's a hypothesis.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

We see evidence of things like that every day on AH. It's time to drag out one of my favorite quotes. This one is from Issac Asimov. (Asimov (1920-1992) born in Russia, after the Bolshevik revolution but before the USSR days, came to the USA at age 3. He was educated in the US as a biochemist, and became a prolific writer of fiction and especially science fiction.)

He once wrote:

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."​

I think we've all witnessed that among the anti-vaccine people.

a) You beat me to it, you bastard!
b) Minor correction: He wasn't just educated as a biochemist, he was Prof. of biochemistry teaching at Boston College.

 

[highfigh]

Yep, when testing you may HOPE for a specific result, but what you get is what you get. Facts are facts. Just because people don't like them, doesn't mean they get to skew things in their favor then pretend it was an objective experiment.

I'm surprised @NINaudio hasn't popped up in here. He knows a hell of a lot more about the scientific process than any of us probably do.

Let them be biased on their own time.