What are some speaker bargains?

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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Compression drivers are a ton more sensitive, however, horn loading of titanium drivers still greatly improves sensitivity. Klipsch sensitivity is also measured as “in room”. Regardless, they play a whole lot louder and are much more dynamic than any direct radiating speaker of similar size. The sole reason I would recommend Klipsch over the hsu is because the horn is designed for better controlled directivity, exponential horns beam at high frequencies and have much more narrow coverage off axis. In addition, aluminum drivers featured in Klipsch speakers are much more efficient than paper/poly drivers, since they don’t have the same “lossy” damping characteristics.

Based purely on reviews, the jbl 230 is probably less accurate, it doesn’t feature a horn, but a very shallow waveguide that probably doesn’t offer much loading. Something like the 580 or 590 would definitely work though, and actually does feature a compression driver.

The horn in the Klipsch premier and reference sounds good anywhere in the room. The timbre does not change when sitting off axis, or standing up above the speaker. They also are fairly immune to room placement since the reflected sound is nearly identical in response to the direct sound.

A 90 degree pattern in the Klipsch horns is more than wide enough, chances are, if you’re sitting more than 45 degrees off axis, you probably are going to struggle to see the TV lol.

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I don't think that diaphragm material in these types of drivers is going to make a really serious difference in sensitivity. Regarding tweeter diaphragms, titanium is stronger than aluminium, but aluminium is lighter. Titanium is also paramagnetic, which is not a helpful property for being close to a driver motor. Whatever can achieve the least amount of mass for the requisite strength is going to be key here, but even then you don't want the moving assembly to be too light.

The Hsu horn is not an exponential horn, it is a controlled directivity horn. See Don Keele's classic paper, What's so sacred about Exponential Horns? Here is the simplified explanation.

Aluminium diaphragms for woofers is not altogether an advantage. Breakups modes will be a lot more severe, and it can also weigh more. I don't think aluminium has a real advantage in the frequency ranges and woofer diameters involved here.

I don't think these horns grant any of these speakers nearly as much of an advantage in dynamic range as you seem to think. They are all going to be in the high 80's dB range, anechoically. This isn't hugely more powerful than the mid 80 dB range you will find in many bookshelf speakers with a dome tweeter on a flat baffle or shallow waveguide. I have no doubt that my Behringer 2031p speakers are more powerful than any of the speakers mentioned here, and that is just a dome tweeter in a shallow waveguide. I wouldn't be surprised if the Revel Concerto2s were more powerful than these speakers, and that is just a dome tweeter in shallow waveguide. I bet you many of the AMT tweeters out there can keep up with these horn-loaded domes with no problem. Unless you put a serious compression driver behind these horns, don't treat them as if they are ready for the Imax (note: not all compression drivers are serious).

I also think it is very speculative to think the JBL Studio 230 is less accurate than these Klipsch speakers. I don't see any reason to think that, especially given JBL's historical target curves vs Klipsch's historical target curves. Serious measurements would be needed to make that evaluation.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I don't think that diaphragm material in these types of drivers is going to make a really serious difference in sensitivity. Regarding tweeter diaphragms, titanium is stronger than aluminium, but aluminium is lighter. Titanium is also paramagnetic, which is not a helpful property for being close to a driver motor. Whatever can achieve the least amount of mass for the requisite strength is going to be key here, but even then you don't want the moving assembly to be too light.

The Hsu horn is not an exponential horn, it is a controlled directivity horn. See Don Keele's classic paper, What's so sacred about Exponential Horns? Here is the simplified explanation.

Aluminium diaphragms for woofers is not altogether an advantage. Breakups modes will be a lot more severe, and it can also weigh more. I don't think aluminium has a real advantage in the frequency ranges and woofer diameters involved here.

I don't think these horns grant any of these speakers nearly as much of an advantage in dynamic range as you seem to think. They are all going to be in the high 80's dB range, anechoically. This isn't hugely more powerful than the mid 80 dB range you will find in many bookshelf speakers with a dome tweeter on a flat baffle or shallow waveguide. I have no doubt that my Behringer 2031p speakers are more powerful than any of the speakers mentioned here, and that is just a dome tweeter in a shallow waveguide. I wouldn't be surprised if the Revel Concerto2s were more powerful than these speakers, and that is just a dome tweeter in shallow waveguide. I bet you many of the AMT tweeters out there can keep up with these horn-loaded domes with no problem. Unless you put a serious compression driver behind these horns, don't treat them as if they are ready for the Imax (note: not all compression drivers are serious).

I also think it is very speculative to think the JBL Studio 230 is less accurate than these Klipsch speakers. I don't see any reason to think that, especially given JBL's historical target curves vs Klipsch's historical target curves. Serious measurements would be needed to make that evaluation.
I may have misread the specs for the hsu. You are correct, they are a CD design. I may have to pick up a pair and check them out then.

Reviews for the studio series often describe them as brittle or harsh sounding.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/jbl-studio-2-speaker-system


I agree, diaphragm material is irrelevant so long as it’s properly designed. Comparing the aluminum diaphragms in the Klipsch Reference vs titanium in the premier, they do have a bit different voicing. The titanium diaphragms seem to extend higher, to about 22khz, whereas the aluminum takes a dump above 16khz. The aluminum diaphragms sound a bit less “resolving”, I have no idea why this is, since neither speaker measures bright (iow the detail resolution is not due to fake high end accentuation).

When mentioning dynamic range, I am not only referring to sensitivity, but the ability to play at very high volumes without distortion or compression. 100dB at 11’ at 50hz & 3% distortion, and 100dB at 80hz & 1.5% distortion is nothing to sneeze at. At 105dB @11’ from 500hz to 20khz, distortion in the lower frequencies at its highest is 1.3%, above 1500hz where the horn takes over it remains below 1%, often being fractions of a percent. Diaphragm material matters in this regard because ceramic anodized aluminum is very rigid, and does not break up as readily with high excursion. Very few 5.25” bookshelf speakers are capable of achieving the type of movie playback levels I listen at with the distance I sit from them.

I have no idea what IMAX reference levels are, Dolby and THX reference levels are 85dB with -20dBfs pink noise, with peak dynamics of 105dB. Believe it or not, many non IMAX theaters run movies at a fader level of 5-5.5 vs 7 (which is Reference). The Dolby fader goes by 3.3dB steps from 4.0-10, so a fader of 5 would be -6.6dB. That calls for ~98dB peaks per channel. Most home theaters center around -10dB, which calls for 95dB of headroom at the mlp per speaker. Since appropriately sized Klipsch speakers are capable of achieving this without distortion, I would conclude that they are certainly capable of realistic cinema reproduction. Anyone who follows my postings knows I regularly watch movies at -10 to -5dB, and I have no issue whatsoever, even with the fairly large distance from the speakers.


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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I may have misread the specs for the hsu. You are correct, they are a CD design. I may have to pick up a pair and check them out then.

Reviews for the studio series often describe them as brittle or harsh sounding.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/jbl-studio-2-speaker-system


I agree, diaphragm material is irrelevant so long as it’s properly designed. Comparing the aluminum diaphragms in the Klipsch Reference vs titanium in the premier, they do have a bit different voicing. The titanium diaphragms seem to extend higher, to about 22khz, whereas the aluminum takes a dump above 16khz. The aluminum diaphragms sound a bit less “resolving”, I have no idea why this is, since neither speaker measures bright (iow the detail resolution is not due to fake high end accentuation).

When mentioning dynamic range, I am not only referring to sensitivity, but the ability to play at very high volumes without distortion or compression. 100dB at 11’ at 50hz & 3% distortion, and 100dB at 80hz & 1.5% distortion is nothing to sneeze at. At 105dB @11’ from 500hz to 20khz, distortion in the lower frequencies at its highest is 1.3%, above 1500hz where the horn takes over it remains below 1%, often being fractions of a percent. Diaphragm material matters in this regard because ceramic anodized aluminum is very rigid, and does not break up as readily with high excursion. Very few 5.25” bookshelf speakers are capable of achieving the type of movie playback levels I listen at with the distance I sit from them.

I have no idea what IMAX reference levels are, Dolby and THX reference levels are 85dB with -20dBfs pink noise, with peak dynamics of 105dB. Believe it or not, many non IMAX theaters run movies at a fader level of 5-5.5 vs 7 (which is Reference). The Dolby fader goes by 3.3dB steps from 4.0-10, so a fader of 5 would be -6.6dB. That calls for ~98dB peaks per channel. Most home theaters center around -10dB, which calls for 95dB of headroom at the mlp per speaker. Since appropriately sized Klipsch speakers are capable of achieving this without distortion, I would conclude that they are certainly capable of realistic cinema reproduction. Anyone who follows my postings knows I regularly watch movies at -10 to -5dB, and I have no issue whatsoever, even with the fairly large distance from the speakers.


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One person's 'brittleness' or 'harshness' is another person's 'upper treble detail.' I would pay far more attention to measurements than anecdotes.

Aluminium tweeters can have an extended response above 20 kHz. If one of the Klipsch speakers are not able to achieve that with aluminium, don't blame the diaphragm material. That would be a design question.

By the way, excursion is not what causes breakup. Frequency is. Breakup will occur at any amplitude when the right frequencies are attempted, but at non-breakup frequencies, the cone can not be driven into breakup modes no matter what the excursion.
 
D

Defcon

Audioholic
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the JBL 230 was based on technology from the JBL M2 which is know is very highly regarded.

w.r.t driver and horn design, I don't know anything and am learning from this discussion.

Is there any consensus answer to these questions -

1. horn loaded CD driver (or from what I read here, in waveguide) result in higher sensitivity
2. higher sensitivity = ability to play louder without distortion, aka dynamics (is this the right definition?)
3. controlled directivity is better or worse?
4. do 1-3 apply to movies/HT or also to music?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
A horn is a type of waveguide. And yes, they do help sensitivity. It directs all the acoustic energy into a narrower beam of sound. By squeezing more energy into a smaller area, you get a more powerful soundfield in exchange for broader coverage. It is also more efficient in that it loads the tweeter with a higher acoustic impedance.

Sensitivity is simply the amount of energy a speaker can produce for a given amount of energy, usually some SPL quantity for 1 watt or 2.83v at 8 ohms at 1 meter in an anechoic setting. Speakers with higher sensitivities usually have a greater dynamic range than those that have low sensitivities, but that is not a hard rule. There are speakers with low sensitivities that are able to handle a lot of power and have a very wide dynamic range, and there are high sensitivity speakers that can't handle much power and thus have low dynamic range.

Controlled directivity is a broad and overused term. It means that the dispersion pattern is narrow or controlled in some fashion so sound isn't just spraying out over a broad area. I wouldn't pay attention to the term unless you know the user knows exactly what they are talking about. It should probably be ignored outside of research papers.

Movies and music mostly have the same demands as far as loudspeaker performance. Movies can dig a bit deeper than most music, if you like action and science fiction movies. Generally speaking, a good home theater system is also a good music system, and vice versa.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
A horn is a type of waveguide. And yes, they do help sensitivity. It directs all the acoustic energy into a narrower beam of sound. By squeezing more energy into a smaller area, you get a more powerful soundfield in exchange for broader coverage. It is also more efficient in that it loads the tweeter with a higher acoustic impedance.

Sensitivity is simply the amount of energy a speaker can produce for a given amount of energy, usually some SPL quantity for 1 watt or 2.83v at 8 ohms at 1 meter in an anechoic setting. Speakers with higher sensitivities usually have a greater dynamic range than those that have low sensitivities, but that is not a hard rule. There are speakers with low sensitivities that are able to handle a lot of power and have a very wide dynamic range, and there are high sensitivity speakers that can't handle much power and thus have low dynamic range.

Controlled directivity is a broad and overused term. It means that the dispersion pattern is narrow or controlled in some fashion so sound isn't just spraying out over a broad area. I wouldn't pay attention to the term unless you know the user knows exactly what they are talking about. It should probably be ignored outside of research papers.

Movies and music mostly have the same demands as far as loudspeaker performance. Movies can dig a bit deeper than most music, if you like action and science fiction movies. Generally speaking, a good home theater system is also a good music system, and vice versa.
Unless you regularly listen to music at 95-105dB, movies are a bit more demanding.

I would define controlled, constant, uniform, or whatever you want to call it, directivity as an off axis response that doesn’t vary in amplitude with frequency. No speaker in the real world is capable of doing this perfectly across the entire frequency range, but speakers can be designed to come close, especially in the range above 1000khz, where timbre and imaging distortions from reflections can become a problem.


I seem to remember reading somewhere that the JBL 230 was based on technology from the JBL M2 which is know is very highly regarded.

w.r.t driver and horn design, I don't know anything and am learning from this discussion.

Is there any consensus answer to these questions -

1. horn loaded CD driver (or from what I read here, in waveguide) result in higher sensitivity
2. higher sensitivity = ability to play louder without distortion, aka dynamics (is this the right definition?)
3. controlled directivity is better or worse?
4. do 1-3 apply to movies/HT or also to music?
1. Yes, loading any driver into a horn increases its sensitivity due to better impedance matching to air, it also reduces distortion by significantly limiting excursion.

2. Generally speaking, but there are exceptions. Plenty of inefficient speakers can put out ridiculous sound pressure levels with very low distortion, like subwoofers for instance. To make a driver have a very low extension while being small in comparison to the wavelength (sub bass frequencies are huge in comparison to the diameter of a sub, 30hz, for example, has a wavelength of 37 feet, while a subwoofer may only be 1 foot in diameter) you generally trade efficiency. With a stiff diaphragm, high power handling, and a lot of xmax (the amount of distance a speaker can travel back and forth), a small, inefficient driver can reproduce very high volumes with low distortion given ample power.

3. I’m of the opinion that it’s almost as important as a flat on axis frequency response, because it A. Ensures that the reflected sound is similar to the direct sound AND depending on how wide the pattern is, it reduces the amplitude of those reflections compared to the direct sound, for example, a horn that had a 90x90 pattern, such as the Klipsch, radiates sound -6dB horizontally at 45 degrees, and -6dB vertically at 45 degrees off axis. Each 15 degree off axis increase translates to about 2dB less output compared to the direct sound. A speaker that doesn’t exhibit controlled/constant directivity may be -3dB at 1khz 45 degrees off axis, but -12 dB at 10khz.

When a speakers amplitude varies with directivity off axis, you have two problems, the first problem, anybody sitting off axis (to the left or right of where the speakers are aimed), they hear something different than those on axis. Best case scenario, they hear rolled off treble response, worst case, they hear a “notched” treble response because of lobing. The second problem, is that in regular small rooms, the sound we hear is a mixture of the direct sound from the speakers and the reflections off the walls/floor/ceiling. Reflections that arrive at our ears within a 50-80ms window are perceived as the same sound, so our brain simply combines the two sounds into one. If a speakers direct sound is accurate, but the reflected sound is not, then the perceived sound will be inaccurate. A speaker that exhibits controlled/constant directivity doesn’t have this problem (or the problem is significantly less, as perfect directivity control just doesn’t exist) because the direct and reflected sound is more or less the same across the frequency range.

Floyd Toole has done a lot of research on this, and in blind tests, listeners prefer speakers with uniform off axis response. See: http://www.cieri.net/Documenti/Altri marchi/Harman Group - Maximizing Loudspeaker Performance in Rooms (Floyd E. Toole).pdf

4. A good speaker sounds good with everything, but unfortunately, all designs involve compromises. By far, the biggest compromise in home audio is size. You can make an excellent sounding speaker flat to 20hz that’s very efficient, has high power handling, and a flat frequency response, but it’s probably gonna be bigger than your refrigerator.

Lots of smaller inefficient speakers sound excellent with music at 80-85dB, they probably sound great with movies too, but if you put them in a big room and try to play movies at reference volume, they’ll sound awful due to overwhelming amounts of distortion, and you might even let the magic smoke out.


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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
One person's 'brittleness' or 'harshness' is another person's 'upper treble detail.' I would pay far more attention to measurements than anecdotes.
True -- and the real world listeners are not complaining about them being brittle or harsh -- most say smooth and detailed, with some good bass
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Movies and music mostly have the same demands as far as loudspeaker performance. Movies can dig a bit deeper than most music, if you like action and science fiction movies. Generally speaking, a good home theater system is also a good music system, and vice versa.
In theory, I agree, but that's not the case with my home HT system. As I've posted before, the Klipsch RF62-IIs I use in that set-up, without a sub, are awesome for HT. I can't come up with an excuse for spending thousands on an alternative, even though I have upgrade-itis. On the one hand, acoustic music tests reveal elevated bass below about 150Hz and mids that are a bit hot too, right where some female voices are. I don't like it at all. OnmiMic II confirms the effects. On the other hand, my wife and I are often making comments about how awesome the HT system sounds. I think movie and TV audio is so contrived that accuracy is not the big win it is with acoustic music.
 
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D

Defcon

Audioholic
How does the JBL 230 compare to Klipsch RP bookshelves? Are both of them capable of reference level playback in a medium size room?

And thoughts on the Sony Core bookshelves SS-CS5? On sale for $75/pair now, and seem to have good reviews too. Is there any way they can hold up to the higher priced JBL/Klipsch?
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
How does the JBL 230 compare to Klipsch RP bookshelves? Are both of them capable of reference level playback in a medium size room?

And thoughts on the Sony Core bookshelves SS-CS5? On sale for $75/pair now, and seem to have good reviews too. Is there any way they can hold up to the higher priced JBL/Klipsch?
Not in dynamic range. If you want to get reference level playback out of a bookshelf speaker, you’re gonna have to go with Klipsch. The HSU might be capable of it as well, but I have no direct experience with it.

Reference level playback is a big task for any speaker. I haven’t tried it with the jbl, but I can say from my own experience and measurements that the 150m is entirely capable of distortion free playback at reference levels from 60hz and above in a medium sized room. All of these speakers, including the Klipsch, will need a sub and need to be crossed over to play back at higher levels. As you can see from the graph, below ~47hz, distortion (and excursion) increases rapidly.


That’s only 85dB, 20dB below reference level. With no sub connected, an avr will simply send the full +10dB LFE signal to the fronts, which could cause them to bottom out and even blow.


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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
One person's 'brittleness' or 'harshness' is another person's 'upper treble detail.' I would pay far more attention to measurements than anecdotes.

Aluminium tweeters can have an extended response above 20 kHz. If one of the Klipsch speakers are not able to achieve that with aluminium, don't blame the diaphragm material. That would be a design question.
True, some people don’t mind brightness, and brightness can easily be corrected by Audyssey or the built in avr eq with a small 2-3dB dip at 16khz.

I am not saying aluminum is incapable of extended response, I was only comparing the Klipsch diaphragms. Klipsch has had problems in the past with “harsh” treble, which appears on a graph as a peak near the top of their range followed by a nosedive, likely due to breakup. The icon/Reference series with Aluminum tweeters don’t suffer the same harshness compared to reference II models, the roll off above 16khz could very well be an intentional notch filter or something similar in the xover design to avoid the breakup issue and harshness associated with it. I have no idea what Klipsch did with their premier tweeters to eliminate the harshness due to breakup, but they extend very linearly to about 22khz and then nicely roll off in a behaved manner.

EDIT: Oddly enough, titanium and aluminum have similar breakup modes, Titanium is a bit stronger though, and therefore can be made much thinner than aluminum, pushing the breakup mode higher. Infinity’s CMMD paper goes into different materials a bit. http://support.infinitysystems.com/home/technology/whitepapers/cmmd.pdf


When it comes to metal diaphragms, they generally remain extremely pistonic throughout their operating range, but once they exceed that they breakup with with a vengeance, vs flexible materials like polypropylene, doped textile, or paper, which breaks up earlier but does it in a controlled way due to self damping.

Regarding metal diaphragms, I believe in order of extension before breakup, it’s:

Aluminum
Titanium
Ceramic coated aluminum, such as cerametallic or C.M.M.D diaphragms
And lastly, beryllium, which is generally stupidly expensive.

Come to think of it, considering Klipsch has been using cerametallic aluminum woofers for quite some time, I wonder why they haven’t applied this technology to their tweeters.

If you want a metal tweeter that is capable of achieving extremely linear pistonic behavior across the entire frequency range, beryllium is the way to go. They don’t start breaking up until 30khz or greater.




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