What’s the deal with speakers with horns?

panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
If you make a horn right it rivals any other speaker technology. JTR makes great horns now.
I've seen these referenced quite a bit around here. Never had the privilege to hear any though. I have to think there are some good horn designs out there, but I haven't heard all that many horn speakers that weren't PA speakers.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Steve, the Klipschorns were among the first pair of loudspeakers I had the privilege and pleasure to audition at a friends house, I sat in sheer disbelief and awe of what I was experiencing, I was speechless and didn't even care what music was being played, the source was a massive turntable which I was also in awe of it's appearance, I think it was 1972, I pursued the Klips sound for a long time and could never afford to replicate that day though, came fairly close. It's amazing how audio has changed from that era, for me anyway.
Cheers Jeff
Klipschorns woke me up to hi-fi audio too. I was at a dealer years ago (a great place called Simply Stereo), and they had a lot of nice speakers, higher end Revels and Paradigms, and they sounded nice, and they also had some Klipsch Reference and Heritage speakers too, Cornwalls, La Scalas, and Klipschorns. The Khorns just blew me away, they were so effortless and open compared to all the other speakers except for the La Scalas and Cornwalls. From the reading I have done since then, I guess they aren't perfect speakers (what can you expect from a design from the late 40s?), but they sure sounded great to my ears. I would love to have a pair of them or something like them some day. This is why those Pi speakers really have my attention, if they can keep the dynamics and open sound of the Klipsch Heritage while improving upon them in other respects, then those speakers would be real winners, especially seeing as how they cost quite a bit less than new heritage speakers. Btw, those Vittoria speakers look drop dead gorgeous, it looks like a Klipsch Heritage speaker with some actual high WAF.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Steve, not sure how far from you it is, but if you find yourself down in Charlotte, NC, go visit Panacea Engineering. I believe they have Khorns, and maybe even Jubilees, set up appropriately in good rooms.
It's about a 7 hour drive unfortunately. Funny enough, Jubilees are one example I've used to show my wife she doesn't have it so bad :D
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
WAF seems to be the biggest constraint on horns. They really make sense in a lot of home theater application, but the size is just not something I can get past.
 
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dnewma04

Enthusiast
Our ears are sensitive to early reflections. It's why most of us treat the first reflection points in our room with some absorption. The idea with avwaveguide, when properly implemented, is that they can significantly reduce the occurrence of early reflections and at the same time, promote the occurrence of useful later reflections. The latter help produce perceived space and ambience. The waveguides second advantage over a horn is that the sound is uniform off axis. Swerd mentioning that the sound was equally awful throughout the room ( :D ) was a sign the waveguide portion of it was working well. This does provide a distinct advantage to implementation over a traditional cone/dome setup in that acoustic treatment is far easier to accomplish effectively. With a cone dome with collapsing directivity, the late reflected sound will have a different sonic character and some people are more sensitive than others to that.

I am curious about Swerd's listening to the Abbey's. I have not heard that model, but have heard 2 sets of Summas and I found them to sound more like a small 2 way soft dome speaker than any horn I had heard. They were *very* smooth and very unlike things like Altecs/JBLs and Klipsch that I've heard. That said, I've also heard many people say that the Abbey is a very good performer, as well, so I don't think it's a matter of telling Swerd to go find some Summas. Particularly interesting is that he seems to have heard the traditional horn sound. My experience, which is probably biased by my utter fandom of dynamics since discovering them, with horns seems to mirror what Geddes proposes. Within horns, you have many reflections, all of them would be the "bad" early reflection you try to avoid in your rooms. He calls them Higher Order Modes or HOMs and the geometry of his horns were designed to minimize higher order modes as significantly as possible. The addition of the reticulated foam phase plugs goes a step further in reducing their significance. I went in with high expectations and came away satisfied with what I had heard. Perhaps I deluded myself :) into hearing something that was better than it was up front, but I didn't hear anything that made me dislike Altec 511s, Altec Multi-cell horns, smith horns, and others.

As far as coverage pattern goes, vertically, the Summas are a bit limited because of the large center to center spacing between the drivers, but even with the limitations, at 10-12', you'd need to be listening while laying on the floor or standing on a stool before you'd find yourself in a null from the driver interaction. They really work quite well in small rooms. The SEOS actually does a nicer job in this regard.

All that said, waveguides are not the only approach to uniform power response over a large area and I've heard other technologies work quite well. The large curved CBT arrays are really excellent options. Also, I routinely use multiple speaker types, so I'm by no means a horn/waveguide zealot of any sort. I have built probably 200 speakers in the last 20 years of various types and have no issue admitting that each speaker format can work tremendously. In my office at work, I use some tweaked Dennis Murphy designed MBOW1s and wouldn't be without them. At home, I routinely sub in dipoles, electrostatics, conventional speakers, etc, but my fiendish love for dynamics does have me often setting up waveguides or the Unity horns, I built. I have tried a number of other horns, but most drive me out of the room in short order.
 
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dnewma04

Enthusiast
It's about a 7 hour drive unfortunately. Funny enough, Jubilees are one example I've used to show my wife she doesn't have it so bad :D
I once picked up some speakers locally that were a gift to a local supplier of tooling from EV's top engineer/designer from the early 70s. They were about 35 cu ft using a 30" woofer, 2 12" midbass, a large mid horn and a biradial horn tweeter. I brought them into the living room when I first got them. My wife's reaction was classic. She walked in, gave me the look, walked back out without saying a word. It was clear they were not staying for more then the afternoon, but it was a fun time for a bit. They didn't sound very good (IMO), kind of like a Klipschorn on HGH but what it did allow is the sense that a 6-7 cu ft speaker seemed perfectly reasonable in comparison. :D
 
Rippyman

Rippyman

Audioholic
I love my Klipsch RF-7 II's, crisp clean sound, and what seems like unlimited headroom. What I find funny is the guys who always talk about real sound, or natural sound, and yet where do you hear music like that?

Music concerts, and Movies all use big horned speakers to bellow out the sound. I guess the only place you would get "real" sound would be an Orchestra or Opera. LOL

So what you experience at a Music Concert or the Movies would be reproduced well with a horn in your home as well.

Regardless of what we think the Artist was hoping to achieve in the recording studio, he/she never auditions it like that to the public. Its always amplified. So to me thats the real deal ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I love my Klipsch RF-7 II's, crisp clean sound, and what seems like unlimited headroom. What I find funny is the guys who always talk about real sound, or natural sound, and yet where do you hear music like that?

Music concerts, and Movies all use big horned speakers to bellow out the sound. I guess the only place you would get "real" sound would be an Orchestra or Opera. LOL

So what you experience at a Music Concert or the Movies would be reproduced well with a horn in your home as well.

Regardless of what we think the Artist was hoping to achieve in the recording studio, he/she never auditions it like that to the public. Its always amplified. So to me thats the real deal ;)
Unfortunately you have a point.

There are those of us who listen pretty much exclusively to unamplified music. It sounds really dreadful on most speakers on the market today. In my view it is threatening the survival of our orchestras. To reproduce an opera faithfully or the big romantic symphonic works and the pipe organ, requires good DIY skills or having a large speaker budget.

On the other hand it seems professional engineers and teachers seem very happy to check recordings and balances on this rig.

I really don't want my movies to sound like they do in the cinema, which I don't like.

I like natural voices and the expansive sound of the orchestra in say War Horse and hear the film score as it should sound. That is the sound of an unamplified orchestra.

To get back to this thread, I don't think you can do that driving a 15 cone up to 1 or 1.2 K. That means a bandwidth out to 2. to 2.5 kHz.

If you use a cone that large I maintain that fidelity requires crossing over to a much smaller drive unit at 350 to 400 Hz at least.

Compression drivers have improved a lot as has horn design, but I think under domestic conditions they are not worth the trouble, at least for the type of music I listen to.

I just can't stand any forward speakers that shout. By the way Audyssey makes good speakers sound forward and shout. I ca not recommend Audyssey for speaker equalization at all. It is an abomination.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
… Music concerts, and Movies all use big horned speakers to bellow out the sound. I guess the only place you would get "real" sound would be an Orchestra or Opera.
It is wrong to assume that the PA systems in movie theaters and concert halls sound the same in much smaller rooms in our homes. The seating distances and room dimensions are at least 10-fold greater in these venues, and that is the main reason why louder speakers with different dispersion qualities are required.
 
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Rippyman

Rippyman

Audioholic
Can you imagine watching a movie like The Avengers or Star Trek if it was live? LOL, it would sound horrible. It would be flat and boring, there is a reason for technology, its to enhance the experience. There is a reason why blockbuster movies make millions and even billions and live theater doesn't, haha.

Can you imagine watching Metallica or GNR without amplified sound? LOL, boring.

Can you imagine going to a nightclub and instead of a DJ mixing and pounding out the music so loud you can feel it, instead there was a live band playing an acoustic guitar, pongo drums, and a flute? LOL, hahahaha.

K I'm done.
 
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Rippyman

Rippyman

Audioholic
I'm just trying to wrap my head around the thought of TLS Guy listening to Metallica or GNR :p
Any band, The Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, CCR, Aerosmith, Led Zepplin, Queen. Dynamic sound for the win. You want natural flat boring sound, have your significant other sing to you...LOL
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Any band, The Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, CCR, Aerosmith, Led Zepplin, Queen. Dynamic sound for the win.
What can I say, I can appreciate a song like Yesterday by the Beatles as much as any of their amplified work.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Can you imagine watching a movie like The Avengers or Star Trek if it was live? LOL, it would sound horrible.
I can imagine that.

*Scrolls through AH on Tapatalk while walking Niki, looks up to see a raging battle between an enormous space monter and the Hulk.*

*Yawns.*

"That sounds horrible. I wonder if we can get a mic on that dude."

*Realizes that he's watching a raging battle between an enormous space monster and the Hulk.*

*S##ts himself.*
 
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dnewma04

Enthusiast
What’s the deal with speakers with horns?

It is wrong to assume that the PA systems in movie theaters and concert halls sound the same in much smaller rooms in our homes. The seating distances and room dimensions are at least 10-fold greater in these venues, and that is the main reason why louder speakers with different dispersion qualities are required.
Agreed, but equally important in the discussion is that it's wrong to assume that the designs for home are designed to be heard at a distance 10x the listening distance. The good ones are very much designed to have very wide and tall coverage patterns that other types of speakers can't.

An Altec 1505 would be a great example of an inappropriate horn for a home setting, although a small sect of people still like them.
 
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DS-21

Full Audioholic
I think the answer is much much simpler than you realize:

*** I talked about how good his amp (vacuum tubes) and speaker cables seemed ;). ***
I suspect the reason for your discontent is one of the following three things:
1) The crossovers were not properly assembled.
2) The owner, who seems based on your words to be of the "tweak" variety, decided that the commodity parts Dr. Geddes used for his crossover weren't sufficiently "High End," so s/he replaced them with boutique parts. And in the process failed to follow the design properly. Or given that "High End" caps, resistors, etc. often seem to be out-of-tolerance rejects hand-collected from the factory floor, perhaps the parts were far removed from Dr. Geddes' intended values that the end effect are defective crossover circuits.
3) Inferior amplification. You mentioned tubes, so one should naturally look low-fidelity output impedance by design, and/or the device being simply out of adjustment.

And there's also a possible 4: what are you used to? If your reference speaker is something with serious midrange polar errors (the aforementioned "midrange mushroom cloud" then there's simply a chance a high-fidelity loudspeaker won't sound right to you.

Also, to Drew's comments about the Gedlee speakers sounding like minimonitors, I believe Dr. Geddes once either conducted a blind test with his flagship Summa and an outstanding cone/dome speaker (Gradient Revolution), or contributed Summas to such a test. The Gradient uses an indifferent concentric midrange from Seas, but the overall design makes up for the deficiencies in that driver. (Seas concentric drivers are markedly inferior parts compared to the current KEF, Tannoy, and Pioneer/TAD units.) The end result was a statistical dead heat.

As an aside, I don't like most "horn" speakers I've heard, either. I'm not sure I like them better or worse than 7-inch 2-ways with tweeters on 180deg waveguides, but I couldn't leave with either one.
 
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Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
I think the answer is much much simpler than you realize:



I suspect the reason for your discontent is one of the following three things:
1) The crossovers were not properly assembled.
2) The owner, who seems based on your words to be of the "tweak" variety, decided that the commodity parts Dr. Geddes used for his crossover weren't sufficiently "High End," so s/he replaced them with boutique parts. And in the process failed to follow the design properly. Or given that "High End" caps, resistors, etc. often seem to be out-of-tolerance rejects hand-collected from the factory floor, perhaps the parts were far removed from Dr. Geddes' intended values that the end effect are defective crossover circuits.
3) Inferior amplification. You mentioned tubes, so one should naturally look low-fidelity output impedance by design, and/or the device being simply out of adjustment.

And there's also a possible 4: what are you used to? If your reference speaker is something with serious midrange polar errors (the aforementioned "midrange mushroom cloud" then there's simply a chance a high-fidelity loudspeaker won't sound right to you.

Also, to Drew's comments about the Gedlee speakers sounding like minimonitors, I believe Dr. Geddes once either conducted a blind test with his flagship Summa and an outstanding cone/dome speaker (Gradient Revolution), or contributed Summas to such a test. The Gradient uses an indifferent concentric midrange from Seas, but the overall design makes up for the deficiencies in that driver. (Seas concentric drivers are markedly inferior parts compared to the current KEF, Tannoy, and Pioneer/TAD units.) The end result was a statistical dead heat.

As an aside, I don't like most "horn" speakers I've heard, either. I'm not sure I like them better or worse than 7-inch 2-ways with tweeters on 180deg waveguides, but I couldn't leave with either one.
I'm familiar with the speakers Swerd heard, and the amplification through which he heard it. And you're wrong on all counts. All parts are stock, the crossover is correctly assembled, the amp is a reputable solid state unit, and they measure in spec, which means pretty good far off axis, not very good on axis. I just don't think the basic theory is correct. If there are problems with the on-axis response, you're going to hear it even if pains have been taken to control directivity, and even if you don't listen on axis. That said, I can see how some people might enjoy the resulting sound, particularly in home theater.
 
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