We review the $9,600 Legacy Audio Focus SE Speakers

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A 1 ohm test is not very useful.

That's why I said for "academic and amusement" purpose.

The 1-ohm torture test was done all the time by The Audio Critic back in the good old days. The ATI 60 Watts per Channel whole-house distribution amp was tested by The Audio Critic down to 1-ohm.

The Denon AVR-3000 series passed the 1-ohm test. Yet you keep on bad-mouthing AVR's power output - when a lowly Denon 3000-series AVR passed the 1-ohm torture test that many standalone separates Amps couldn't pass the 1-ohm test! I bet the Yamaha RX-A3080 and RX-A6 and RX-A8 would also pass the 1-ohm test.

I guess testing AVP/AMP to see that their THD+N is 0.0003% isn't that useful either. But it sure is fun to see.

 

[highfigh]

No, just my observation. Pretty much everyhome I go into has a sound bar, and the local big box stores like Target and Walmart are stacked with Sound Bars. AVRs in homes seem less common than they used to be by far.

US population of 334 million and you use the homes you enter to reach that conclusion? That's an awfully small sample.

Target and Walmart sell to the lowest level of consumers for electronics- I wouldn't use them as a barometer for this. I haven't spoken to anyone at either chain who had a clue, so sales are likely driven by the staff guiding customers to their own level of incompetence, training and comfort. While people who aren't knowledgeable about this stuff don't need to learn the fine details of a full-blown system, they do need to be informed properly about what works, what doesn't and the sales staff need to qualify the customers if the customers can expect good outcome and experience.

These chains train their sales staff to close sales, not to teach customers and go to great lengths to make them satisfied. The CS surveys don't ask if the products are satisfactory, they ask about the shopping experience and staff.

But that's what we get when people shop mainly on price and don't give a rat's patoot about supporting local dealers. Then, they go to the nearest AV forum to ask questions that have been answered a million times before.

 

[highfigh]

A 1 ohm test is not very useful. A speaker that has an impedance as low as 1 ohm at any point is a bad speaker with the crossover in resonance and not fit for use. I know some very expensive speakers do that, but they are not worth 2 cents.

In an active speaker an amp will never see a 1 ohm load or anything at all close to it.

Sure, it's useful- it indicates the robustness of power amplifier and power supply designs in equipment that doesn't have output transformers.

In practice, a 4 Ohm speaker's impedance dropping to ~2.5 Ohms is close enough to 1 Ohm for all practical purposes but if a manufacturer can drive a 1 Ohm load, their amplifier isn't going to have a problem with speakers that aren't designed by a wingnut who wants to be special. Would you buy an AVR or amplifier that requires speaker impedance of no less than 8 Ohms? I doubt it. The fact that you can design speakers aside, it's best to design amplifiers to be able to drive the loads they're likely to see and 'likely' means 'commonly available.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sure, it's useful- it indicates the robustness of power amplifier and power supply designs in equipment that doesn't have output transformers.

In practice, a 4 Ohm speaker's impedance dropping to ~2.5 Ohms is close enough to 1 Ohm for all practical purposes but if a manufacturer can drive a 1 Ohm load, their amplifier isn't going to have a problem with speakers that aren't designed by a wingnut who wants to be special. Would you buy an AVR or amplifier that requires speaker impedance of no less than 8 Ohms? I doubt it. The fact that you can design speakers aside, it's best to design amplifiers to be able to drive the loads they're likely to see and 'likely' means 'commonly available.

I think he just can't respond to the fact that a lowly Denon 3000-series AVR can pass the 1-ohm test with flying colors while many "separates" amps can't pass the 1-ohm test.

Since he thinks all AVRs (including Denon) are complete garbage, the 1-ohm test (the Denon AVR passing the 1-ohm test) isn't very useful for his argument.

I prefer that my amps can pass the 1-ohm test just like I prefer that my speakers can play extremely loud without distorting like crazy.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think he just can't respond to the fact that a lowly Denon 3000-series AVR can pass the 1-ohm test with flying colors while many "separates" amps can't pass the 1-ohm test.

Since he thinks all AVRs (including Denon) are complete garbage, the 1-ohm test (the Denon AVR passing the 1-ohm test) isn't very useful for his argument.

I prefer to know that my amps can pass the 1-ohm test just like I prefer to know that my speakers can play extremely loud without distorting like crazy.

It does not tell much that is useful. All it tells you is that it can survive driving a 1 ohm load for a short period of time.

It it suggests is that its protection might actually be inadequate. Since 1 ohm is an unreasonable load, it ought really to shut down, as a load like that won't do any amplifier any good.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It does not tell much that is useful. All it tells you is that it can survive driving a 1 ohm load for a short period of time.

It it suggests is that its protection might actually be inadequate. Since 1 ohm is an unreasonable load, it ought really to shut down, as a load like that won't do any amplifier any good.

The 1-ohm test is a more useful OBJECTIVE TEST than your SUBJECTIVE conjecture about what "might" or might not be.

IOW, I have a lot more faith in The Audio Critic's use of the PowerCube 1-ohm test than your guesses.

 

[TLS Guy]

The 1-ohm test is a more useful OBJECTIVE TEST than your SUBJECTIVE conjecture about what "might" or might not be.

It tells you minimal useful information, and I would not choose an amp based on a 1 ohm test alone, or may be at all.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It tells you minimal useful information, and I would not choose an amp based on a 1 ohm test alone, or may be at all.

So if you think the 1-ohm test is useless, then I assume you think the 2-ohm test is also useless?

 

[TLS Guy]

So if you think the 1-ohm test is useless, then I assume you think the 2-ohm test is also useless?

2 ohms is getting closer to what might be encountered with the incompetently designed speakers around these days. Speakers dropping below 3 ohms on the impedance curve are incompetently designed, no doubt about it.

The lowest impedance of any of my speakers is 3.8 ohms, and the impedance curves only briefly go into negative angles and by a few degrees only.

This I think is a big factor contributing to the long life of my amps.

 

[highfigh]

It does not tell much that is useful. All it tells you is that it can survive driving a 1 ohm load for a short period of time.

It it suggests is that its protection might actually be inadequate. Since 1 ohm is an unreasonable load, it ought really to shut down, as a load like that won't do any amplifier any good.

But, if the amplifier is designed to handle that load, it shouldn't harm it. Sure, eggs can be fried on top of it, but if the heat sinking is at least adequate or it has fans, what's the problem?

If you look into amplifiers and other electronics used for sirens in fire alarm systems, they're required to operate to the point of destruction in the event that the place is actually burning and in conduit, the speaker wire's insulation can melt, causing a short. Obviously, if the conductors are both shorting to the metallic conduit, the speakers won't receive anything, but the amplifier will survive- this kind of equipment is considered 'life safety', rather than the equipment we use, which is considered 'lifestyle' by the electronics industry.

I think it was more than ten years ago, but an extremely argumentative former AH member was here for a short time- he insisted that his way was the only way and had worked for companies that made life safety equipment.

While life safety durability isn't needed for our purposes, it sure makes amplifiers robust.

OTOH, even an arc welder has a specified duty cycle.

 

[prerich]

There is so much reactionary nonsense about active speakers. They promise the biggest quantum leap in domestic audio since speaker manufacturers paid attention to Thiele and Small's work.

It has the promise of massively improved transient response and a quantum leap in realistic reproduction if properly implemented.

As far as servicing, this could by made easy with a degree of chassis standardization. Then changing and amp would be removing four screws on the back of the speaker, pulling the amp out and unplugging two connectors. Then bring up the new amp and reverse the sequence above. Literally a few minutes.

Now look at replacing a power amp in these receivers people here are so fond of. It is next to impossible and seldom worth it. That is a disgrace in any event that people should have been screaming about for years.

I remember discussing this with Peter Walker before we even had AV units. He was just aghast at Asian manufacture, and correctly forecast a decrease in reliability and next to impossible serviceability. He was absolutely right and an apathetic public let it happen as they gushed over those shiny boxes with lots of knobs and buttons.

 

[prerich]

Replacing a power amp in a receiver....if it has pre-outs... there's no issue. Just buy an external amp.

 

[JerryLove]

Speakers dropping below 3 ohms on the impedance curve are incompetently designed, no doubt about it.

So, for example, the Bowers and Wilkins 801N speaker is incompetently designed?
Another example of an incompetently designed speaker is the Magnepan LRS?

 

[Trell]

So, for example, the Bowers and Wilkins 801N speaker is incompetently designed?
Another example of an incompetently designed speaker is the Magnepan LRS?

Sometimes when I see some high-end (expensive) passive speakers minimum impedance I do think the following accessories could be useful:

 

[Mikado463]

So, for example, the Bowers and Wilkins 801N speaker is incompetently designed?
Another example of an incompetently designed speaker is the Magnepan LRS?

and electrostatics, granted their imp curve is inverse that of dynamics and dips low only in the upper registers, but a less than 'ballsy' amp can induce high freq roll-off.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So, for example, the Bowers and Wilkins 801N speaker is incompetently designed?

The 801N has pretty good on-axis (+/-2.5dB) and off-axis responses. Minimum impedance of 3 ohms is in the bass regions, but a good quality amp like ATI will power just fine.

Of course, the other important factor is that the speakers sound great.

So if a speaker has good measurements and sounds good, I would say it is a good speaker.

 

[Epsonfan]

as soon as I get my free reparation money i would buy a pair.

 

[Trell]

as soon as I get my free reparation money i would buy a pair.

You’ll have to work for it dude as it ain’t free.