Wanting better 2-channel sound in my home theater setup

[TLS Guy]

I have just the Pre-pro for you!

The $799 Denon DN-700AVP Pre-pro has no EQ or DSP. No Audyssey, nothing.

Just Direct Mode and Discrete DTS-HD MA/DTS, Dolby TrueHD/DD/DD+.

http://denonpro.com/products/view3/dn-700avp

That looks like a really useful unit and very good value.

 

[lovinthehd]

Used to be able to rely on Yamaha, this A860 model seems to have issues in a couple ways. Looking at the power of the Emotiva vs Arcam the Emotiva should be fine, altho if the Yamaha can't provide a decent output for it....

 

[mistergsf]

I dont think the answer is in the electronics. Maybe time for better speakers?

Got my Dali's in 2009. I love my speakers; I consider them fully broken in and love their sound. Really? I should be looking at new speakers?

 

[lovinthehd]

Got my Dali's in 2009. I love my speakers; I consider them fully broken in and love their sound. Really? I should be looking at new speakers?

Tends to be the biggest contributor to what you hear, as well as your room. Electronics aren't all that much part of it IMO unless perhaps you're amplification isn't sufficient for your needs or something along those lines. I'm a little confused on how you love your speakers' sound....but don't at the same time. Hard to know over the internet

ps Reread the thread some just now, forgot you were the one with the suspect Yamaha, and perhaps a mismatch on the Emotiva for the pre-outs on the Yamaha. Dali's are that touchy about what amp they're used with perhaps....

 

[mistergsf]

I bet it is the electronics.

Do you have any auto Eq involved? You absolutely need to make sure you never use auto Eq programs.

I personally am always highly suspicious of receivers. I use separates and use Marantz, I have no Sq complaint and they measure well.

The next thing is that amps are not created equal. I have no experience using EMO amps in the home, However like a lot of power amps, they are stuffed with components and over complicated. Amps with low component counts sound the best as a rule. I know I would never purchase an EMO amp. The Arcam on the other hand is a nice little British integrated of the type that have always been justly loved. I personally use Quad amps for power amplification which have really elegant design and not a load if circuits to correct a bunch of faults in the fundamental design.

You have already shown your problem to be in the Yami, EMO or both.

I've been sick for a week and just returning to my thread; such great responses that I'll start answering now.

Thanks, TLS Guy. I've always felt it's my Yammy AVR + Emotiva Amp causing the my dislike of 2-channel listening. The reason I posted is because it's driving me crazy and I trust my hearing enough to know that there is a problem.

I love the Yamaha; my movies sound great and I like it's features. When the A-860 was reviewed here and they noted that it was lacking power, I added the Emotiva thinking it would improve my stereo listening. It hasn't. For 2-channel listening, I turn off all EQ; I like to listen to everything flat. I rarely have to fool with tone controls.

Earlier, I mentioned that I hooked up my Arcam A19 Intergrated and I immediately heard what I had been missing. Mind you, the A19 is only 50 watts and the Dali's are 6 Ohm. Speakers sounded clear/pristine, very warm. Proves to me my speakers are NOT the problem here.

Love the photos of your Studio!!!

 

[mistergsf]

LOL you're not going to convince me that the magic is in a pre-pro from the same company my avr is made by, let alone the magic brit "current dumping" amps. He's got solid gear, the amp section in the Yamaha he's already bypassing, so probably the electronics are a minor part here. Would be nice to know more about the settings he uses for 2ch music vs his movie/tv watching.

Thanks, lovinthehd. FWIW, I love my Yamaha AVR too. It's serves its purpose well and watching movies are a joy. I only use "Straight" 2-channels when listening to vinyl and CDs. All EQ settings are off. When playing BD 4K movies, it's whatever the source is putting out; I make no changes to EQ/sound settings at all.

 

[mistergsf]

If you are using the "Straight" mode then you are using, YPAO, the crossovers and hence the Rel. If you want the crossovers bypassed and no sub then either select the Pure Direct mode or setup a Scene if that is an option on the A860.

Straight mode is where DD or DD True HD or Atmos run through without alteration. The same applies for DTS and PCM. It just means it won't covert a normal DD signal to effective an upsampled Atmos or DTS Neural X.

Good point, Bookmark. I will double-check/confirm that tonight. I'm pretty sure I had "Pure Direct" turned on as I always did that with my previous Onkyo AVR.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks, lovinthehd. FWIW, I love my Yamaha AVR too. It's serves its purpose well and watching movies are a joy. I only use "Straight" 2-channels when listening to vinyl and CDs. All EQ settings are off. When playing BD 4K movies, it's whatever the source is putting out; I make no changes to EQ/sound settings at all.

Not familiar with the Yamaha mode lingo particularly. Why do you listen in straight mode if you don't care for the sound? Maybe it is some eq you need to be happier with your current setup? Or is it markedly worse that way? I have no issues using eq when listening to old 2ch stuff....

 

[mistergsf]

????? you just contradicted yourself, so what is it ??

Let me clarify, I believe I mentioned previously that I have another room in my house that was regulated for 2-channel listening with my turntable but it's a smaller room. But, I really missed rocking out with my floor standing speakers in the living room. Before I made the living room my permanent home theater, I was listening 2-channel there also before getting a new AVR 5.1. Speakers are in same position, never moved them. Thus, "same room, same speaker position".

 

[mistergsf]

Not familiar with the Yamaha mode lingo particularly. Why do you listen in straight mode if you don't care for the sound? Maybe it is some eq you need to be happier with your current setup? Or is it markedly worse that way? I have no issues using eq when listening to old 2ch stuff....

Another poster mentioned I should turn on Pure Direct mode, which I believe I have been but I'll confirm tonight. I very rarely ever need to play with tone controls on my amps even when listening to my older stuff. To be clear, I'm not satisfied with SQ with/without adjustments.

I should have mentioned this earlier in describing what the difference in SQ are. In my HT, when I'm listening to stereo, music sounds like I'm listening to a compressed digital audio file. That's how I can best describe it. It sounds clear but confined and absent of any warmth and depth.

 

[lovinthehd]

Another poster mentioned I should turn on Pure Direct mode, which I believe I have been but I'll confirm tonight. I very rarely ever need to play with tone controls on my amps even when listening to my older stuff. To be clear, I'm not satisfied with SQ with/without adjustments.

I should have mentioned this earlier in describing what the difference in SQ are. In my HT, when I'm listening to stereo, music sounds like I'm listening to a compressed digital audio file. That's how I can best describe it. It sounds clear but confined and absent of any warmth and depth.

That's where I get lost with Yamaha lingo. Straight vs direct vs pure direct etc. Maybe you're a candidate for putting that integrated amp in just for your two ch listening with some sort of HT bypass mode? Do you use YPAO volume at all?

 

[mistergsf]

Yes, I should have remembered that. On the whole Yamaha gear has low output from there preouts with zero head room.

This is definitely the electronics as his integrated amp solves the issue. The answer lies in these type of issues and whether he really is using his preamps section straight with no Eq.

Even with my Marantz units, I have to lock them down tight to stop Audyssey functions bubbling up and causing mayhem.

There really is a need for receivers and pre pros that really are essentially just wire with gain, and not mucking about with the frequency spectrum.

I can tell you one thing, if there were more higher caliber speakers around, people would be abandoning all this auto Eq nonsense in drives. There is just far to much unwanted, not needed, quality spoiling complexity in current AV gear. Simplify, simplify should be the mantra and we would all be better off.

TLS Guy, thank you for this. Low output from the preouts makes sense.

 

[mistergsf]

That's where I get lost with Yamaha lingo. Straight vs direct vs pure direct etc. Maybe you're a candidate for putting that integrated amp in just for your two ch listening with some sort of HT bypass mode? Do you use YPAO volume at all?

Another thing to check tonight, YPAO Volume. Thanks.

I just might have to find an integrated amp with an HT bypass feature. Sadly, I don't think my Arcam A19 has that feature.

Thanks, guys. I really appreciate the feedback. Really helps!

 

[mistergsf]

That looks like a really useful unit and very good value.

Hmmm. Never seen this model before. Thank you. I'll take a look see.

 

[mistergsf]

Tends to be the biggest contributor to what you hear, as well as your room. Electronics aren't all that much part of it IMO unless perhaps you're amplification isn't sufficient for your needs or something along those lines. I'm a little confused on how you love your speakers' sound....but don't at the same time. Hard to know over the internet

ps Reread the thread some just now, forgot you were the one with the suspect Yamaha, and perhaps a mismatch on the Emotiva for the pre-outs on the Yamaha. Dali's are that touchy about what amp they're used with perhaps....

I had some bad experience with A860 alone. Was getting noticable distortion in all channel stereo (yes, i like this mode) during some demanding songs and movies. But with the Anthem mca 525 amp which has the gain 29db it worked fine, no complains. Preouts where not an issue. I finally replaced a860 with a1070 but did not get any significant improvement. My case is slightly different as i dont have a phono.

Thank you for this. Still some good info here.

 

[PENG]

Let me clarify, I believe I mentioned previously that I have another room in my house that was regulated for 2-channel listening with my turntable but it's a smaller room. But, I really missed rocking out with my floor standing speakers in the living room. Before I made the living room my permanent home theater, I was listening 2-channel there also before getting a new AVR 5.1. Speakers are in same position, never moved them. Thus, "same room, same speaker position".

Thank you for clarifying the same room same speaker position thing. The interesting thing is, if the 90 W (4 ohm) A19 could rock you Dali, how come the RX-A860 cannot? For stereo, that is, two channel driven, the Yamaha's output into 4 ohm should be comparable, may be a little less but not by much. There may be something wrong other than a power output related issue. You are also going by memory, not an apple to apple comparison so that could also be a factor.

Is your Dali Ikon 7 Mk1 or Mk2? I am not surprised they are not easy for the A860, but again you said the little A19 could rock them so maybe your room isn't that big or you were sitting pretty close. The A19 cannot deliver any more than 90 W into 4 ohms, less if two channel driven simultaneously. If "rock" means transparency, low distortion, nice overall sound quality then okay that's a different story.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you for clarifying the same room same speaker position thing. The interesting thing is, if the 90 W (4 ohm) A19 could rock you Dali, how come the RX-A860 cannot? For stereo, that is, two channel driven, the Yamaha's output into 4 ohm should be comparable, may be a little less but not by much. There may be something wrong other than a power output related issue. You are also going by memory, not an apple to apple comparison so that could also be a factor.

Is your Dali Ikon 7 Mk1 or Mk2? I am not surprised they are not easy for the A860, but again you said the little A19 could rock them so maybe your room isn't that big or you were sitting pretty close. The A19 cannot deliver any more than 90 W into 4 ohms, less if two channel driven simultaneously. If "rock" means transparency, low distortion, nice overall sound quality then okay that's a different story.

Let alone the Emotiva amp he's actually using instead of the Yamaha avr....altho he may not be driving the amp fully?

 

[mistergsf]

Thank you for clarifying the same room same speaker position thing. The interesting thing is, if the 90 W (4 ohm) A19 could rock you Dali, how come the RX-A860 cannot? For stereo, that is, two channel driven, the Yamaha's output into 4 ohm should be comparable, may be a little less but not by much. There may be something wrong other than a power output related issue. You are also going by memory, not an apple to apple comparison so that could also be a factor.

Is your Dali Ikon 7 Mk1 or Mk2? I am not surprised they are not easy for the A860, but again you said the little A19 could rock them so maybe your room isn't that big or you were sitting pretty close. The A19 cannot deliver any more than 90 W into 4 ohms, less if two channel driven simultaneously. If "rock" means transparency, low distortion, nice overall sound quality then okay that's a different story.

My Ikons are Mk1. And "rock" = transparency, low distortion, nice overall sound quality. Thanks!

 

[mistergsf]

Let alone the Emotiva amp he's actually using instead of the Yamaha avr....altho he may not be driving the amp fully?

Does the low output of the Yamaha preouts limit my search for another amp to test/demo? What spec should I be looking at/aware of?

 

[lovinthehd]

Have you in this recent switching around tried cutting the Emotiva out of the picture and just using the Yamaha alone?