Wanting better 2-channel sound in my home theater setup

[mistergsf]

I currently have a 5.1 home theater setup in my living room that I'm very satisfied with. I have a Yamaha Aventage A860 AVR powering the center, surrounds, and sub. I've paired it with an Emotiva BasX-A500 amp which is powering my front floor-standers. It sounds great when I'm watching 4K movies with my Oppo UDP-203 or streaming content from my Apple TV 4K.

However, I also have a turntable and listen to vinyl in addition to my CDs. I'm just not very happy or content with the audio quality when listening in 2-channel stereo. It's good but not great considering I know my speakers have sounded much better before they were part of my home theater. I bought the Emotiva amp thinking that it would help improve audio quality having them power my main speakers separately but honestly, it still sounds the same.

Looking for some suggestions, tips, and guidance moving forward in my quest for improvement. Thanks!

My Gear:
LG OLED65B6P
Yamaha Aventage A-860
Emotiva BasX A-500
Oppo UDP-203
Apple TV 4K
Technics SL-1210GR w/Ortofon Bronze
Cambridge Audio CP2 Phono Stage
Dali IKON 7 floor standing speakers (front L/R)
Dali IKON Vokal 2 (center)
Dali IKON 2 (surrounds L/R)

 

[everettT]

How are you listening to 2ch music? Sound modes? With sub, which i dont see listed?

 

[mistergsf]

How are you listening to 2ch music? Sound modes? With sub, which i dont see listed?

Sorry, forgot the sub cause it's relatively new. I have an REL T5i subwoofer.

I use a separate phono stage for my turntable rather than the one on the AVR. The phono stage is connected to a analog line level input on AVR (Audio 1) and set to play "Straight" mode. No sub.


My Gear:
LG OLED65B6P
Yamaha Aventage A-860
Emotiva BasX A-500
Oppo UDP-203
Apple TV 4K
Technics SL-1210GR w/Ortofon Bronze
Cambridge Audio CP2 Phono Stage
Dali IKON 7 floor standing speakers (front L/R)
Dali IKON Vokal 2 (center)
Dali IKON 2 (surrounds L/R)
REL T5i Subwoofer

 

[lovinthehd]

Since you liked the speakers before they were part of your home theater, I'm wondering is this a different room? Perhaps positioning of the L/R speakers?

 

[mistergsf]

Since you liked the speakers before they were part of your home theater, I'm wondering is this a different room? Perhaps positioning of the L/R speakers?

Great question. Same room, same position. I use to only do my 2-channel listening in another room but it's small and I missed rocking out and blasting my big speakers. Last week, I took the amp from my other room, an Arcam A19, and connected the big speakers to it and used the onboard phono amp. That little amp pushed those speakers with ease. It sounded so pristine and quiet and really moved the bass. It was awesome. Maybe I should audition other amps besides the Emotiva to start.

 

[lovinthehd]

...or go back to listening to 2ch in a smaller room?

 

[mistergsf]

...or go back to listening to 2ch in a smaller room?

LOL. That's too easy. If I have to, I'll keep a separate integrated amp in the media cabinet and switch it up when needed. A bit of a pain though. I hope there's nothing wrong in my setup. It just may be the amp pairing is what's wrong here. Sometimes, it just helps to start a thread on an issue. Getting feedback can clarify things and look at reality.

 

[lovinthehd]

I dont think the answer is in the electronics. Maybe time for better speakers?

 

[TLS Guy]

I dont think the answer is in the electronics. Maybe time for better speakers?

I bet it is the electronics.

Do you have any auto Eq involved? You absolutely need to make sure you never use auto Eq programs.

I personally am always highly suspicious of receivers. I use separates and use Marantz, I have no Sq complaint and they measure well.

The next thing is that amps are not created equal. I have no experience using EMO amps in the home, However like a lot of power amps, they are stuffed with components and over complicated. Amps with low component counts sound the best as a rule. I know I would never purchase an EMO amp. The Arcam on the other hand is a nice little British integrated of the type that have always been justly loved. I personally use Quad amps for power amplification which have really elegant design and not a load if circuits to correct a bunch of faults in the fundamental design.

You have already shown your problem to be in the Yami, EMO or both.

 

[lovinthehd]

I bet it is the electronics.

Do you have any auto Eq involved? You absolutely need to make sure you never use auto Eq programs.

I personally am always highly suspicious of receivers. I use separates and use Marantz, I have no Sq complaint and they measure well.

The next thing is that amps are not created equal. I have no experience using EMO amps in the home, However like a lot of power amps, they are stuffed with components and over complicated. Amps with low component counts sound the best as a rule. I know I would never purchase an EMO amp. The Arcam on the other hand is a nice little British integrated of the type that have always been justly loved. I personally use Quad amps for power amplification which have really elegant design and not a load if circuits to correct a bunch of faults in the fundamental design.

You have already shown your problem to be in the Yami, EMO or both.

LOL you're not going to convince me that the magic is in a pre-pro from the same company my avr is made by, let alone the magic brit "current dumping" amps. He's got solid gear, the amp section in the Yamaha he's already bypassing, so probably the electronics are a minor part here. Would be nice to know more about the settings he uses for 2ch music vs his movie/tv watching.

 

[Bookmark]

If you are using the "Straight" mode then you are using, YPAO, the crossovers and hence the Rel. If you want the crossovers bypassed and no sub then either select the Pure Direct mode or setup a Scene if that is an option on the A860.

Straight mode is where DD or DD True HD or Atmos run through without alteration. The same applies for DTS and PCM. It just means it won't covert a normal DD signal to effective an upsampled Atmos or DTS Neural X.

 

[everettT]

When Gene measured the output of the 860 at 1.6Rvms it was producing high distortion. I suspect that could be the issue. The emotiva needs 1.7 to drive it at it's full rated power. While the Yamaha can output 1.7 it cant without audible distortion. He had to bring it down to 1Rvms before the sweep looked good.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

 

[TLS Guy]

When Gene measured the output of the 860 at 1.6Rvms it was producing high distortion. I suspect that could be the issue. The emotiva needs 1.7 to drive it at it's full rated power. While the Yamaha can output 1.7 it cant without audible distortion. He had to bring it down to 1Rvms before the sweep looked good.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

Yes, I should have remembered that. On the whole Yamaha gear has low output from there preouts with zero head room.

This is definitely the electronics as his integrated amp solves the issue. The answer lies in these type of issues and whether he really is using his preamps section straight with no Eq.

Even with my Marantz units, I have to lock them down tight to stop Audyssey functions bubbling up and causing mayhem.

There really is a need for receivers and pre pros that really are essentially just wire with gain, and not mucking about with the frequency spectrum.

I can tell you one thing, if there were more higher caliber speakers around, people would be abandoning all this auto Eq nonsense in drives. There is just far to much unwanted, not needed, quality spoiling complexity in current AV gear. Simplify, simplify should be the mantra and we would all be better off.

 

[PENG]

Yes, I should have remembered that. On the whole Yamaha gear has low output from there preouts with zero head room.

This is definitely the electronics as his integrated amp solves the issue. The answer lies in these type of issues and whether he really is using his preamps section straight with no Eq.

Even with my Marantz units, I have to lock them down tight to stop Audyssey functions bubbling up and causing mayhem.

There really is a need for receivers and pre pros that really are essentially just wire with gain, and not mucking about with the frequency spectrum.

I can tell you one thing, if there were more higher caliber speakers around, people would be abandoning all this auto Eq nonsense in drives. There is just far to much unwanted, not needed, quality spoiling complexity in current AV gear. Simplify, simplify should be the mantra and we would all be better off.

As usual, I always end up disagreeing with you on the REQ thing. I trust those PhD's who did the REQ R&D and implementation and those who reviewed them know what they are doing. You have some bad experience with Audyssey XT, but that does not mean everyone who uses Anthem ARC, Audyssey XT32, RoomPerfect, Dirac, Trinnov etc., share the same kind of bad experience.

Back to the electronics, I do agree with you the Arcam integrated amp could do a much better job. I would just add that the OP's trouble may not be just the RX-A860 preouts being too low for a perfectly clean signal. It could also be the external phono stage he's using. The Arcam most likely have a better quality phono stage.

 

[snakeeyes]

When Gene measured the output of the 860 at 1.6Rvms it was producing high distortion. I suspect that could be the issue. The emotiva needs 1.7 to drive it at it's full rated power. While the Yamaha can output 1.7 it cant without audible distortion. He had to bring it down to 1Rvms before the sweep looked good.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

So did the 1060 or 2060 or 3060 end up at 2.0 and work with emotiva ok for people? The thread linked doesn’t say. If not, what did they measure at? I have the 2060 in 5.1 but I likely would be looking at Outlaw 5000 only if driving 9 channels becomes an issue or if I just am curious about adding an amp. Going to try out 5.1.4 later this year.
As far as for this thread, what amp would work well with his 860? Probably similar issues on 781 if people have that one too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When Gene measured the output of the 860 at 1.6Rvms it was producing high distortion. I suspect that could be the issue. The emotiva needs 1.7 to drive it at it's full rated power. While the Yamaha can output 1.7 it cant without audible distortion. He had to bring it down to 1Rvms before the sweep looked good.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

"At 1Vrms, the output looks much cleaner. If you're planning on using external amplification with the RX-A860, look for a power amplifier with a relatively high voltage gain (29dB or greater) so that it can achieve full rated power below where the preamp outputs of the RX-A860 starts clipping. For example, a 200-watt amplifier with a voltage gain of 29dB will reach its rated power at around 1.4Vrms."

The EMO A500 is 80W x 5Ch, 29dB Gain.

https://emotiva.com/collections/amps/products/a-500

 

[everettT]

So did the 1060 or 2060 or 3060 end up at 2.0 and work with emotiva ok for people? The thread linked doesn’t say. If not, what did they measure at? I have the 2060 in 5.1 but I likely would be looking at Outlaw 5000 only if driving 9 channels becomes an issue or if I just am curious about adding an amp. Going to try out 5.1.4 later this year.
As far as for this thread, what amp would work well with his 860? Probably similar issues on 781 if people have that one too.

IIRC model 1xxx and above were fine.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Even with my Marantz units, I have to lock them down tight to stop Audyssey functions bubbling up and causing mayhem.

There really is a need for receivers and pre pros that really are essentially just wire with gain, and not mucking about with the frequency spectrum.

I have just the Pre-pro for you!

The $799 Denon DN-700AVP Pre-pro has no EQ or DSP. No Audyssey, nothing.

Just Direct Mode and Discrete DTS-HD MA/DTS, Dolby TrueHD/DD/DD+.

http://denonpro.com/products/view3/dn-700avp

 

[Mikado463]

Great question. Same room, same position. I use to only do my 2-channel listening in another room

????? you just contradicted yourself, so what is it ??

 

[Andrein]

I had some bad experience with A860 alone. Was getting noticable distortion in all channel stereo (yes, i like this mode) during some demanding songs and movies. But with the Anthem mca 525 amp which has the gain 29db it worked fine, no complains. Preouts where not an issue. I finally replaced a860 with a1070 but did not get any significant improvement. My case is slightly different as i dont have a phono.