Pedro Alvarado

Pedro Alvarado

Full Audioholic
i consider this site to be a group of thinkers.
just curious where this will go.
i want to understand this waf thing.

 
W

WookieGR

Audioholic
WAF is the result of men marrying the wrong women. I have had very little to no issues doing the things I want since she is into the same stuff and we decide these things together. She was angry when I pulled the towers and subs from the living room and put them into the basement. The wrong women would have been relieved to see them go and not insist on replacing them.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
i consider this site to be a group of thinkers.
just curious where this will go.
i want to understand this waf thing.

Do you have a significant other (wife, spouse, partner, or other)?
If no... move along, there is nothing to see here.
If yes, is that person allowed to disagree with you?
If yes, do you consider them in your decision making?
If still yes, do you get to disagree with them, and does that person consider you in their decisions?
If yes to the first and no to either of the latter... do you verbally or physically abuse them so that they submit to your will? (Or, are they scared of you?)
If yes to the first and second, but no to the third... do you get verbally or physically abused by them so that you submit to their will? (Or, are you scared of them?)

:D

Somewhere in there lies WAF/SAF/SOAF... or whatever you want to call it. :)
 
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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
WAF is the result of men marrying the wrong women. I have had very little to no issues doing the things I want since she is into the same stuff and we decide these things together. She was angry when I pulled the towers and subs from the living room and put them into the basement. The wrong women would have been relieved to see them go and not insist on replacing them.
While I agree finding a partner with shared values and interests is important, they will not always all align as one may hope. While still being a potentially excellent match, what if your partner likes ELAC, but you prefer Klipsch? (Or vice versa?) :p
That said, good on you for finding a partner that was pissed 'cos you took the Speakers away. :D

That said, did she beat you because of it? ;)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
i consider this site to be a group of thinkers.
just curious where this will go.
i want to understand this waf thing.

If Mama ain't happy, nobody's happy.

Does that help?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
i consider this site to be a group of thinkers.
just curious where this will go.
i want to understand this waf thing.

WAF is avoiding the wrath of your wife, to avoid this: - "If you place those honking great speakers there, and the two boxes over by the couch, you had better find another place to live".

It is a genuine problem, and they have a point. Most of the installations we crave, really are in effect quite ugly. Modern gear just is not designed with aesthetics as a priority, and that is all of it.

I'm old enough to remember a time, when it was. It was the rush to all this Far Eastern manufacture that sent WAF to the basement.

Most manufacturers made electronics that could be panel mounted in beautiful furniture, with power amps totally out of site. Most speakers have always been a problem to greater or lesser degree.

The biggest factor is that all homes are different, and so customization is required in most situations which is getting increasingly difficult.

Unfortunately the restrictions imposed by multichannel speaker placement have exacerbated this problem to new heights.

If possible a room dedicated to AV multichannel is a huge advantage. I realize that this is not possible for many. I remain convinced that unsuitable rooms would be far better off with 2.1 or 3.1 systems. My two non dedicated rooms, with a 2.1 and 3.1 really do perform very well. Trying to shoe in multichannel in either of those spaces I can be certain would be a massive downgrade. People who pursue this hobby reallly need to believe that less is so often more in this hobby.

Lastly getting buy in from ones wife, is vital. If you have the fortune of a dedicated room, unless it is a cluttered mess you wife will enjoy it, especially if is a space family and friends can enjoy.

If you do it right you wife will get used to good sound, and after visiting friends homes, will say, thinks like I could not put up with that sound.

If you wife gives you an order for a system and her aesthetic requirements, if you have the skill, build her a system of her dreams. Make this an excuse to use your design skills and constructional chops.

This system was designed under direct orders from my wife. She wanted a system for a main living area. There were to be no boxes or equipment actually in the room.
It all had to be flush. It had to be a good system and sound excellent. It had to have good internet and cable connectivity, and play discs, including those outside region 1.


So that certainly was a major challenge.

However, to say she is over the moon with this system is an understatement. This system has a WAF 10/10 rating +++.

Then I get to have free hand with the AV room, which she also gets to enjoy.

I won't deny that achieving high WAF is a difficult challenge, but also not unreasonable. There is a lot manufacturers could do, to make the task much easier.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
WAF is avoiding the wrath of your wife, to avoid this: - "If you place those honking great speakers there, and the two boxes over by the couch, you had better find another place to live".

It is a genuine problem, and they have a point. Most of the installations we crave, really are in effect quite ugly. Modern gear just is not designed with aesthetics as a priority, and that is all of it.

I'm old enough to remember a time, when it was. It was the rush to all this Far Eastern manufacture that sent WAF to the basement.

Most manufacturers made electronics that could be panel mounted in beautiful furniture, with power amps totally out of site. Most speakers have always been a problem to greater or lesser degree.

The biggest factor is that all homes are different, and so customization is required in most situations which is getting increasingly difficult.

Unfortunately the restrictions imposed by multichannel speaker placement have exacerbated this problem to new heights.

If possible a room dedicated to AV multichannel is a huge advantage. I realize that this is not possible for many. I remain convinced that unsuitable rooms would be far better off with 2.1 or 3.1 systems. My two non dedicated rooms, with a 2.1 and 3.1 really do perform very well. Trying to shoe in multichannel in either of those spaces I can be certain would be a massive downgrade. People who pursue this hobby reallly need to believe that less is so often more in this hobby.

Lastly getting buy in from ones wife, is vital. If you have the fortune of a dedicated room, unless it is a cluttered mess you wife will enjoy it, especially if is a space family and friends can enjoy.

If you do it right you wife will get used to good sound, and after visiting friends homes, will say, thinks like I could not put up with that sound.

If you wife gives you an order for a system and her aesthetic requirements, if you have the skill, build her a system of her dreams. Make this an excuse to use your design skills and constructional chops.

This system was designed under direct orders from my wife. She wanted a system for a main living area. There were to be no boxes or equipment actually in the room.
It all had to be flush. It had to be a good system and sound excellent. It had to have good internet and cable connectivity, and play discs, including those outside region 1.


So that certainly was a major challenge.

However, to say she is over the moon with this system is an understatement. This system has a WAF 10/10 rating +++.

Then I get to have free hand with the AV room, which she also gets to enjoy.

I won't deny that achieving high WAF is a difficult challenge, but also not unreasonable. There is a lot manufacturers could do, to make the task much easier.
In light of the fact that most WAF concerns the look of speakers, I'm actually surprised your wife is OK with black grills.

I worked on a house for a woman who was a previous client (I did her previous home in 2003) and we had discussed speaker placements before the interior detonator came into the picture. The day I went back to discuss more details, the designer was there and we met in the master Bath, which was still in the rough-in phase. The homeowner mentioned the bathroom's speakers and designer girl opened her mouth to say that she didn't want to see any speakers, but I immediately said "I can get speakers that look like ceiling lights". She asked how I knew what she was going to say and I replied "I know where you used to work". She had worked for a well-known local designer who would meet with clients, come up with a design in great detail and rather than ask how much it would cost, they would ask, "When can you start?". The cost was immaterial. Apparently, designer girl thought she was responsible for the firm's success, but that's not actually the case, even though she has a good business. Still, she comes up with some ideas and items that are ridiculously expensive and even wealthy clients ask if she's insane.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
WAF is the result of men marrying the wrong women. I have had very little to no issues doing the things I want since she is into the same stuff and we decide these things together. She was angry when I pulled the towers and subs from the living room and put them into the basement. The wrong women would have been relieved to see them go and not insist on replacing them.
Hah! I used to believe this.

The ex-wife was quite tolerant of intrusively large speakers. She was quite intolerant of ME. So, no, the WAF test is unreliable.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
In light of the fact that most WAF concerns the look of speakers, I'm actually surprised your wife is OK with black grills.

I worked on a house for a woman who was a previous client (I did her previous home in 2003) and we had discussed speaker placements before the interior detonator came into the picture. The day I went back to discuss more details, the designer was there and we met in the master Bath, which was still in the rough-in phase. The homeowner mentioned the bathroom's speakers and designer girl opened her mouth to say that she didn't want to see any speakers, but I immediately said "I can get speakers that look like ceiling lights". She asked how I knew what she was going to say and I replied "I know where you used to work". She had worked for a well-known local designer who would meet with clients, come up with a design in great detail and rather than ask how much it would cost, they would ask, "When can you start?". The cost was immaterial. Apparently, designer girl thought she was responsible for the firm's success, but that's not actually the case, even though she has a good business. Still, she comes up with some ideas and items that are ridiculously expensive and even wealthy clients ask if she's insane.
We had consultations on that with my wife and eldest daughter. She is a certified architect and interior designer, but is now a VP in the web department for Wells Fargo, as a web page designer. A lot of architects end up that route, as pay for architects is lousy.

Anyhow my wife and I were inclined to paint the speaker fret to match the walls. My daughter vetoed that right away. She said the speakers grills should be as close a color to the TV when off as possible. On reflection, if you are in the room, this is correct. I can see that in the photographs, it seems a little strange, but in the room it looks absolutely correct.

What would others have done? I found this a difficult decision.

As far as the metal frames, she advised I have the speaker frames match the TV Bessel as far as possible, and the frames of the in wall equipment cases march the color of the cabinetry. I honestly think my daughter gave the correct advice, and her credentials certainly ace mine.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
We had consultations on that with my wife and eldest daughter. She is a certified architect and interior designer, but is now a VP in the web department for Wells Fargo, as a web page designer. A lot of architects end up that route, as pay for architects is lousy.

Anyhow my wife and I were inclined to paint the speaker fret to match the walls. My daughter vetoed that right away. She said the speakers grills should be as close a color to the TV when off as possible. On reflection, if you are in the room, this is correct. I can see that in the photographs, it seems a little strange, but in the room it looks absolutely correct.

What would others have done? I found this a difficult decision.

As far as the metal frames, she advised I have the speaker frames match the TV Bessel as far as possible, and the frames of the in wall equipment cases march the color of the cabinetry. I honestly think my daughter gave the correct advice, and her credentials certainly ace mine.
I studied architecture and started working at a stereo store while I was in school- one of the reasons I decided that I didn't want to be an archi was the pay- as bad as the pay was at the store, I still made more than the starting pay for what I was studying, although one guy who finished with a 3.96GPA started at Harnischfeger (Heavy industry like cranes and mining equipment, their logo was PH) designing crane booms at about $26K/year when architects were starting at about $12K.

The thing about architects- they start out wanting to be one thing and end up doing something different, even if they're still 'an architect'. Many want to design homes, but designers are like ants- they're very common, with few coming up with really great designs and innovations. Sometimes, it takes a major event that affects someone they know or a family member to get them to shift to another area, like 'aging in place', possibly after someone is injured or has a stroke. Some become project architects, like one of my friends, and they end up not doing design work- they're more admin than anything else but they need to know how all of the systems integrate as well as the engineering behind the construction of the buildings, the civil engineering, etc. Others start as designers and move up to head a design department or as another friend of ours, head the architectural design services department. Others move to whatever pays best, even if they aren't in their field which is great, but can be difficult to handle if they had high ideals for their future.

The last part is where kids need to be counceled and made ready for the real world when they're in school, before college- the world changes in four or more years and demand for job positions when they start may not exist when they finish, but some of the most important things they learn in college are in how to analyze situations, look for solutions and, if they were in some areas of study, how to find answers about how things work.

In many of the homes where I work, the designer/detonator wants the grills and frames to match the wall color and if the walls have been papered, that is applied and the holes are pierced. When painting, they're either sprayed or 'dry-brushed', which means that most of the paint is wiped from the brush's bristles before applying. It takes a couple of coats, but it works. Decorators tend to not was to see any evidence of speakers and these seem to be their main sticking point, at least here in Beertown. Done right, the wallpaper method makes the speakers disappear, but it can affect the sound. However, the decorators don't care about that and they're one of the reasons Bose have been so popular. Ceiling speakers are a bit different- they can match the paint and usually, that's good enough unless the ceiling has been perforated by a lot of lights. Unfortunately, the 'invisible' speakers don't/can't sound good and are subject to the techniques of the drywall crew and painters.

One thing about architects- they definitely have strong opinions and like to be in control.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
I studied architecture and started working at a stereo store while I was in school- one of the reasons I decided that I didn't want to be an archi was the pay- as bad as the pay was at the store, I still made more than the starting pay for what I was studying, although one guy who finished with a 3.96GPA started at Harnischfeger (Heavy industry like cranes and mining equipment, their logo was PH) designing crane booms at about $26K/year when architects were starting at about $12K.

In many of the homes where I work, the designer/detonator wants the grills and frames to match the wall color and if the walls have been papered, that is applied and the holes are pierced. When painting, they're either sprayed or 'dry-brushed', which means that most of the paint is wiped from the brush's bristles before applying. It takes a couple of coats, but it works. Decorators tend to not was to see any evidence of speakers and these seem to be their main sticking point, at least here in Beertown. Done right, the wallpaper method makes the speakers disappear, but it can affect the sound. However, the decorators don't care about that and they're one of the reasons Bose have been so popular. Ceiling speakers are a bit different- they can match the paint and usually, that's good enough unless the ceiling has been perforated by a lot of lights. Unfortunately, the 'invisible' speakers don't/can't sound good and are subject to the techniques of the drywall crew and painters.

One thing about architects- they definitely have strong opinions and like to be in control.
I have seen those paint jobs, and they look silly. So, your interior designers, want the speakers to disappear when there is a humongous black screen that you can't hide?
That makes no sense. There is no point to hiding function. I think my daughter made the correct call. I think here, the rule of form and function absolutely applies.
I would stand up to those interior designers. I think the bilder's interior designer's nose is out of joint about what we did here. However she was wrong about almost everything and constantly overruled on this job.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
I have seen those paint jobs, and they look silly. So, your interior designers, want the speakers to disappear when there is a humongous black screen that you can't hide?
That makes no sense. There is no point to hiding function. I think my daughter made the correct call. I think here, the rule of form and function absolutely applies.
I would stand up to those interior designers. I think the bilder's interior designer's nose is out of joint about what we did here. However she was wrong about almost everything and constantly overruled on this job.
I'm a contractor and when the homeowner likes what the designer does, I'm not gonna argue with them- that's a time to know when to pick the battles that need to be won and this isn't one of those. Besides- it's not my house and I won't have to look at it. The ID is not going anywhere- I can be replaced because my function involves discretionary spending.

I have to satisfy many people on each project- if I want to keep working, I need to know when to shut my yap and I have done multiple projects for several people, worked with several builders and they often bring their own subs, which is great when it's not a new batch on each job- we know how the others work, what to expect and help each other when needed. The house I'm doing now- they don't want sound bars, in-wall or floorstanding speakers and there are no book cases nearby, so in-ceiling, it is. They're not anything like audiophiles, but I WILL deliver good sound. The last place to do this for them in their current house made their own speaker plates from particle board and covered them with grill cloth- they used screw caps to hide the screws, but those look worse than the screws. Worst looking speakers, ever.

1627568402195.png
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic General
i consider this site to be a group of thinkers.
just curious where this will go.
i want to understand this waf thing.

I refer to WAF from time to time, but I often exaggerate for intended (but likely ineffective) comedic effect. It's definitely an issue for some people though. I don't think the wives are necessarily crazy either. Some audio equipment is ugly and it can look really out of place in some rooms.

My wife is relatively tolerant of my audio stuff, but she does sense the leverage her veto power has and she will use it as a bargaining chip at times. This tends to be based on cost, not appearance (e.g. "Honey, we just spend $$$$$ on that new audio gear, I'd really like a new $$$$$")("$$$$$" being a new item she wants that is typically very similar in cost to the latest audio gear*). I'm not sure if this is truly a "WAF" situation because she normally accepts the audio gear purchase, but the acceptance comes with $ strings attached.

My hypothesis is that the WAF is inversely proportional to the SMI (Spousal Misery Index)(yes, I just made that up). Basically, if one buys audio gear with a low WAF, one will experience a high SMI.

*Drifting into legal jargon, this includes an implied estoppel argument. If I say we don't have the money for what she wants, her response is that I just spent that amount on the audio gear, so it can't be true that we can't also afford whatever it is she wants.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
My hypothesis is that the WAF is inversely proportional to the SMI (Spousal Misery Index)(yes, I just made that up). Basically, if one buys audio gear with a low WAF, one will experience a high SMI.
I like.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Samurai
My hypothesis is that the WAF is inversely proportional to the SMI (Spousal Misery Index)(yes, I just made that
Beware the discontinuous points on the SMI curve: When the spouse suddenly becomes very happy when you very infinitesimally moved downwards on WAF curve you know you are in real trouble.
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic General
Beware the discontinuous points on the SMI curve: When the spouse suddenly becomes very happy when you very infinitesimally moved downwards on WAF curve you know you are in real trouble.
"What are these speakers really going to cost me? A car or a diamond?"
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic General
I'm a contractor and when the homeowner likes what the designer does, I'm not gonna argue with them- that's a time to know when to pick the battles that need to be won and this isn't one of those. Besides- it's not my house and I won't have to look at it. The ID is not going anywhere- I can be replaced because my function involves discretionary spending.

I have to satisfy many people on each project- if I want to keep working, I need to know when to shut my yap and I have done multiple projects for several people, worked with several builders and they often bring their own subs, which is great when it's not a new batch on each job- we know how the others work, what to expect and help each other when needed. The house I'm doing now- they don't want sound bars, in-wall or floorstanding speakers and there are no book cases nearby, so in-ceiling, it is. They're not anything like audiophiles, but I WILL deliver good sound. The last place to do this for them in their current house made their own speaker plates from particle board and covered them with grill cloth- they used screw caps to hide the screws, but those look worse than the screws. Worst looking speakers, ever.

View attachment 49503
I used those screw caps on a project. ;) Put in a new bathroom with a tub with water jets, so I needed a front panel that was removable for servicing. Didn't like the overpriced plastic panels available so I made a wooden one and painted it white. 6 screws with caps and caulking across the top was enough to keep it in place without vibrating. I figured the matching white caps would look decorative. Not sure if it would make highfigh's approval. :D
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I refer to WAF from time to time, but I often exaggerate for intended (but likely ineffective) comedic effect. It's definitely an issue for some people though. I don't think the wives are necessarily crazy either. Some audio equipment is ugly and it can look really out of place in some rooms.

My wife is relatively tolerant of my audio stuff, but she does sense the leverage her veto power has and she will use it as a bargaining chip at times. This tends to be based on cost, not appearance (e.g. "Honey, we just spend $$$$$ on that new audio gear, I'd really like a new $$$$$")("$$$$$" being a new item she wants that is typically very similar in cost to the latest audio gear*). I'm not sure if this is truly a "WAF" situation because she normally accepts the audio gear purchase, but the acceptance comes with $ strings attached.

My hypothesis is that the WAF is inversely proportional to the SMI (Spousal Misery Index)(yes, I just made that up). Basically, if one buys audio gear with a low WAF, one will experience a high SMI.

*Drifting into legal jargon, this includes an implied estoppel argument. If I say we don't have the money for what she wants, her response is that I just spent that amount on the audio gear, so it can't be true that we can't also afford whatever it is she wants.
“I don't think the wives are necessarily crazy either.”

Well…doesn’t prove they are not crazy either…. LOL. :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
“I don't think the wives are necessarily crazy either.”

Well…doesn’t prove they are not crazy either…. LOL. :)
I can tell you one thing I have noticed, for a very long time, women are far more discerning of audio flaws than men. The guy may think he has audio nirvana and his wife disagree. In my experience she is more likely to be right. I think part of this problem is that many women are unimpressed with the result.

However get them used to really good audio, and they are hooked and quickly become intolerant of shortcomings. They tend to spot good sound, even if they do not know why.

But returning to my previous point, elegant design with the crop of current audio products is a huge challenge. In the living environment that is a definite problem that we do not address enough.

Interior designers are a particular problem, as they are either not taught, or do not understand, the concept of form and function. Without understanding the principles of that approach, there is no chance for elegant functional design.
 

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