Volume on Onkyo 805

[jostenmeat]

What I found when the designer showed it to me you can not make it Eq the bass only, which is where the room effects lie. I think that is a significant miss step.

IIRC, some auto EQ systems like ARC can have its upper limit of correction adjusted, but that many users leave that point higher than expected because there often are enough benefits by doing so in their cases, so far that I can remember.

I think this is why high end systems do not use these programs. I think anyone contemplating using these systems should critically evaluate their systems with and without these types of programs

I can think of a number of high end systems that use them. You have some extremely discerning tastes, but I don't think my own systems are all too shabby, and the ones I think of are definitely high end to me. I even think of a B&W D series mch system, front three being 802Ds, IIRC.


However, don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion and thoughts on the matter. No one would disagree with you that the physics of placements within any specific room itself should be addressed first, or even that passive treatments should be addressed first.

My positive experience with Audyssey MultEQ XT was after enjoying extensive acoustic treatments for a number of months. The improvement with the EQ was almost as good as the passive treatments themselves, in my extremely subjective opinion. Please know that my home has really horrible acoustics, slap echo, etc. It definitely took effort to tame, and it's still not totally tamed by any means. Oh well.

 

[TLS Guy]

IIRC, some auto EQ systems like ARC can have its upper limit of correction adjusted, but that many users leave that point higher than expected because there often are enough benefits by doing so in their cases, so far that I can remember.



I can think of a number of high end systems that use them. You have some extremely discerning tastes, but I don't think my own systems are all too shabby, and the ones I think of are definitely high end to me. I even think of a B&W D series mch system, front three being 802Ds, IIRC.


However, don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion and thoughts on the matter. No one would disagree with you that the physics of placements within any specific room itself should be addressed first, or even that passive treatments should be addressed first.

My positive experience with Audyssey MultEQ XT was after enjoying extensive acoustic treatments for a number of months. The improvement with the EQ was almost as good as the passive treatments themselves, in my extremely subjective opinion. Please know that my home has really horrible acoustics, slap echo, etc. It definitely took effort to tame, and it's still not totally tamed by any means. Oh well.

Bear in mind I have had only one opportunity to evaluate that system.

I guess I'm a minimalist at heart. That probably sounds strange given the complexity of this system. However it has a lot of minimalist concepts where appropriate, such as use of pure acoustic slopes where it can work.

Usually when I'm not happy, I can trace it to a speaker issue requiring more work. I always was impressed by John Wright of TDL who tested all his designs over a long period. Once he had them good, he would only make crossover changes at three to four month intervals. Only when he stopped revising did he release a design for the market. I think most designs are released for too soon to market, because of the pressure of these money grubbing years.

I follow the same basic plan, except I don't release to market.

Even small speaker problems interact in a most unfortunate way with room problems.

I'm listening to Angela Hewitt at her Fazoli piano in two channel bypass mode right now.

Signal is as pure as possible. CD player decoded by RME Fireface 800. Analog to Rotel pre/pro in by pass. Then to the electronic crossovers amps and two front speakers.

Sounds like she is playing right in front of me in a plane behind the TV screen.
I suspect I'm hearing very little difference to the sound at the recording venue. It really does sound like a piano does in real life, so I don't have an urge to have a computer based system interfere, but that is just my view.

 

[Jeff R.]

Ok - I just skimmed this thread so maybe I missed something. I believe I am encountering the same issues that Griff mentioned. I can not even come close to obtaining the listening levels I desire with my 805.

If I understand what TLS has commented on, by utilizing my Audyssey Auto Cal system I have limited my output by 3dB......????? Is this correct? Or am I missing the point..

I have previously posted on this matter in reference to my 805 not having the "balls" to push my speakers to the level my older HK AVR7000 used to. I was assured the 805 had plenty of power for my speakers.....I was very skeptical about this.

So If my question above is accurate, then maybe I need to remove the use of this system so I can obtain desired system performance.

Any help would be greatly appreciated......

Griff....hopefully we can get the performance we desire from our systems with out having to add external amps.

Jeff

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok - I just skimmed this thread so maybe I missed something. I believe I am encountering the same issues that Griff mentioned. I can not even come close to obtaining the listening levels I desire with my 805.

If I understand what TLS has commented on, by utilizing my Audyssey Auto Cal system I have limited my output by 3dB......????? Is this correct? Or am I missing the point..

I have previously posted on this matter in reference to my 805 not having the "balls" to push my speakers to the level my older HK AVR7000 used to. I was assured the 805 had plenty of power for my speakers.....I was very skeptical about this.

So If my question above is accurate, then maybe I need to remove the use of this system so I can obtain desired system performance.

Any help would be greatly appreciated......

Griff....hopefully we can get the performance we desire from our systems with out having to add external amps.

Jeff

You have the wrong end of the stick. When you add Eq it involves boosting frequencies relative to others. Every 3db boost double the power required from the amp at the boosted frequencies. So if the boost os more than 3 db which is very likely, then you can have a lot more of your amp power than you think going to Eq.

The only way you will know is to defeat Eq and see.

There are a lot of reasons that receivers under power.

All except the high end ones deliver maximal voltage to an 8 Ohm load. Most speakers these days drop impedance below 600 Hz and effectively are four ohm speakers no matter what the "nominal Impedance" is alleged to be.

If you take a fairly typical phase angle for a speaker in that frequency range, it means that your average 100 watt receiver will only actually deliver 35 watts into a pretty typical two and a half way tower. If all channels get called on it will be less than that.

So what is required is amps that maintain voltage to so somewhere between 4 and 6 ohms, preferably four.

With four amps in a case and a boat load of processing power that is not going to happen, at least with class AB amps. With class D possibly, however they have significant issues at the lower end of the price spectrum at this time. However when class D amps are really ready for prime time at low price points, they need putting in the speakers, one for each frequency band.

 

[griffinconst]

Ok - I just skimmed this thread so maybe I missed something. I believe I am encountering the same issues that Griff mentioned. I can not even come close to obtaining the listening levels I desire with my 805.

If I understand what TLS has commented on, by utilizing my Audyssey Auto Cal system I have limited my output by 3dB......????? Is this correct? Or am I missing the point..

I have previously posted on this matter in reference to my 805 not having the "balls" to push my speakers to the level my older HK AVR7000 used to. I was assured the 805 had plenty of power for my speakers.....I was very skeptical about this.

So If my question above is accurate, then maybe I need to remove the use of this system so I can obtain desired system performance.

Any help would be greatly appreciated......

Griff....hopefully we can get the performance we desire from our systems with out having to add external amps.

Jeff

Hey Jeff -I don't mean to repeat or be overly simple but -
1. Is your max volume setting turned off?
2. Are you running in the 6/8ohm setting? Even if your speakers are rated 4ohms, I'd still run the 805 in 8ohm setting. Just turn it down if your speakers start barking.
3. If you're using audyssey, have you tried Direct or Pure modes? Will it go considerably louder in those modes, like mine? I don't mean sounding louder from one mode to another at the same volume setting. In stereo and other audyssey controled modes, mine tops out before 0db, maybe -8 or -5. After that the meter shows it's going up but it doesn't get any louder. In Pure or Direct modes it goes louder than I can stand. Can you NEVER get yours loud in any mode?

We'll get this figured out...with a little help from our friends.

Tonight I'll try turning off audyssey and do a comparison. I hope it's that simple, even though I'll feel kinda stupid.

 

[Jeff R.]

Hey Jeff -I don't mean to repeat or be overly simple but -
1. Is your max volume setting turned off?
2. Are you running in the 6/8ohm setting? Even if your speakers are rated 4ohms, I'd still run the 805 in 8ohm setting. Just turn it down if your speakers start barking.
3. If you're using audyssey, have you tried Direct or Pure modes? Will it go considerably louder in those modes, like mine? I don't mean sounding louder from one mode to another at the same volume setting. In stereo and other audyssey controled modes, mine tops out before 0db, maybe -8 or -5. After that the meter shows it's going up but it doesn't get any louder. In Pure or Direct modes it goes louder than I can stand. Can you NEVER get yours loud in any mode?

QUOTE]

1: I will have to check on the Max Volume Setting......
2: I am in 6/8 ohm mode
3: I do find pure and direct to be loader at the same dB reading and I do see my volume levels stop chaging before I get to the 0dB on the display.

My volume level never get even close to what I could obtain from my old receiver. I can take my grills off and my drivers in my towers are not really moving very much only half as much movement as I used to be able to push them to.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey Jeff -I don't mean to repeat or be overly simple but -
1. Is your max volume setting turned off?
2. Are you running in the 6/8ohm setting? Even if your speakers are rated 4ohms, I'd still run the 805 in 8ohm setting. Just turn it down if your speakers start barking.
3. If you're using audyssey, have you tried Direct or Pure modes? Will it go considerably louder in those modes, like mine? I don't mean sounding louder from one mode to another at the same volume setting. In stereo and other audyssey controled modes, mine tops out before 0db, maybe -8 or -5. After that the meter shows it's going up but it doesn't get any louder. In Pure or Direct modes it goes louder than I can stand. Can you NEVER get yours loud in any mode?

QUOTE]


1: I will have to check on the Max Volume Setting......
2: I am in 6/8 ohm mode
3: I do find pure and direct to be loader at the same dB reading and I do see my volume levels stop chaging before I get to the 0dB on the display.

My volume level never get even close to what I could obtain from my old receiver. I can take my grills off and my drivers in my towers are not really moving very much only half as much movement as I used to be able to push them to.

I'm guilty of not looking to see what your speakers are. You have MB Quart 1030 fronts. These are one of the most difficult to drive speakers ever produced. I would imagine your receiver can likely only deliver somewhere around 15 to 20 watts to those. Those speakers have MTM drivers in parallel and then another woofer is shelved in first order at 200 Hz for diffraction compensation.

To drive those you need a big external amp comfortable and able to produce good power into 2 ohm loads. I don't think there is a receiver on the planet that will drive those speakers.

 

[griffinconst]

Ok, with Audyssey off I get all the volume I want, in all modes, with music. So the EQ-ing cut down the total volume quite a bit.
Watching tv, the sound coming out of the speakers tops out at -10 and doesn't get any louder from -10 on up, even with Audyssey off. Tv does keep getting louder all the way up in Direct or Pure modes.
This ones got me stumped. Why would this problem seem to be solved for music but not tv?

Jeff - Are you using a sub? Do you have much sound coming out of it? Are your mains wired directly to the receiver, not through the sub?

 

[Jeff R.]

I am using the dual A2-300's that are running of the LFE output on my reciever. I have overall low volume across all levels. Speakers and Subs. I can obtain some better levels of performance during movies when utilizing my PS3.


TLS Guys - Thanks for the input on my speakers. I have been searching for an external amp for a few months, I have scraped together about $350 that I could use. I have been eying some used Carver's. Do you have any other recommendations??? Thanks.

 

[Jeff R.]

I just stumbled across Seth_L's amp for sale, would this cut it????

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62309

Thanks

 

[griffinconst]

I know there are input settings for each speaker, give those a look. They may be turned way down, although I think Audyssey overrides those. Are there input settings for components? I don't remember but check that as well.

Are you still under warranty? Try Onkyo Tech support either way. If they help you, let us know.

How many watts was your old receiver? Did you have an external amp?

 

[griffinconst]

I am using the dual A2-300's that are running of the LFE output on my reciever. I have overall low volume across all levels. Speakers and Subs. I can obtain some better levels of performance during movies when utilizing my PS3.


TLS Guys - Thanks for the input on my speakers. I have been searching for an external amp for a few months, I have scraped together about $350 that I could use. I have been eying some used Carver's. Do you have any other recommendations??? Thanks.

Are your mains wired via the sub or directly to the receiver?
Again, I don't want to insult you with simple questions, I'm just grasping at straws here.

 

[Jeff R.]

Speaker are wired directly to the reciever.

My old receiver was a HK AVR7000. It was rated to 100 W, howver that is an HK rating which generally very conservative as compared to other manufactures. I will say my Onk and the HK are very similar in weight which up front make me comfortable that they would be comparable in power output.

 

[TLS Guy]

Speaker are wired directly to the reciever.

My old receiver was a HK AVR7000. It was rated to 100 W, howver that is an HK rating which generally very conservative as compared to other manufactures. I will say my Onk and the HK are very similar in weight which up front make me comfortable that they would be comparable in power output.

I just looked at the specs of the HK. It has a total of 75 amps available for the speakers. It can provide 100 watts X 5 with all channels driven simultaneously.

The power rating input four and 2 ohm is not specified. However with that current specified it should be able to provide very decent power into two ohms.

I don't think anything with an Onkyo label will get in striking distance of that as you are finding out.

I would bet that Onkyo has a current limiter to stop it blowing up powering speakers like yours. That is why the volume does not increase as you advance the volume setting.

 

[Jeff R.]

I just stumbled across Seth_L's amp for sale, would this cut it????

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62309

Thanks

TLS - Would this be strong enough to handle my speakers? If not any recommedations for in the $300-350 price range. I am open to used from Audiogon or Ebay.

Thanks

Jeff

 

[jostenmeat]

I just looked at the specs of the HK. It has a total of 75 amps available for the speakers. It can provide 100 watts X 5 with all channels driven simultaneously.

The power rating input four and 2 ohm is not specified. However with that current specified it should be able to provide very decent power into two ohms.

I don't think anything with an Onkyo label will get in striking distance of that as you are finding out.

I would bet that Onkyo has a current limiter to stop it blowing up powering speakers like yours. That is why the volume does not increase as you advance the volume setting.

I sure don't know how the 805 handles 2 ohms, but the Secrets bench test had it power 2 channel, with 1% distortion as limit, at 173 watts into 8 ohms, and 270 watts into 4 ohms (however, with an unspecified time limit in the lab).

I will let you interpret that for me.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_3/onkyo-tx-sr805-receiver-9-2006-part-5.html

TLS - Would this be strong enough to handle my speakers? If not any recommedations for in the $300-350 price range. I am open to used from Audiogon or Ebay.

Thanks

Jeff

At that budget, you may be limited to a pro amp. If you shop very well, and are very patient, you might be able to land a couple of Outlaw monoblocks on the classifieds, but definitely not as new. I'm sure there are other possibilities, but they're escaping me for now.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS - Would this be strong enough to handle my speakers? If not any recommedations for in the $300-350 price range. I am open to used from Audiogon or Ebay.

Thanks

Jeff

No the output devices are far too small.

In your price range you need something like this.

Good vintage gear will cost you a lot more.

If you up your budget considerably you will have a lot more options.

This might be your best bet.

 

[Jeff R.]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have been eyeing Emotiva for a few months. I guess I may need to just save a few more buck and pull the trigger. Any word on some of the older Carvers, I see many of them floating around for about 200-400 and they seem to have solid ratings. I have a friend with a Carver and he loved it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have been eyeing Emotiva for a few months. I guess I may need to just save a few more buck and pull the trigger. Any word on some of the older Carvers, I see many of them floating around for about 200-400 and they seem to have solid ratings. I have a friend with a Carver and he loved it.

I think the Carvers sound fine, but too many have had issues with the switching rail power supply. On balance I would not recommend it.

Used Quad 909's can be had for around $800, but that is out of your price range.

I personally use Quad amplification exclusively and have for forty years or more.

 

[griffinconst]

Jeff - Why did you replace your old receiver?

TSL or Josten - Can you comment on why I seem to have solved my volume trouble with music but not TV?