Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
With the low current draw, it should be easy to use for long periods. If someone wants to make it REALLY easy, use Lithium Ion cordless tool batteries, so the charge level is easy to see and they can be swapped between LPs and there's no break-in period.

I look forward to peoples' comments about that.

5-6 Ah batteries are a helluva lot less money than this crap.

If you look at the actual energy used by small electronics like turntables, streaming devices, DACs, etc, I'm surprised the DIY community hasn't jumped all over cordless tool batteries- the Chinese knock-offs are good and cheap. Not sure any are actually made in the US, but if using foreign-made is a problem for someone, they're kinda screwed because the battery cells are made there, too. Closed cell, AGM, Carbon Foam or Lithium Ion batteries for other applications would work, too- many battery companies still make their products in the US.

WRT sag, look into guitar players who search far & wide for 'just the right rectifier' tube- they read about a vintage amp that has 'wonderful sag' and have to have it, even though it would never be the same with their modern design. They'll pay over $100 for one tube from the '50s, to put it in a $300 POS amp because they think they'll sound like angels when they play.

I'm sorry, I was wrong- apparently, a NOS GZ34/5AR4 can be close to $300.

This year I am trying to transition from a guitar owner to a guitar player. Your comments about guitar players chasing tone by searching out exotic old tubes made me laugh. Musicians are a funny bunch when it comes to their craft. I personally don't know any folks chasing tone by buying old junk, but I definitely can envision it happening. What I see in my own small personal sample of guitar players is they are picking up the new digital modeling amps left and right and abandoning (although they would never admit it) the analog stuff. I actually saw a picture the other day of a fellow who had his old Marshall stack setup on a stage. It was not being used. Tucked in behind it was a new Line 6 modeling amp and that's what was on and doing the tunes. The player couldn't part with the old analog image, but was more than happy to let the digital amp do the work.

In the normal part of our audio hobby there's still a contingent that loves the glow of the tubes. Fantastic claims often emit from this group. Live and let live. If tubes make folks happy, well, let them be happy. Maybe after a long love affair with tubes, guitar players are now waking up to the wonders of digital modeling amps. I dont know and am probably risking forum backlash for just saying it. But, I can see the possibility. All my stuff in my setup is digital. But someday I will probably buy a tube amp because everybody knows serious players only use tubes. :)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
This year I am trying to transition from a guitar owner to a guitar player. Your comments about guitar players chasing tone by searching out exotic old tubes made me laugh. Musicians are a funny bunch when it comes to their craft. I personally don't know any folks chasing tone by buying old junk, but I definitely can envision it happening. What I see in my own small personal sample of guitar players is they are picking up the new digital modeling amps left and right and abandoning (although they would never admit it) the analog stuff. I actually saw a picture the other day of a fellow who had his old Marshall stack setup on a stage. It was not being used. Tucked in behind it was a new Line 6 modeling amp and that's what was on and doing the tunes. The player couldn't part with the old analog image, but was more than happy to let the digital amp do the work.

In the normal part of our audio hobby there's still a contingent that loves the glow of the tubes. Fantastic claims often emit from this group. Live and let live. If tubes make folks happy, well, let them be happy. Maybe after a long love affair with tubes, guitar players are now waking up to the wonders of digital modeling amps. I dont know and am probably risking forum backlash for just saying it. But, I can see the possibility. All my stuff in my setup is digital. But someday I will probably buy a tube amp because everybody knows serious players only use tubes. :)
I thought the Line6 thing was pretty much a dead issue- people used digital modeling amps, decided they weren't as good, went back to tubes, rinse, lather repeat. Although, for many applications (recording, DI and having a lot of effects in one platform), it's convenient, some digital effects and modeling are good, some are crap.

The Fender Cyber Twin was very functional and, from experience from owning one, its 1958 Bassman sound was excellent, although hearing that without a direct comparison is the point- without making the comparison, it's definitely 'good enough'. I went to a Fender clinic the night of 9-11 and the first chords from the Cyber Twin in '58 Bassman mode were almost shocking because it really captured the sound well. That amp was not easy for many people to use, though- it didn't have the typical layout and people needed to change the way they conceived the way it's controlled in order for it to be useful for them. I know someone who was considering getting rid of his because he just couldn't do what he needed and when he talked to the guy who did most of the Fender clinics at the time, hearing the explanation was like an epiphany for him.

If someone needs a variety of amp sounds, digital is an easy way to achieve it without becoming a vintage amp collector but if they want the actual sounds, the latter really is necessary.

The solid state vs tube issue has occurred several times since the '70s- people dumped their tube amps, bought solid state and decided that they liked tubes more. Those classic vintage tube amps were tossed in the dump, scrapped and for some, a cheap way to buy an amp they had recently become aware of (me) and because they're more scarce and desired, the prices have skyrocketed for some models. Once the former tube users decided they didn't actually like the sound of solid state amps or didn't want to hear phase shifter on every freaking song (like Peavey amps in Country music), they went back to tubes. Vintage amp models were reissued and in the case of the Tweed Bassman, the reissue came out in 1991-ish and has been in constant production without a break ever since then, in more than one version (the normal RI, the LTD, which stands for 'Lacquered Tweed' and the hand-wired model). They only made about 1500 Tweed Bassman amps in the form that is most popular (1957-1960) and because it was so popular as a guitar amp and because it was the model for the first Marshall amp (JTM 45,) it has become a 'holy grail' amp model.

Many thing that the tubes for guitar amps are hard to find and that they're difficult to service, but that's far from the truth. There's so much info out there that it's almost ridiculous.

The thing about tubes- for producing the sound from guitar/bass/etc, it's hard to beat the sound but for reproduction, I think that solid state is better and more accurate. That's not saying I don't like a good tube amp- I have heard many that were excellent, but for ease of use, low maintenance and almost no impact on HVAC load, tubes can be a bit of a burden.

WRT chasing tone- the guy who did those Fender clinics has said that he wants a pedal with one knob, labeled 'MORE'.

1609927962775.png


1609928236733.png
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
I thought the Line6 thing was pretty much a dead issue- people used digital modeling amps, decided they weren't as good, went back to tubes, rinse, lather repeat. Although, for many applications (recording, DI and having a lot of effects in one platform), it's convenient, some digital effects and modeling are good, some are crap.

The Fender Cyber Twin was very functional and, from experience from owning one, its 1958 Bassman sound was excellent, although hearing that without a direct comparison is the point- without making the comparison, it's definitely 'good enough'. I went to a Fender clinic the night of 9-11 and the first chords from the Cyber Twin in '58 Bassman mode were almost shocking because it really captured the sound well. That amp was not easy for many people to use, though- it didn't have the typical layout and people needed to change the way they conceived the way it's controlled in order for it to be useful for them. I know someone who was considering getting rid of his because he just couldn't do what he needed and when he talked to the guy who did most of the Fender clinics at the time, hearing the explanation was like an epiphany for him.

If someone needs a variety of amp sounds, digital is an easy way to achieve it without becoming a vintage amp collector but if they want the actual sounds, the latter really is necessary.

The solid state vs tube issue has occurred several times since the '70s- people dumped their tube amps, bought solid state and decided that they liked tubes more. Those classic vintage tube amps were tossed in the dump, scrapped and for some, a cheap way to buy an amp they had recently become aware of (me) and because they're more scarce and desired, the prices have skyrocketed for some models. Once the former tube users decided they didn't actually like the sound of solid state amps or didn't want to hear phase shifter on every freaking song (like Peavey amps in Country music), they went back to tubes. Vintage amp models were reissued and in the case of the Tweed Bassman, the reissue came out in 1991-ish and has been in constant production without a break ever since then, in more than one version (the normal RI, the LTD, which stands for 'Lacquered Tweed' and the hand-wired model). They only made about 1500 Tweed Bassman amps in the form that is most popular (1957-1960) and because it was so popular as a guitar amp and because it was the model for the first Marshall amp (JTM 45,) it has become a 'holy grail' amp model.

Many thing that the tubes for guitar amps are hard to find and that they're difficult to service, but that's far from the truth. There's so much info out there that it's almost ridiculous.

The thing about tubes- for producing the sound from guitar/bass/etc, it's hard to beat the sound but for reproduction, I think that solid state is better and more accurate. That's not saying I don't like a good tube amp- I have heard many that were excellent, but for ease of use, low maintenance and almost no impact on HVAC load, tubes can be a bit of a burden.

WRT chasing tone- the guy who did those Fender clinics has said that he wants a pedal with one knob, labeled 'MORE'.

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View attachment 43416
Loved your post. I enjoyed pretty much everything you said including your windup with the pedals. I bought my first pedal this last month. I can see where its an infection and disease as bad as any upgradeiitis amongst audiophiles. Pedal fever is pretty easy to catch and from what I can see it just gets worse. I am looking forward to developing a serious case. My power supply only supports 12 pedals. Sigh.

When it comes to artists creating music, or the production side of the world, I completely agree that anything is fair game and whatever someone wants to use to produce a sound, tone, or tune is fair game. Tubes have a comfy spot in the guitar world and even though I'm all solid state I know that "just because" I will buy a Marshall stack or a Fender all tube amp some day. Its just part of the gig and part of the experience.

I also agree that on the re-production side there's much less reason to jump backwards to tubes. You can if you want, I'm ok with that. I just don't see any reason other than nostalgia to do so for me and my little corner of the world.

Anyway, enjoyed your post and you can elaborate on the world of guitars and making music anytime
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Loved your post. I enjoyed pretty much everything you said including your windup with the pedals. I bought my first pedal this last month. I can see where its an infection and disease as bad as any upgradeiitis amongst audiophiles. Pedal fever is pretty easy to catch and from what I can see it just gets worse. I am looking forward to developing a serious case. My power supply only supports 12 pedals. Sigh.

When it comes to artists creating music, or the production side of the world, I completely agree that anything is fair game and whatever someone wants to use to produce a sound, tone, or tune is fair game. Tubes have a comfy spot in the guitar world and even though I'm all solid state I know that "just because" I will buy a Marshall stack or a Fender all tube amp some day. Its just part of the gig and part of the experience.

I also agree that on the re-production side there's much less reason to jump backwards to tubes. You can if you want, I'm ok with that. I just don't see any reason other than nostalgia to do so for me and my little corner of the world.

Anyway, enjoyed your post and you can elaborate on the world of guitars and making music anytime
I forgot to include something about using pedals- if someone doesn't play multiple styles of music, especially if they aren't in a cover band, a large number isn't really necessary, although 'nailing the sound' is impossible without them. For those who do play many styles and cover a large number of players, the big question is, "Do I use what they use, or do I find something that lets me come close?". If you want some of the sounds used by Joe Walsh, Peter Frampton, Clapton and others, you're gonna need a talk box or a Leslie speaker. The sound of the talk box and Leslie can't be imitated well enough for anyone to think they're the same, but it gets someone close enough for a gig. The bridge in the song 'Badge' buy Cream is a good example of guitar through a Leslie- this link has others, as well-


Arguably, the best LEslie simulation comes from the Neo Ventilator models.

If you have considered a Flanger, you might be interested in it's supposed origin- it was done by playing the same track on two machines and varying the speed of one while the sound from both is mixed together- in the case of Les Paul (who is credited with finding it in the 1940s), he used acetate discs but the format doesn't matter.


Phase shift is similar, in that it mixes a sound with another that has been delayed- it's likely that using 'phase shifter' as the name didn't violate some copyright. If you want to hear this effect without needing a pedal, exhale with your mouth open and move your hand forward and away with your palm facing your mouth.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
I forgot to include something about using pedals- if someone doesn't play multiple styles of music, especially if they aren't in a cover band, a large number isn't really necessary, although 'nailing the sound' is impossible without them. For those who do play many styles and cover a large number of players, the big question is, "Do I use what they use, or do I find something that lets me come close?". If you want some of the sounds used by Joe Walsh, Peter Frampton, Clapton and others, you're gonna need a talk box or a Leslie speaker. The sound of the talk box and Leslie can't be imitated well enough for anyone to think they're the same, but it gets someone close enough for a gig. The bridge in the song 'Badge' buy Cream is a good example of guitar through a Leslie- this link has others, as well-


Arguably, the best LEslie simulation comes from the Neo Ventilator models.

If you have considered a Flanger, you might be interested in it's supposed origin- it was done by playing the same track on two machines and varying the speed of one while the sound from both is mixed together- in the case of Les Paul (who is credited with finding it in the 1940s), he used acetate discs but the format doesn't matter.


Phase shift is similar, in that it mixes a sound with another that has been delayed- it's likely that using 'phase shifter' as the name didn't violate some copyright. If you want to hear this effect without needing a pedal, exhale with your mouth open and move your hand forward and away with your palm facing your mouth.
Again, I enjoyed your post. Folks on this thread may not be enjoying it but I am.
The Leslie speaker/organ is one of my favorite things to see on stage for a performance because I enjoy what it brings to the audio party. Its a unique sound that's been around a long time. You are correct, there's nothing quite like it. Often imitated with electronics, but never equaled.

I am still a guitar playing newb so I claim no expertise with pedal mechanics other than to know to achieve or imitate the tone of certain players I'm going to want to invest someday. One of the things I have always marveled at, and still do today, is how simple and clean a guitar sosunds when its set up as "a clean guitar". No affects and no funny business and the guitar sounds pretty much like everybody elses guitar. How you get from that sound to the sound of a truly advanced player is a marvel to me because the instrument is the same. The notes are the same on the fretboard. But the sound can be radically different just because of what the artists puts in the signal path..

There are players that keep it clean. Larry Carlton for one.; Ronnie Earl for another. They keep their signal paths pretty clean and play the blues and other genres straight up. Joe Bonamassa, Buddy Guy , Kenny Wayne Shepherd and others stoke that signal path with tons of affects and tones and yet its still the same instrument.
I have a lot to learn and a lot to look forward to. Its been an enjoyable journey so far. I am not good at it yet. But I'm loving the trial of trying
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Again, I enjoyed your post. Folks on this thread may not be enjoying it but I am.
The Leslie speaker/organ is one of my favorite things to see on stage for a performance because I enjoy what it brings to the audio party. Its a unique sound that's been around a long time. You are correct, there's nothing quite like it. Often imitated with electronics, but never equaled.

I am still a guitar playing newb so I claim no expertise with pedal mechanics other than to know to achieve or imitate the tone of certain players I'm going to want to invest someday. One of the things I have always marveled at, and still do today, is how simple and clean a guitar sosunds when its set up as "a clean guitar". No affects and no funny business and the guitar sounds pretty much like everybody elses guitar. How you get from that sound to the sound of a truly advanced player is a marvel to me because the instrument is the same. The notes are the same on the fretboard. But the sound can be radically different just because of what the artists puts in the signal path..

There are players that keep it clean. Larry Carlton for one.; Ronnie Earl for another. They keep their signal paths pretty clean and play the blues and other genres straight up. Joe Bonamassa, Buddy Guy , Kenny Wayne Shepherd and others stoke that signal path with tons of affects and tones and yet its still the same instrument.
I have a lot to learn and a lot to look forward to. Its been an enjoyable journey so far. I am not good at it yet. But I'm loving the trial of trying
One comment that you may see and hear- "I got the same rig as (fill in the blank) but I just sounded like me". Not only will the settings not be the same, a lot of someone's sound is in the way they handle the instrument, fret the notes, their vibrato, picking, etc. "It's in the hands", as they say.

Larry Carlton was one of the first call guys in the studios and his signal path may be simple, but he definitely uses/used effects. However, a lot of his parts on Steely Dan songs were played with a Gibson ES-335 through his Tweed Deluxe amp. That combination became his lead sound on their albums. I would recommend listening to his work on The Crusaders, his solo work (like the LP 'Strikes Twice') and anything he did with Carole King or Joni Mitchell.

Here's an analysis of a Steely Dan song with solos by Carlton-

 
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Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
One comment that you may see and hear- "I got the same rig as (fill in the blank) but I just sounded like me". Not only will the settings not be the same, a lot of someone's sound is in the way they handle the instrument, fret the notes, their vibrato, picking, etc. "It's in the hands", as they say.

Larry Carlton was one of the first call guys in the studios and his signal path may be simple, but he definitely uses/used effects. However, a lot of his parts on Steely Dan songs were played with a Gibson ES-335 through his Tweed Deluxe amp. That combination became his lead sound on their albums. I would recommend listening to his work on The Crusaders, his solo work (like the LP 'Strikes Twice') and anything he did with Carole King or Joni Mitchell.

Here's an analysis of a Steely Dan song with solos by Carlton-

@highfigh
Do you mean to tell me that even though I have a Strat just like Eric Clapton and a Les Paul just like Billy Gibbons that I'm not going to sound just like them? I am shocked and dismayed. I thought that was the hard part. Just buying the guitars. Oh my. It seems I have a lot to learn. Next you're gonna tell me their amp setups are important. Sheesh.

On a more safe and sane note, do you know what software or tool Rich Beato was using to dissect that Steely Dan track? What he was doing was pretty impressive stuff. I would like to be able to do that so that when I eventually get good enough I can choose my own songs to screw up.

I am using Garageband right now because its free on my Mac and I can run my guitar straight in and not annoy everyone in my house. Eventually I'd like to be able to annoy everyone but for now I'm keeping my noises to myself.

I always find it interesting to see how smitten many people in the music business are with Steely Dan. Because of all the positive stuff I went out and bought most of Steely Dan's tracks and ripped them in to my library. I lived through their period of fame and fortune but I was never really much of a fan. Now that I have a great sounding music room I can see from a technical point of view that their stuff is well recorded and clean as a whistle. As music however it just doesn't do much for me. I also had no idea Larry Carlton played on their stuff. But that's the thing with studio musicians, if you don't have the liner notes you'll never know that kind of stuff. One great feature of Vinyl is the liner notes and materials. I love that stuff.

I am enjoying the education as usual. Your comments have lots of good stuff in them on this topic. I am such a newb. But, I love this stuff and I love the music. Thanks for taking the time
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
@highfigh
Do you mean to tell me that even though I have a Strat just like Eric Clapton and a Les Paul just like Billy Gibbons that I'm not going to sound just like them? I am shocked and dismayed. I thought that was the hard part. Just buying the guitars. Oh my. It seems I have a lot to learn. Next you're gonna tell me their amp setups are important. Sheesh.

On a more safe and sane note, do you know what software or tool Rich Beato was using to dissect that Steely Dan track? What he was doing was pretty impressive stuff. I would like to be able to do that so that when I eventually get good enough I can choose my own songs to screw up.

I am using Garageband right now because its free on my Mac and I can run my guitar straight in and not annoy everyone in my house. Eventually I'd like to be able to annoy everyone but for now I'm keeping my noises to myself.

I always find it interesting to see how smitten many people in the music business are with Steely Dan. Because of all the positive stuff I went out and bought most of Steely Dan's tracks and ripped them in to my library. I lived through their period of fame and fortune but I was never really much of a fan. Now that I have a great sounding music room I can see from a technical point of view that their stuff is well recorded and clean as a whistle. As music however it just doesn't do much for me. I also had no idea Larry Carlton played on their stuff. But that's the thing with studio musicians, if you don't have the liner notes you'll never know that kind of stuff. One great feature of Vinyl is the liner notes and materials. I love that stuff.

I am enjoying the education as usual. Your comments have lots of good stuff in them on this topic. I am such a newb. But, I love this stuff and I love the music. Thanks for taking the time
Rick Beato is on Facebook and you can contact him to ask what he uses- he may show it in some of his videos, too.

Steely Dan isn't for everyone, but the musicianship can be a good learning tool. The lineup for their recordings has been well known since almost Day 1- Guitar Player magazine was one of the places people could look for this because they provided in-depth interviews, starting around 1970 and that's where I found a lot of great music. They talked about their music, then about their influences. Once you see enough people talking about being influenced by the same people, it's natural to look into them, too. Pretty soon, it takes you all the way back to the dawn of recording, over 100 years ago (obviously, it wasn't 100 years before the early interviews).

If you want to see who's on what, google the name of the recording and you should be able to find it.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
@highfigh


Eventually I'd like to be able to annoy everyone but for now I'm keeping my noises to myself.

I always find it interesting to see how smitten many people in the music business are with Steely Dan. Because of all the positive stuff I went out and bought most of Steely Dan's tracks and ripped them in to my library. I lived through their period of fame and fortune but I was never really much of a fan. Now that I have a great sounding music room I can see from a technical point of view that their stuff is well recorded and clean as a whistle. As music however it just doesn't do much for me.

If you aren't annoying people, what's the point?????????????????

Steely Dan expanded recording tech and quality, in some ways. They really were perfectionists and that can improve the music, or it can be too obsessive and lead to nit-picking to the extent that money is wasted, people don't want to work with them and in some cases, the end result won't be noticed.

I was talking with a friend about thin kind of thing- one of Rick Beato's videos is about Miles Davis and how his band went into the studio for one day in March, 1956, then another day in October, 1956. On those two days, they recorded enough material for four albums. They weren't long albums, but they got him out of his contract with the label he was with, so he could sign with Columbia. OTOH, The Eagles, Fleetwood Mac and others have taken well over a year and spent millions to make records that weren't necessarily great and slide into the range of just being pretentious.

One thing people forget about music- it's not about the recording quality, it's about the songwriting and performance. I worked with someone who called said he was an audiophile and talked about his equipment and his Enya albums. That's about all he listened to. I asked "What's the point?" and he didn't want to talk to me after that. Oh, well.
 

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