Vinyl and seperates

MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
WmAx said:
First and foremost, I completely agree that it seems to be an oxymoron. But the confusion may arrise from the context of specifically which part of the test is subjective, and which specific definition of subjective may be used in the context(subjective has several definitions).

Perhaps some confusion arises from what is known as the age-old stereotype of what subjective is usually asociated with in audio: purely uncontrolled perceptions, probably the Forer effect in many cases. But a subjective evaluation can be performed with controls in place, to limit the extent of subjective response or what influences such. The use of this term could also be used in a capacity meaning to create a subjective experience, as in subjecting person to particular samples; subjected(submitted) to a certain stimulus.



Not entirely true. You can quantify preferences, through statistical value, via a controlled test environment in order to find a pattern of (subjective) reactions to a controlled experience. The scientific component rests in the elimination of external factors/variables to create a properly structured experiment, that shall analyze only the intended factors.

For example: You could find out which two experimental soda formulas were preferred by submiting a randomized blind test to many subjects. The actual act of tasting and preference is subjective, but all external factors would be eliminated leaving only responses based only upon the taste of the product. The statistical score of the completed tests would demonstrate a percentile quantification of preference for each formula, within the narrowly defined conditions of the test scenario(s).



The issue is not to measure perception, as a quantification. It is to find a preference in this case. There is no reason that this could not be accomplished, if the proper protocols were put into place. One could set up an experiment similar to the bandwidth test, but compare direct phonograph play to phonograph routed through a PCM 44.1kHz/16 bit ADC-->DAC convertor with very low latency. A standard random A B vs X experiment could be used to switch between the two for the blind testing. The ADC-->DAC convertor, of course, would be measured and ensured to be working under known human thresholds for the relevant parameters(THD, level matched, frequency response, etc.). If with statistically significant results, the subject or subjects could reliably identify analog from digital processed version, then it would demonstrate strong probability of difference(tenative, and dependant on peer review/critical review of the test procedures). The test could also be expanded to include a form/questionare component, that when applied under these blinded/controlled conditions, could be used to see if a reliable/consistant response could be achieved. The actual judgement/evaluation on the human interaction level would be considered subjective, but yet this would be a scientifically valid experiment due to the established controls/experimental structure/statistical power. In this experiment, the subjects would have no reasonable probability of cheating or being affected by unintended/external stimuli. Of course, if the test ended up with null results(this is probable, based on current research and knowledge of human auditory senses), then you could argue that it was not a subjective test since preference never entered the equation; i.e.; no audible difference was detected thus no valid subjective opinons would be present on the questionare portion of the blind trials.

-Chris

So, How may people have to tell you that audibility is not a scientific term until it's quantified before you believe it? Or must you read it somewhere?
 
Last edited:
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
WmAx said:
First and foremost, I completely agree that it seems to be an oxymoron. But the confusion may arrise from the context of specifically which part of the test is subjective, and which specific definition of subjective may be used in the context(subjective has several definitions).

Perhaps some confusion arises from what is known as the age-old stereotype of what subjective is usually asociated with in audio: purely uncontrolled perceptions, probably the Forer effect in many cases. But a subjective evaluation can be performed with controls in place, to limit the extent of subjective response or what influences such. The use of this term could also be used in a capacity meaning to create a subjective experience, as in subjecting person to particular samples; subjected(submitted) to a certain stimulus.



Not entirely true. You can quantify preferences, through statistical value, via a controlled test environment in order to find a pattern of (subjective) reactions to a controlled experience. The scientific component rests in the elimination of external factors/variables to create a properly structured experiment, that shall analyze only the intended factors.

For example: You could find out which two experimental soda formulas were preferred by submiting a randomized blind test to many subjects. The actual act of tasting and preference is subjective, but all external factors would be eliminated leaving only responses based only upon the taste of the product. The statistical score of the completed tests would demonstrate a percentile quantification of preference for each formula, within the narrowly defined conditions of the test scenario(s).



The issue is not to measure perception, as a quantification. It is to find a preference in this case. There is no reason that this could not be accomplished, if the proper protocols were put into place. One could set up an experiment similar to the bandwidth test, but compare direct phonograph play to phonograph routed through a PCM 44.1kHz/16 bit ADC-->DAC convertor with very low latency. A standard random A B vs X experiment could be used to switch between the two for the blind testing. The ADC-->DAC convertor, of course, would be measured and ensured to be working under known human thresholds for the relevant parameters(THD, level matched, frequency response, etc.). If with statistically significant results, the subject or subjects could reliably identify analog from digital processed version, then it would demonstrate strong probability of difference(tenative, and dependant on peer review/critical review of the test procedures). The test could also be expanded to include a form/questionare component, that when applied under these blinded/controlled conditions, could be used to see if a reliable/consistant response could be achieved. The actual judgement/evaluation on the human interaction level would be considered subjective, but yet this would be a scientifically valid experiment due to the established controls/experimental structure/statistical power. In this experiment, the subjects would have no reasonable probability of cheating or being affected by unintended/external stimuli. Of course, if the test ended up with null results(this is probable, based on current research and knowledge of human auditory senses), then you could argue that it was not a subjective test since preference never entered the equation; i.e.; no audible difference was detected thus no valid subjective opinons would be present on the questionare portion of the blind trials.

-Chris
Geezus, did your ancestors interpret the Bible? I have to agree with a previous post you missed your calling in politics. I bet you can define "run" more ways than a dictionary.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
One more thing

WmAx said:
First and foremost, I completely agree that it seems to be an oxymoron. But the confusion may arrise from the context of specifically which part of the test is subjective, and which specific definition of subjective may be used in the context(subjective has several definitions).

Perhaps some confusion arises from what is known as the age-old stereotype of what subjective is usually asociated with in audio: purely uncontrolled perceptions, probably the Forer effect in many cases. But a subjective evaluation can be performed with controls in place, to limit the extent of subjective response or what influences such. The use of this term could also be used in a capacity meaning to create a subjective experience, as in subjecting person to particular samples; subjected(submitted) to a certain stimulus.



Not entirely true. You can quantify preferences, through statistical value, via a controlled test environment in order to find a pattern of (subjective) reactions to a controlled experience. The scientific component rests in the elimination of external factors/variables to create a properly structured experiment, that shall analyze only the intended factors.

For example: You could find out which two experimental soda formulas were preferred by submiting a randomized blind test to many subjects. The actual act of tasting and preference is subjective, but all external factors would be eliminated leaving only responses based only upon the taste of the product. The statistical score of the completed tests would demonstrate a percentile quantification of preference for each formula, within the narrowly defined conditions of the test scenario(s).



The issue is not to measure perception, as a quantification. It is to find a preference in this case. There is no reason that this could not be accomplished, if the proper protocols were put into place. One could set up an experiment similar to the bandwidth test, but compare direct phonograph play to phonograph routed through a PCM 44.1kHz/16 bit ADC-->DAC convertor with very low latency. A standard random A B vs X experiment could be used to switch between the two for the blind testing. The ADC-->DAC convertor, of course, would be measured and ensured to be working under known human thresholds for the relevant parameters(THD, level matched, frequency response, etc.). If with statistically significant results, the subject or subjects could reliably identify analog from digital processed version, then it would demonstrate strong probability of difference(tenative, and dependant on peer review/critical review of the test procedures). The test could also be expanded to include a form/questionare component, that when applied under these blinded/controlled conditions, could be used to see if a reliable/consistant response could be achieved. The actual judgement/evaluation on the human interaction level would be considered subjective, but yet this would be a scientifically valid experiment due to the established controls/experimental structure/statistical power. In this experiment, the subjects would have no reasonable probability of cheating or being affected by unintended/external stimuli. Of course, if the test ended up with null results(this is probable, based on current research and knowledge of human auditory senses), then you could argue that it was not a subjective test since preference never entered the equation; i.e.; no audible difference was detected thus no valid subjective opinons would be present on the questionare portion of the blind trials.

-Chris

First of all I would like to apologize, I didn’t realize that DVD audio was sampled at 192 KHz.


Second of all, if 44.1 KHz is so great why is DVD audio so much better? Also, why do all the reviews of all DVD audio, even 2 channel recordings, get superior reviews?


Isn’t THAT audibility?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
MacManNM said:
Second of all, if 44.1 KHz is so great why is DVD audio so much better?
See below.

Also, why do all the reviews of all DVD audio, even 2 channel recordings, get superior reviews?
Considering stereo versions, it would appear that some DVD-A and SACD discs are not even based on the same mix and/or master as the CD. If one found a version that was, and confirmed such through analysis of the waveforms on the recordings -- then a proper double blind test scenario must be utilized. However, it would probably be easier(more practical) to take a 192kHz PCM source data and resample/dither to 44.1kHz/16 bit PCM.

-Chris
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
WmAx said:
See below.



Considering stereo versions, it would appear that some DVD-A and SACD discs are not even based on the same mix and/or master as the CD. If one found a version that was, and confirmed such through analysis of the waveforms on the recordings -- then a proper double blind test scenario must be utilized. However, it would probably be easier(more practical) to take a 192kHz PCM source data and resample/dither to 44.1kHz/16 bit PCM.

-Chris
Test, test, test, the reviews say it. Your beat, admit it.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
MacManNM said:
Test, test, test, the reviews say it. Your beat, admit it.
Yes, of course, everyone knows that reviews are the end-all and be-all for informational reference.

?

-Chris
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Chris,

Unlike lossy data coding schemes such as Dolby Digital or DTS, which remove some of the original audio data that is viewed as "perceptionally" not significant, MLP allows exact, bit-for-bit reconstruction of the original, uncompressed signal on playback. MLP (lossless data-compression technology called Meridian Lossless Packing) does not alter the final decoded signal in any way. It works just like the WinZip software that compresses and fully restores computer data exactly bit-for-bit. With MLP, a single-sided DVD-Audio disc can record over two hours of 6-channel 24-bit/96 kHz audio or over two hours of 24-bit/192 kHz stereo with all of the audio content completely and accurately preserved and reproduced, achieving the ultimate in fidelity which is truely amazing. DVD-Audio also uses the PCM audio standard but with quality that is significantly higher. DVD-Audio can deliver up to 24-bit/192 kHz in stereo--More than four times the frequency of that of a CD, which is only 16-bit/44.1 kHz. The higher sample size and sampling rate translate to amazing stereo sound quality, giving you a precise sound stage with great depth and solidity. DVD-Audio also can deliver 6 channels of music at up to 24-bit/96 kHz resolutions, giving you 5 times more details than traditional audio-CDs. Full 6-channel surround in high fidelity PCM creates a sound field with the ambience and fullness of a live performance. DVD-Audio’s greater dynamic range and higher frequency response allow for outstanding clarity and more realistic recordings. It gives any audio a liveliness and expression that is not possible on a CD.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
WmAx said:
Yes, of course, everyone knows that reviews are the end-all and be-all for informational reference.

?

-Chris
Just like AUDIBILITY in your papers. The problem has been fixed and I didnt even know it. Why do you think 192KHz is the new standard?
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
WmAx said:
Yes, of course, everyone knows that reviews are the end-all and be-all for informational reference.

?

-Chris
Yikes, stop it Bart!
 

Attachments

WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Chris,

Unlike lossy data coding schemes such as Dolby Digital or DTS, which remove some of the original audio data that is viewed as "perceptionally" not significant, MLP allows exact, bit-for-bit reconstruction of the original, uncompressed signal on playback. MLP (lossless data-compression technology called Meridian Lossless Packing) does not alter the final decoded signal in any way. It works just like the WinZip software that compresses and fully restores computer data exactly bit-for-bit. With MLP, a single-sided DVD-Audio disc can record over two hours of 6-channel 24-bit/96 kHz audio or over two hours of 24-bit/192 kHz stereo with all of the audio content completely and accurately preserved and reproduced, achieving the ultimate in fidelity which is truely amazing. DVD-Audio also uses the PCM audio standard but with quality that is significantly higher. DVD-Audio can deliver up to 24-bit/192 kHz in stereo--More than four times the frequency of that of a CD, which is only 16-bit/44.1 kHz. The higher sample size and sampling rate translate to amazing stereo sound quality, giving you a precise sound stage with great depth and solidity. DVD-Audio also can deliver 6 channels of music at up to 24-bit/96 kHz resolutions, giving you 5 times more details than traditional audio-CDs. Full 6-channel surround in high fidelity PCM creates a sound field with the ambience and fullness of a live performance. DVD-Audio’s greater dynamic range and higher frequency response allow for outstanding clarity and more realistic recordings. It gives any audio a liveliness and expression that is not possible on a CD.
I'm not sure what you chose to type this. I have not discussed DVD-A, except for the mention of stereo mode or mastering, in reply to the other poster.

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
MacManNM said:
Just like AUDIBILITY in your papers. The problem has been fixed and I didnt even know it. Why do you think 192KHz is the new standard?
Why should I speculate?

But, it's not based on valid scientific studies demonstrating it offers an audible difference compared to a 44.1kHz sample rate.

Maybe, like you, it's origins are based in deep speculation and conjecture?

-Chris
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
WmAx said:
I'm not sure what you chose to type this. I have not discussed DVD-A, except for the mention of stereo mode or mastering, in reply to the other poster.

-Chris
"some DVD-A and SACD discs are not even based on the same mix and/or master as the CD. If one found a version that was, and confirmed such through analysis of the waveforms on the recordings -- then a proper double blind test scenario must be utilized. "

It's true that the higher sample rate is significantly better. So your argument on the 44.1 Khz doesn't hold water.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Buckeyefan 1 said:
"some DVD-A and SACD discs are not even based on the same mix and/or master as the CD. If one found a version that was, and confirmed such through analysis of the waveforms on the recordings -- then a proper double blind test scenario must be utilized. "

It's true that the higher sample rate is significantly better. So your argument on the 44.1 Khz doesn't hold water.
Okay -- once again you lost me(as to why you are posting what you are posting). You affirmed my reply was indeed what I said it was?

As for "better" -- If you mean audibly: based on what research?

-Chris
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
WmAx said:
Okay -- once again you lost me. You affirmed my reply was indeed what I said it was?

As for 'better'? If you audibly, then based on what research?

-Chris

How about the NEW industry standard?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
MacManNM said:
How about the NEW industry standard?
Tip: If don't comprehend a question -- you probably should not answer.

-Chris
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
WmAx said:
Tip: If don't comprehend a question -- you probably should not answer.

-Chris
I believe it was quite clear:
192KHz is superior. Do you not agree?

Tip: Actually read the post
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
MacManNM said:
I believe it was quite clear:
192KHz is superior. Do you not agree?

Tip: Actually read the post
Let's examine the post and replies that are subject here(for fun!):

I typed(Responding directly to Buckeye):

Okay -- once again you lost me. You affirmed my reply was indeed what I said it was?

As for 'better'? If you audibly, then based on what research?


You replied to this post, stating:

How about the NEW industry standard?

The answer you provided does not fit the first question. So, let's apply it to the second question. But you did not answer the question, since I conditioned the question by stating "As for "better"? If you audibly, then based on what research?"

I did correct the post for sentence structure, but apparently you replied before that edit was complete. But the question is still the same. Do you believe that your answer of: "How about the NEW industry standard?" is the research confirming audibility improvement of hi-rez audio, of which I inquired? Which journal of engineering or science is "How about the NEW industry standard?" research published within?

-Chris
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Buckeyefan 1 It's true that the higher sample rate is significantly better. So your argument on the 44.1 Khz doesn't hold water.[/QUOTE said:
You base this on what evidence? Credible or just one of those biased reviews, or many of them?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
MacManNM said:
I believe it was quite clear:
192KHz is superior. Do you not agree?

Tip: Actually read the post
It is technically superior. I agree. It has not been shows to be audibly superior in scientifically valid, peer-reviewed research.

-Chris
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
WmAx said:
Let's examine the post and replies that are subject here(for fun!):

I typed(Responding directly to Buckeye):

Okay -- once again you lost me. You affirmed my reply was indeed what I said it was?

As for 'better'? If you audibly, then based on what research?


You replied to this post, stating:

How about the NEW industry standard?

The answer you provided does not fit the first question. So, let's apply it to the second question. But you did not answer the question, since I conditioned the question by stating "As for "better"? If you audibly, then based on what research?"

I did correct the post for sentence structure, but apparently you replied before that edit was complete. But the question is still the same. Do you believe that your answer of: "How about the NEW industry standard?" is the research confirming audibility improvement of hi-rez audio, of which I inquired?

-Chris
Why would the industry, money based, decide to put more money into equipment ( The faster the digitizer the more $$$$) if it wasn't a vast improvement over the former?
 

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