Vinyl and seperates

[nibhaz]

Satisfaction is in the eye of the beholder.

Drop that Timex out your car door or take it down 300 meters, and we'll see which tells time better.

Set the Rolex in a drawer for a month and set the Timex next to it, in a month tell me which keeps better time? 300m underwater…launch both into space see which gives better time.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

So why didn't you buy the cheapest KLH receiver at Best Buy?

I guess your Cobalt wires really make a difference, too.

You wear your Timex, and be happy with it knowning you have the most accurate, ugly piece of jewelry your father wouldn't wear to a pig roast.

 

[MacManNM]

Set the Rolex in a drawer for a month and set the Timex next to it, in a month tell me which keeps better time? 300m underwater…launch both into space see which gives better time.

I dont own a rolex, but I'm sure there would be a significant delta there. Thats why they're called the most accurate timepiece in the world, but this forum is about audio not time. Although it does take time to discuss audio. Far out.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Set the Rolex in a drawer for a month and set the Timex next to it, in a month tell me which keeps better time? 300m underwater…launch both into space see which gives better time.

How much money do you have in the bank?

 

[nibhaz]

So a set of emerson speakers sound as good as your B&W's?

No sir they would not, nor do I propose that the Kuzma tonearm performs less than or equal to the tonearm that comes with a $150 Technics turntable. My point was that I would not simply be wowed by a price tag when asked if I would argue with someone that owns an 8k tonearm. I understand that you prefer the sound of analog pathways, but the truth of matter is that today’s digital technology has by far surpassed the days of vinyl. But I will concede that even though the format is superior the mastering that is being done these days leaves much to be desired and from here perhaps we can find common ground.

 

[nibhaz]

So why didn't you buy the cheapest KLH receiver at Best Buy?

I guess your Cobalt wires really make a difference, too.

You wear your Timex, and be happy with it knowning you have the most accurate, ugly piece of jewelry your father wouldn't wear to a pig roast.

I have my cobalt cables purely for aesthetics, good sir! But was does that matter...I never made a claim that they preformed better than some soundking 12ga from partsexpress. Nor would I!

 

[MacManNM]

No sir they would not, nor do I propose that the Kuzma tonearm performs less than or equal to the tonearm that comes with a $150 Technics turntable. My point was that I would not simply be wowed by a price tag when asked if I would argue with someone that owns an 8k tonearm. I understand that you prefer the sound of analog pathways, but the truth of matter is that today’s digital technology has by far surpassed the days of vinyl. But I will concede that even though the format is superior the mastering that is being done these days leaves much to be desired and from here perhaps we can find common ground.

That, my friend, is my entire point. Until audio comes up to speed with technology, there will be this bridge. When I can sit in my easy chair, close my eyes, and in my minds eye still see the performers in front of me, that is when this is truly done. For me the digital, the recievers ,and gear of today cant do that. I will stick with my old school stuff until it becomes a reality

 

[nibhaz]

That, my friend, is my entire point. Until audio comes up to speed with technology, there will be this bridge. When I can sit in my easy chair, close my eyes, and in my minds eye still see the performers in front of me, that is when this is truly done. For me the digital, the recievers ,and gear of today cant do that. I will stick with my old school stuff until it becomes a reality

That's what it's all about! That warm fuzzy feeling...lifted to another place and time. How each of us gets there is different, but as long as we're there that's all that really matters.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I have my cobalt cables purely for aesthetics, good sir! But was does that matter...I never made a claim that they preformed better than some soundking 12ga from partsexpress. Nor would I!

But you did say and possibly assume a Rolex owner would argue his timepiece keeps better time than a Timex quartz. Bad assumption. You miss the point that a Rolex owner buys his timepiece for durability over accuracy (although I'm guessing not many Rolex owners have to adjust their watches very often), and among other reasons, it's one of the finest timepieces available.

This from a nutcase watch guy (like us nutcase audioholics): "My $130 Seiko sna139 quartz is more accurate than my Omega Constellation quartz ($2500). I set them at the same time several weeks ago and the Seiko is closer to the atomic clock than my Omega by about 6 seconds." Whoa, it's off a second a week. You win.


Just an FYI... Go with 12 awg romex. Solid wire sounds better than stranded.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What? You are not listeing the the digital waveform from Cd or any digital software.
Digital data is actually more accurate than the limited analog ever can be. One only has to review the research and papers on this, not folklore, mythology and audio voodoo.

Oh, your analog is even less than the 12 or 13 bits you speculate about. You will find out when you dig into the technical papers, not internet voodoo.


How can you not be listening to the digital waveform? is it converted from 1's & 0's by magic? Any analog-digital or digital-analog conversion is limited by the analog bandwith of the digitizer, the sample rate, and the # of effective bits. 16 effective bits is a little over 5 orders of magnitude, or about 53 db. are you saying that you cant make an analog recording that has 53db of dynamic range?

No need fror further discussions before you look into this further since 16 bits give a 96dB dynamic range, a number of orders above vinyl, not to mention all the other junk problkems with vinyl, like distortion, frequency response issues, and on.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Are you going to argue with the guy who just slapped $8000 on this tonearm?

http://stereophile.com/analogsourcereviews/804kuzma/

WOW. Nice arm. The cartridge and the vinyl is still the limiting parts

Cannot get around that very poor medium.

 

[mtrycrafts]

A 3 chan analog recording would reproduce music better than an encoded software enhanced recording.

Sheer speculation, of course.


You have 2 ears, in a live performance the performer is playing in front of you, everything else you hear is caused by the enviorment surrounding you. Movies, i agree surround and multi chan is the way to go, but to reproduce music it dosnt work.

Just as I thought.
This old voodoo argument is so old. Your two ears and the two sources of information has nothing to do with each other. Not the reason why only two speakers were used in the past, from the 50's as before it was only 1 speaker for that one channel
Your two ears gets information from each instrument, a speaker by themselves, and receives information from half a hemisphere of space, not two sources. At home, you have a predominance of direct sound with limited spacial direction except up front between the speakers and some reflections. Multi channel is needed to recreate the spacial information orders better. Two just cannot do so.
That is from the experts, not me. Sorry, you are mistaken.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

Cannot get around that very poor medium.

Nor do I want to get around it. That "poor medium" still sounds superior to my ears. It has a warmth to it that seems lacking in digital. Music is analog. The way to listen to it is through quality analog reproducers. Truly there is a sterility to digital. I believe if you've grown up with digital that's how you think the music should sound. It's like if you grow up eating instant potatoes and thinking they taste smoother than real potatoes. Or thinking that Prago or Ragu is actually good spaghetti sauce.

 

[slopoke]

Let's get to the real point.

There's a radio jock here in Chicago that's renowned for his rock music collection and how he cares for it. On day I was driving to work and he put on a CD, let it play about 20 seconds, pulled it off, said "that's awfull listen to this". He then put on the original vinyl and even over a crappy car radio I could hear the difference.

So, is a first play vinyl recording better than a CD? No doubt about it. But you need that 8K tonearm for it still to be better after 10 plays.

As for the electronics, if I get a good set of full range speakers (I can still buy new Klipschorns by the way) and set my fronts to large and my input to "direct" and input from my CD player through a standard RCA connection then the signal path is still completely analog after the CD player's DAC.

I'd like to hear anyone explain how the lack of headroom in a 15 watt/channel amp is better than my 110 watts/channel. And I don't want to hear about tubes sounding better than solid state because that's only true when they're distorting (very possible with that 15 watt job) and I don't want any distortion to color my music.

As for dynamic range, we now have SACD and DVD-Audio that completely blow away vinyl. It's the lack of standards and software that's the problem here.

Which brings us to the real issue - the recording industry. They compress the hell out of everything to bring the average volume level up. They give you a choice of Brittany or Btittany. They cant even give you a standard audio format and whith Blu-Ray etc the movies are headed in the same direction. So what is really being argued here is: were the old recordings better than the newer ones?

YES!!

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

maybe so, with your fancy tube audio seperates and white-gold divers watches, but in the end, it all comes down to one thing: I have the bigger penis.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So what is really being argued here is: were the old recordings better than the newer ones?

YES!!

Perhaps over the poorly recorded ones. But then, there are superior Cds out there that vinyl medium just cannot ever hope to see at the end of the tunnel

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

Perhaps over the poorly recorded ones. But then, there are superior Cds out there that vinyl medium just cannot ever hope to see at the end of the tunnel

I guess I haven't heard them yet.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Nor do I want to get around it. That "poor medium" still sounds superior to my ears.

Oh, nothing wrong with that. After all, your preference cannot be tested very well.


It has a warmth to it that seems lacking in digital.

Well, that is yet another perception if you like euphonic reproduction of the original music.

Music is analog.

But the signal to your brain is not. It is in packets of digital signals. However, so is the music from a CD at the speaker terminals. And, very accurate to the original master recorded, a far cry for vinyls.


The way to listen to it is through quality analog reproducers.


Yes, speakers need to be good and that is what many speaker makers are working on, accuracy and low distortion at all levels of input.


[ Truly there is a sterility to digital.

No. Truly it is very accurate to the mastering.

I believe if you've grown up with digital that's how you think the music should sound.

Actually I used to listen to vinyl a lot. Not convincing compared to a good CD of it.

Or thinking that Prago or Ragu is actually good spaghetti sauce.

I'd like to do a good DBT on this

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

hehe. actually when I spoke of quality analog reproducers, I meant at the beginning of the signal, the needle and cartridge, not the output.

What's a DBT?

 

[mtrycrafts]

hehe. actually when I spoke of quality analog reproducers, I meant at the beginning of the signal, the needle and cartridge, not the output.

What's a DBT?

The don't help that much. It still has to track that vinyl medium, a mechanical process, converts to electrical signals.

You may want to read about this here:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_frm/thread/b5b3d74ebf5195d9/653de88007541118?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&prev=/groups?hl=en&group=rec.audio.high-end#653de88007541118

And This

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_frm/thread/759d781c924238c7/2fa1f85a2a7c985b?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&prev=/groups?hl=en&group=rec.audio.high-end#2fa1f85a2a7c985b


DBT=double blind test- eliminates biases by statistical analysis of ones guesses You don't know when the X component is in play and you have to guess as that is it most of the time.