• Thread starter Motor city madman
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It does have a loudness button the manual says it’s for low volume listening it sounded better not using it to me.
Just curious, as the bass boost/treble boost it provides might have fit your description somewhat.
 
M

Motor city madman

Enthusiast
@Motor city madman I bet you had the loudness button depressed. ;) Just kidding! Ah, lovinthehd beat me to it.

One thing that might help is to listen to only the Sansui for a while. When switching back and forth it's easy to have perceived bias. You can help reduce perceived bias by getting used to the receiver for a while, like over a weekend, playing a variety of material. When the euphoria of having nice vintage gear wears off, switch back to the Yamaha in pure/direct mode again.

There can be issues with simple listening tests though. Please allow me to elaborate. I would assume that the Yamaha and Emotiva have relatively flat frequency responses, given that they are modern amps. What if the Sansui has a bump in the lower frequencies? That receiver is going to sound like it has better bass output, when strictly speaking it is not really better because it is not as flat (and most audiophiles seek that truly flat response). What you could be hearing is colouration in lower frequencies that gives the impression of having more depth and punch. So it's not a matter of one being better than the other, but one having a frequency response that happens to be more to your liking. If the Emotiva has 200W/ch I doubt that it would be lacking dynamic range as the Sansui only has 125W/ch by comparison.
You could be right maybe that's what I like, I had A Yamaha rx-a2010 with the Emotiva hooked to that for years so I know pretty much what it can do and sounds like. I had the Sansui for a couple weeks before I took it in to have it cleaned and checked out and during that time I listened a lot.
 
M

Motor city madman

Enthusiast
To be clear, I believe you when you say you can hear a difference. Placebo and sighted bias are very real and it gets everyone. All it would take is one paragraph 1 minute before you hear it for the first time and your expectations are primed. I wouldn't trust myself without some controls and blind, instant switching. Level matching is good, but critical because a difference of even less than 1 dB can make one sound livelier or clearer than the other.

This kind of comparison is really tricky because there are so many factors to account for, and sighted comparisons are known to be inaccurate. I'm unaware of any properly conducted DBT involving cables or amps, with all else being equal, where anyone was able to do any better than chance guessing which was which. Those night and day differences just disappear when the subjects don't know which is which, even with instant switching.

Do a Google search on placebo effect and read up on it. I did, and I was very surprised to learn there's a lot more to it than I'd previously thought. Your brain and other senses absolutely alter what you hear, see or taste in surprising ways. There were some interesting experiments with wine tasting too. Just changing the label on the bottle was enough to fool professional wine tasters.
I get what you are saying but I wanted it to be the other way. I have a crap ton of money rapped up in my system and I wanted to say it was way better. But it just wasn't. Before I ever had the Sansui I was already looking at new amps because I moved and had more room to start adding more speakers. When I heard the Sansui I started thinking maybe I need a bigger amp or a different kind. What makes a 5000 dollar 5 channel Mcintosh any different then the Emotiva? These are just some questions that I started thinking about and why I came on here .
 
M

Motor city madman

Enthusiast
With the way the unit warmed up very slowly I also wonder if its at full health. What if you took it to be serviced and that special sauce gets repaired to flatness like your other gear?
I had no idea when the last time it was ever turned on and I thought it was odd it took that long. All the sudden little by little it started making static so I turned the fm dial a little with no antenna and found a station and started hearing voices and they just got louder and louder. It played pretty well after it was on for a while so I hope they wont have to do much. Some of the dials had some static and I had a few lights that would go on and off. But yes I hope it does not change much.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I had no idea when the last time it was ever turned on and I thought it was odd it took that long. All the sudden little by little it started making static so I turned the fm dial a little with no antenna and found a station and started hearing voices and they just got louder and louder. It played pretty well after it was on for a while so I hope they wont have to do much. Some of the dials had some static and I had a few lights that would go on and off. But yes I hope it does not change much.
Likely the pots could use a cleaning with appropriate stuff. Sometimes with a unit that's been sitting a very long time you want to bring it up slowly with the help of something like a Variac where you can slowly increase voltage...but good luck on the results post-servicing. This is the sort of experience I'd like to come over and hear for myself....just haven't had this sort of thing with a fairly wide variety of gear, and I used quite a bit of stuff like that when it was new....
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
I get what you are saying but I wanted it to be the other way. I have a crap ton of money rapped up in my system and I wanted to say it was way better. But it just wasn't. Before I ever had the Sansui I was already looking at new amps because I moved and had more room to start adding more speakers. When I heard the Sansui I started thinking maybe I need a bigger amp or a different kind. What makes a 5000 dollar 5 channel Mcintosh any different then the Emotiva? These are just some questions that I started thinking about and why I came on here .
The common wisdom around here is that most amps, when operated and used within spec, don't have any real audible differences. There are exceptions like tube amps or maybe some esoteric products out there that aren't designed to be accurate, but by and large they all have the same design goal. Accuracy. These companies have been making good quality, accurate amplification for a long time now and the good ones have it down.

The way I see it, if you can truly hear that big a difference and everything was equal, then I would think something is not right with one of the units. There should not be a big night and day difference. Amps should not affect soundstage, for one. For another, an amp with half the power should absolutely not be more dynamic. Dynamics are related to spl, and the more power you have, the more headroom and dynamic spl you have.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
.... I had spl meter close to listening position tried to get them both at same level 75 db or so . But I am telling you that didn’t matter one had much more punch depth and bass then the other. I never thought those skinny speakers could play like that. Maybe I didn’t do everything exactly right doing it that way but it was all I could think of.
Not the way to level match the two gear, certainly not a music disc nor an spl meter, sorry.
You need a test disc with a sine wave, like 1kHz and see what the voltage is at the speaker terminal, 2 decimal place at least, with each receiver you are comparing, same CD player and disc.
Voltage difference within 1%. Anything less is well .... Good luck.

If you like it just use it. You'd need a good DBT protocol to determine audible differences so don't agonize and just enjoy it.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
If you like it just use it. You'd need a good DBT protocol to determine audible differences so don't agonize and just enjoy it.
Yes. This. You're right.

I'm not saying that your new amp isn't good. If you like it and it sounds great, enjoy it. I'm getting a little hung up on the science, but it's coming from a good place. I learned a lot about sighted testing, placebo and expectation bias and found out there's a lot more to it than I knew. It's fascinating really. Everything you perceive is filtered through your brain, and it can interpret things differently depending on other sensory input. That's why double blind testing exists. Sighted testing or foreknowledge biases the results. It's a testable phenomenon and it affects all of us.

There isn't a lot out there on the subject because DBTs are not easy to set up and get right. Check this one out.

 

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