Using T-amp in existing system?

[project86]

My dad used to have a very nice setup consisting of a late 70s McIntosh tube receiver, an old Dual turntable, a Nakamichi tape deck, and some huge Altec Iconic speakers. They had their living room redone, and all this stuff got put into storage in another room. We went to hook it up recently and the receiver doesn't work. I would like to get it fixed at some point, but not now.

In the mean time, we picked up a cheap HTiB system so he could have some tunes. It is a cheap Magnavox unit, but it plays DVD's and CD's, and it works for him.

Without spending a lot of $$, I'd like to get his Altec speakers back in use. I hooked them up with the Magnavox, and it sounded better than the tiny surround speakers, but still no where near as good as they did before.

My idea was to build an amp6 kit from 41hz, and use that to drive the Altec speakers, since it has fairly similar specs as his McIntosh did. What would be the best way to integrate that into the setup? It would be even better to use those as mains, and still keep the surrounds for watching movies.

The Magnavox unit he has is an MRD200, it has various analog line outputs. Could I just use those to go out to the amp6, then from there to the Altecs?

 

[WmAx]

My dad used to have a very nice setup consisting of a late 70s McIntosh tube receiver, an old Dual turntable, a Nakamichi tape deck, and some huge Altec Iconic speakers. They had their living room redone, and all this stuff got put into storage in another room. We went to hook it up recently and the receiver doesn't work. I would like to get it fixed at some point, but not now.

In the mean time, we picked up a cheap HTiB system so he could have some tunes. It is a cheap Magnavox unit, but it plays DVD's and CD's, and it works for him.

Without spending a lot of $$, I'd like to get his Altec speakers back in use. I hooked them up with the Magnavox, and it sounded better than the tiny surround speakers, but still no where near as good as they did before.

My idea was to build an amp6 kit from 41hz, and use that to drive the Altec speakers, since it has fairly similar specs as his McIntosh did. What would be the best way to integrate that into the setup? It would be even better to use those as mains, and still keep the surrounds for watching movies.

The Magnavox unit he has is an MRD200, it has various analog line outputs. Could I just use those to go out to the amp6, then from there to the Altecs?

If that kit is based on the same chip as the T-Amp which you mentioned in your headline, then the speakers need to be very efficient(probably >95dB/1 watt/1 meter), less you desire compression/clipping on dynamic components of music, especially select classical music. Of course, if the only purpose here is for background music, then there is no need for an amplifier with greater power than a T-Amp produces.

You would do (much) better to find a used 1980's Onkyo(or other reputable brand from that era) stereo receiver, for example. Cost should be about the same as the kit. If you don't mind spending more, and want a very high quality(technically) and reasonably high power amp that can drive virtually any complexity of load, go for a Behringer A500. They cost $180 USD in the United States. The only downside to the A500, IMO, is that they chose to use a molded plastic front face, in spite of the rest of the chassis being made from heavy steel and aluminum. The plastic face does lend to a cheap 'look', regardless of it's outstanding technical performance for the dollar.

-Chris

 

[Seth=L]

If that kit is based on the same chip as the T-Amp which you mentioned in your headline, then the speakers need to be very efficient(probably >95dB/1 watt/1 meter), less you desire compression/clipping on dynamic components of music, especially select classical music. Of course, if the only purpose here is for background music, then there is no need for an amplifier with greater power than a T-Amp produces.

You would do (much) better to find a used 1980's Onkyo(or other reputable brand from that era) stereo receiver, for example. Cost should be about the same as the kit. If you don't mind spending more, and want a very high quality(technically) and reasonably high power amp that can drive virtually any complexity of load, go for a Behringer A500. They cost $180 USD in the United States. The only downside to the A500, IMO, is that they chose to use a molded plastic front face, in spite of the rest of the chassis being made from heavy steel and aluminum. The plastic face does lend to a cheap 'look', regardless of it's outstanding technical performance for the dollar.

-Chris

Not to mention he would need a pre/amp to use the A500 well.

 

[project86]

First of all, I apologize for not being more clear. The amp6 kit is available from www.41hz.com and is a Tripath based amp similar to the sonic impact T-amp.

I've been under the impression that T-amps (although rated a lot lower than most solid state amps) do great for powering many speakers. My dad's old McIntosh tube amp was only rated around 15 watts per channel and it made some amazing sound. One reviewer stated "Owners of >90dB speakers, small listening rooms or moderate listening level habits..." will love T-amps. My dad's Altecs are at least high 90s if not higher (I can't pinpoint the exact specs since there were so many variations made through the years), and his room is not huge.


So far I can find reviews of various Tripath based units using the following speakers and sounding great:

IPL Acoustics A2
Avantgarde Duo 2.0
Omega Super 3
Almarro M0A

All of these are considered fairly efficient, but so are my dad's Altecs, so it should be fine.

My biggest question is really this: would it be acceptable to use the line out from the receiver, to get the signal to the amp6, and then out to the speakers from there?

 

[Seth=L]

With speakers as efficient as you say they are. There shouldn't be a problem with power. I would be more concerned with the sound quality of the T-amplifiers. I would think that it would lack dynamic range, and noise pollution could be a potential prohblem.

 

[project86]

With speakers as efficient as you say they are. There shouldn't be a problem with power. I would be more concerned with the sound quality of the T-amplifiers. I would think that it would lack dynamic range, and noise pollution could be a potential prohblem.

Apparently you haven't read much about the T-amps.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact/t.html
"The Almarro, Fi and Yamamoto all play music wonderfully well, sound terrific and are relatively expensive. The Fi costs almost 100 x what you can buy a T-amp for over the Internet. Yet the little T-amp is not put to shame by any of them in its sound quality and ability to play music. I almost hesitate to confess that because I predict that some people will find it hard to swallow. But that's the way it is."

"The proof is in the listening, however. And there the Sonic Impact T-amp is an absolutely brilliant piece of equipment that revolutionizes sound quality performance at a true budget price. Prior to the T-amp, a great-sounding $39 amplifier was unheard of. That makes the Sonic Impact unparalleled. Heck, even for $390, it would be unparalleled - it's simply a really great little amplifier."

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/t-amp_e.html
"This amplifier is STUNNING. And the review could stop here."

"Warning: this has been the most thrilling and incredible experience I've had with a component in, say, 25 years of HiFi listening. This website has existed since 1995, I've reviewed hundreds of HiFi components, inexpensive and ridiculously overpriced ones. I never - repeat - NEVER came across such a stunning piece of gear in all of these years."

"We audiophiles are used to big amplifiers with massive power supplies, heavy cabinets etc in order to make our woofers dance. Now, looking at the way the Morel woofer of these Merlin's TSM moves back and forth driven by this tiny-weenie amp is something that destroys, in a second, all our well-established HiFi faiths. I don't know how this can be possible but it's here, in front of me and I can't help but try to describe it!"


Note that I have no personal experience with a T-amp, just read the incredible reviews. I am planning on building an Amp6 basic kit from 41hz.com, and using it for something... possibly for my dad, possibly for myself.

 

[WmAx]

Apparently you haven't read much about the T-amps.

I've read plenty about them. They are terrible amplifiers unless you have very efficient speakers. Fortunately for you(according to your last reply), you have very efficient speakers, and an amplifier that outputs 5-6 watts RMS will be sufficient. A 90dB/1W/1M speaker would not be sufficient for this amplifier, despite the re-viewer's text. To follow that advice would result in dynamic compression and heavy clipping on ANY dynamic music listened at even moderate(80 dB RMS, for example, on classical music with 20-30 dB peaks) volume levels. Of course, the average top 40 modern pop/rock music would sound fine at moderate volume levels, since no more than 12dB dynamic range is usually found on most modern recordings.

-Chris

 

[project86]

I see, thanks for the input. Another rather dumb question: does the analog line out portion of most receivers generally put out a constant signal? That is, it is not affected by the master volume knob/switch of the receiver? Because that could make a difference too... Dad is getting older and I'd like him to be able to use remote for volume.

 

[Seth=L]

I see, thanks for the input. Another rather dumb question: does the analog line out portion of most receivers generally put out a constant signal? That is, it is not affected by the master volume knob/switch of the receiver? Because that could make a difference too... Dad is getting older and I'd like him to be able to use remote for volume.

There are a few output connections on receivers today. Some receivers don't have all of them. The only one that all receivers share of the high-level outputs (speaker outputs).

The others include loop outputs, for analog recording devices, and these outputs do not adjust and functionality doesn't extend to outside the loop. So you can't use a tape out (or record out) to connect to an amplifier.

Next are preouts (preamplifier outputs). These are variable outputs that you can use to connect to an amplifier. Like high-level outputs, they will output whatever you tell the receiver to output. Essentially every receiver has preamplifier outputs inside the receiver to connect to the amplifier.

Digital outputs for digital recording devices.

Last are Zone outputs. Many receivers that have different zones have low-level outputs for secondary zones. This is also a variable output allowing you to adjust the volume seperate from the primary volume and using another source.

A line out is a fixed output from a line source. Examples: Tape player, CD player, or a VCR just to name a few.

Hope that answers the question.

 

[Seth=L]

Does the analog line out portion of most receivers generally put out a constant signal? That is, it is not affected by the master volume knob/switch of the receiver? Because that could make a difference too... Dad is getting older and I'd like him to be able to use remote for volume.

Quick question, what receiver does he have, are you talking about the Magnavox? If you already have a receiver for the job or plan on getting one, what is the point of the T-amp?

 

[project86]

He does have that Magnavox, model MRD200. Specs in the manual say 50 wpc X2 at a whopping 10% THD, I have no idea what it really does. But it just sounds like garbage.

It has the usual speaker level, optical, and digital outs (which we don't need of course), and then some analog outs simply labeled "Line Out." The line out is what I would be using to get the signal out to the T-amp.

 

[Seth=L]

He does have that Magnavox, model MRD200. Specs in the manual say 50 wpc X2 at a whopping 10% THD, I have no idea what it really does. But it just sounds like garbage.

It has the usual speaker level, optical, and digital outs (which we don't need of course), and then some analog outs simply labeled "Line Out." The line out is what I would be using to get the signal out to the T-amp.

The "line out" is not variable, meaning you cannot adjust the volume from the Magnavox. Secondly the preamplifier section of the Magnavox plays the biggest factor in the Garbage sound.

Have you considered just getting a receiver? How much did you spend on the Magnavox? Is it possible to return the Magnavox for your money back?

 

[highfihoney]

Slow Down A Bit.

Hi,before you go any further understand this,the gear your father has was top of the line high end hifi gear in its day & is still worth several thousand dollars,you should also understand that all the gear your thinking about replacing the reciever with is worthless junk junk in comparison,kinda like replacing the engine in a porsche with a fiat engine

Forget about the T AMP, i can tell you that it is without a doubt a hyped up peice of junk not worth the $2 it costs to make it,i own that amp & even with super efficient klipsch corner horns it was a useless amp that is incapable of meeting any kind of demand that is put on it,except maybe some frank sinatra or barbara striesand at low volume but anything else it will fall flat on its face,dont fall for all the hyped up reviews on this T AMP it is junk

If your mcintosh reciever is not working now but it was working properly when taken out of service then it will be something very simple & easy to correct,if your mcintosh reciever is either model # MAC 1500 or MAC 1700 then its a hybrid unit meaning that it uses a combonation of tubes & solid state,the MAC 1500 has a solid state preamp section with a tube amplifier & tube tuner section while the model MAC 1700 has solid state preamp & amplifier with a tube tuner section,all other mcintosh recievers were made strictly solid state,no tubes,tubes for these recievers can be bought for very little cash & installed in less than 10 minutes,please post the model number of your reciever as i may have a replacement stock mcintosh branded tube that will get you back up & running if you have a burnt tube.

I mean no offense but are you 100% sure that you had everything hooked up properly & had the correct source selected on the reciever,also some of the older model mcintosh recievers had switching on the front panel like tape monitor or tape to tape dubbing that if not in the proper positions will not allow you to hear any sound,some also have several different sets of speaker inputs that once again if not hooked up properly & have the right selection on the front panel will not produce sound,i'd be willing to bet that there is nothing wrong with the mac reciever & the problem lie's with either hook up,source selection or a combination of both because these units rarely(if ever) stop working.

Before going any further make a quick phone call to Mcintosh labs & talk to their tech rep,1-800-538-6576 & ask for Chuck Hinton,he will be able to walk you through set up & help you trouble shoot anything like a faulty tube or blown fuse.

You mentioned using an external amplifier with the preamp section within the reciever,think about this,if you go out & buy a $200 mass market amplifier the same day you buy it the amp will lose value & only continue to do so,these type's of amplifiers only lose value to the point if something goes wrong after the warrenty is gone it becomes too costly to repair & becomes throw away gear,on the other hand if you either take the time to assure proper set up or spend a few bucks on repairing the mac unit you will have a peice of gear that is & will continue to be worth something many years down the road & is allready a sought after collectors item that even in a state of disrepair is worth more than any of the amps or recievers mentioned in this thread.

Worst case scenario with your reciever is it will need a total retube but it will still cost less than a mass market external amp or reciever,less than $150 to retube the entire reciever.

 

[Seth=L]

Thank God, you have probably saved the day for this guy.

 

[jaxvon]

Hi,before you go any further understand this,the gear your father has was top of the line high end hifi gear in its day & is still worth several thousand dollars,you should also understand that all the gear your thinking about replacing the reciever with is worthless junk junk in comparison,kinda like replacing the engine in a porsche with a fiat engine

...snipped to save space

Worst case scenario with your reciever is it will need a total retube but it will still cost less than a mass market external amp or reciever,less than $150 to retube the entire reciever.

I'm gonna have to agree. The T-Amp is NOT hi-fi.

In regards to fixing the MC gear, it is worth it. McIntosh is one of the original hi-fi companies, and I mean high fidelity in its truest sense. They had amplifiers in the 40s that put to shame many of the tubed and "tube-ish" (T-Amp) available now. Their products are built to last, so I would highly recomend that you try to fix that receiver before giving up on it.

 

[project86]

Thanks for all the input.

Don't get me wrong guys: I definately plan on getting his amp fixed (a MAC 1700 by the way). This was just a temporary solution since he happened to be given the Magnavox unit by a neighbor (free), and I happened to be interested in building a T-amp kit to practice soldering (I'm getting rusty I'm sure).

I'm positive that the MAC is connected properly, it just won't work. I'm willing to bet it simply does need a new tube. I guess I will take it to the local repair shop that I trust, who does lots of vintage hifi stuff.

So you guys really don't like the T-amps huh? That is interesting... I think I may still make one (the entire kit plus extras will cost me less than $50 and I DO need the practice) Why do you think they have received so much hype?

 

[markw]

Thanks Why do you think they have received so much hype?

Because people believe what they want to believe, which is not always the truth. Everyone wants to believe in cheap giant killers that, in hte face of all logic, tromp much more expensive units*. They are far and few between.

That's why the "rocky" movies were big money makers. The little guy wins.

...and Santa Claus.

 

[highfihoney]

Why do you think they have received so much hype?

Hype is exactly what it sounds like which is BS no matter what peice of gear or the manufacturer,an amplifier out of any 19" tv set would easily keep up with the T AMP.

 

[Seth=L]

Hype is exactly what it sounds like which is BS no matter what peice of gear or the manufacturer,an amplifier out of any 19" tv set would easily keep up with the T AMP.

Or the amp out of my $25 2.1 Altelc Lansing speaker system. Which I did use as an amplifier.

 

[project86]

Wow, you guys really don't like the t amps! I certainly respect your opinions (espcially since I've never heard one myself).

The thing is, all the "audiophile" type of people I've ever dealt with tended to prefer larger prices and more obscure names. To think that they would admit that a cheap device outperformed their $500 or $1000 amp just seems silly, Yet that is the sort of claim being made.

Yes, I know there is a lot of quackery in the hifi world. So much so that it is hard to know what to believe. But the quackery seems to go in an "uphill" direction in regards to price... you think these $200 cables are good? Try these $500 cables. And if you think THOSE are good, try these $1000 cables. And if you think THOSE are good... etc etc.