Using a Receiver Without Preouts for Connection to an Amp?

[emrliquidlife]

Hope the origional poster doesn't mind the thread jack.

Anyone mind if I put up a pic of my HK AVR 146 internals for assitance on where my pre outs are? I'm game for adding Preouts to my AVR. Heck, I could rewire the SACD ins to be my outputs.

I would just want to make sure I was hitting the right area.

Ed

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Hope the origional poster doesn't mind the thread jack.

Anyone mind if I put up a pic of my HK AVR 146 internals for assitance on where my pre outs are? I'm game for adding Preouts to my AVR. Heck, I could rewire the SACD ins to be my outputs.

I would just want to make sure I was hitting the right area.

Ed

I don't mind at all.

 

[WmAx]

WmAx,

Hey, I am trying to figure out how I can make a separate amp work with my onk TX-8255. I have this rigged with 2 infinity speakers (soon to upgrade), for stereo speakers with my PC. I just added an Emotiva XPA-5 to my 806 and love it.

I know that it doesn't have pre-outs, but you had mentioned that a headphone outlet would work. Could you expand on that or have any other suggestions. I have not had this unit for long. Sorry, I couldn't post link to the 8255.

I do appreciated any help,

Thanks!
Rob

If you only want stereo output, the headphone out IS essentially a line out. Get an adapter to use the stereo phone plug output to split out to stereo RCA male connectors.

If you want all the pre-outs available, you would have to trace down the circuits in the reciever and wire/install RCA jacks on the back of the reciever.

I have performed a similar surgery on an older HK surround receiver(AVR55), and installed pre-ins to all of the amp modules in a surround channel amp, and provided RCA ins on the back and bypass switches. This was so I could still use the internal pre-amp and send out the lines to a DCX2496 for processing, then send the processed signal back in to the amp modules.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Hope the origional poster doesn't mind the thread jack.

Anyone mind if I put up a pic of my HK AVR 146 internals for assitance on where my pre outs are? I'm game for adding Preouts to my AVR. Heck, I could rewire the SACD ins to be my outputs.

I would just want to make sure I was hitting the right area.

Ed

Pic probably will not help much unless it's really hi-rez and of multiple angles/shots. Even then, it may be difficult to discern from a photograph. You really need to verify the circuits with test equipment to trace down the appropriate circuits , BUT there could be a very obvious circuit identifiable in a photograph - all I can say is put a hig rez set of photos and maybe someone here can I.D. the relevant circuits.

In some cases, you may need to get the service manual to do this properly.

-Chris

 

[emrliquidlife]

I gather. I do have a MM. Not much I know. I can solder, so I'd like to at least take a look. I'll put up some shots, then hopefully I can dial down to a macro view.

I'm on dad duty, so once the kid goes to bed, the Receiver gets opened.

One other thing I'm interested in....I recently went to an Adcom 700HD receiver. However, it had been damaged in shipping and I decided not to keep it. That Adcom played loud and clean, but no where near the imaging that the HK internal amp had. I'm wondering if I will find that to be true if I bypass and go to an external Adcom GFA 6000.

Ed

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Being that this thread was resurrected, does anyone have any more ideas for somehow making an AVR work without preouts for connection to an external amp?

 

[woodsart]

Preouts on Onkyo

Thanks Chris, but I am not very sure of myself in the area of surgery on an amp, but I think the front stereo out Headset line will do just fine, since I only need 2 channels.

I do appreciate your input on this.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[Mika75]

BTW, I have been looking at that Emotiva three-channel amp because it's the front three channels that really need the most "boosting;" would you recommend going down this route, or getting an all-out five, six or seven-channel power amp?

What do u feel needs 'boosting'? ..are u currently crossing over ur fronts? u know it's quite possible that just by adding another sub would give u the boost u require

 

[PearlcorderS701]

What do u feel needs 'boosting'? ..are u currently crossing over ur fronts? u know it's quite possible that just by adding another sub would give u the boost u require

Yes, my fronts are being crossed over -- they're large floor standers from Polk, so I have 'em crossed over at 60Hz...

Yes, I could very well do with another sub -- but I'd like to replace the PSW350 I have now first because it's a real piece of ****, to be honest.

As far as "boosting" the front soundstage, it just seems like my Onkyo 605 isn't giving enough energy to the RTi12s to really make them sing -- these speakers can handle 500 watts each so it just seems like a power amp would be better for the main channels...

 

[tom67]

What you want is a pre-amp which was sold by most of the big names a generation ago...Yamaha may still sell one....but, since you aspire to quality improvement, I wouldnt screw around with odd ball crap available out there or butcher your present receiver.....if there is a multi channel pre-amp still sold, it will cost more thant the 605.....better to move your receiver to another area in home and buy a receiver with pre-outs......better yet, buy a good one so you wont need a separate amp...

 

[PearlcorderS701]

What you want is a pre-amp which was sold by most of the big names a generation ago...Yamaha may still sell one....but, since you aspire to quality improvement, I wouldnt screw around with odd ball crap available out there or butcher your present receiver.....if there is a multi channel pre-amp still sold, it will cost more thant the 605.....better to move your receiver to another area in home and buy a receiver with pre-outs......better yet, buy a good one so you wont need a separate amp...

Tom,

Thanks for the thoughts. Indeed, a few companies make a multi-channel preamp processor, including Onkyo and its upscale Integra; I was just hoping to hold on to my 605 as long as possible to utilize at least its processing section -- but on deeper thought, the processor inside this unit isn't that powerful really, not even allowing Audyssey EQ application when bitstreaming TrueHD and Master Audio signals from a BD player (there apparently isn't enough processing power in this chip; not something Onkyo divulges, nor do everyday consumers know when buying this AVR), so I may just scrap the whole idea altogether. You're right.

The idea of getting a really good receiver with enough juice to drive my mains is intriguing before even jumping to an amp -- is there a model in Onkyo's current lineup that you would recommend in terms of raw output muscle?

 

[Mika75]

Yes, my fronts are being crossed over -- they're large floor standers from Polk, so I have 'em crossed over at 60Hz...

Yes, I could very well do with another sub -- but I'd like to replace the PSW350 I have now first because it's a real piece of ****, to be honest.

As far as "boosting" the front soundstage, it just seems like my Onkyo 605 isn't giving enough energy to the RTi12s to really make them sing -- these speakers can handle 500 watts each so it just seems like a power amp would be better for the main channels...

Does the system play loud enough? ..from what u say the current sub isn't doing ur system justice, ur missing out on bass punch/authority so I believe it's upgrade time

 

[anamorphic96]

If you want to do this receiver upgrade without any regret. Get the Onkyo TX-NR1007 or above. They all offer the stout amp sections your RT-12's want. They offer the upgraded Audyssey EQ sections, pre-amp outputs, good video processing if needed, and probably a ton of the other things you won't ever use. If you need more info on all the feature differences do a model comparison at the Onkyo website.

As of now the 1007 can be had between 950-1100 from multiple authorized online dealers. Just do a google search. Prices will probably drop lower as the newer models come out.

Since you are only considering Onkyo. This is my only suggestion. The 1007 will do more than you will probably ever need and its cheap as of now, and will only go lower.

 

[tom67]

Just a thought...I reviewed your original post and your main concern is "raw power"---There are two ways to get there, maybe 3 for you.
1. Bigger amp-but remember that almost doubling the watts/channel will only give you about a 10% increase in perceived power...unless you are clipping, which I doubt, this may not do it for you
2. More effiecient speakers-94db rated speakers vs your 90db would give you a lot more sound than increasing amp power 50%.

3 But you have formidable 90 lb fronts and an amp perfectly capable of driving them. I cant help but notice your center is a 17 lb unit with 5.5" drivers which is small relative to the mains. If you are weighted to HT vs 2 channel music like I am, remember that more than half of the sound in your system is coming out of the center on a dolby digital movie which is the weakest link. I had the same problem with my Klipsch setup until I added a 26 inch 32lb center. I was satisfied with music but had to really crank the volume on movies. If you are happy on stereo only with the mains, you might be equally happy with a better center on 5.1. I would suggest you borrow a friends larger center or get one to try locally (one that is returnable)...if it works, you could look to get the larger CSI 40 on ebay or the newer A6, assuming it is compatible with your series...New Egg has some deals. looks like $300 for the A6 if you can use coupon for something else.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2100310494 1299919919&name=Center Channel Speaker?cm_sp=homeaudiospeakersubcat494-_-flashstorefront-_-centerchannelspeakers

 

[anamorphic96]

Mike has been down this road before but feels his current center channel is good enough. While his current center will work ok. It is still not a proper timbre match and much to small for his RT12's.

Tom67 makes very valid points about the center channel. Which I also made in some of my previous posts in other threads of yours. Your center and sub are the weakest links.

The matching center for your towers is still available from several authorized dealers for dirt cheap. This would make the biggest improvement in your system right now. The next would be the sub.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Polk+Audio+CSi5&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=16947587795370097853&ei=KfAwTI3bGtO1nAfiy_WLBA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDMQ8wIwAg#

Now if your curious as to why I'm now suggesting the center. It's because its the truth. It is your weakest link. Along with your sub. I suggested a receiver because it's what you asked and seem dead set on.

Your 605 is more than adequate with the 60 and 80hz crossovers your using. This makes the amp much more efficient.

If you want a night and day difference. Get the center and sub. Then get the Onkyo 1007 and be done with it.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Thank you all for the suggestions -- I'll be re-reading all of them and getting back to you just as I have some free time from work this upcoming week; I have yet another business trip on the 7th that I'm leaving for, so I will respond at some point before that...

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Does the system play loud enough? ..from what u say the current sub isn't doing ur system justice, ur missing out on bass punch/authority so I believe it's upgrade time

Well, Mika, yes, the system actually does play loud "enough," and we never get it near capacity output -- I just feel like some dynamics are missing...something beyond just replacing the sub.

Would you recommend running the Audyssey self setup and EQ system?

 

[PearlcorderS701]

If you want to do this receiver upgrade without any regret. Get the Onkyo TX-NR1007 or above. They all offer the stout amp sections your RT-12's want. They offer the upgraded Audyssey EQ sections, pre-amp outputs, good video processing if needed, and probably a ton of the other things you won't ever use. If you need more info on all the feature differences do a model comparison at the Onkyo website.

I've done this already -- that is, comparing all the models on their site and trying to figure out what the right "Onkyo upgrade path" would be, based on their current lineup. But your suggestion of which specific model could be benefitial to my RTi12s is interested and appreciated, as that is the kind of guidance I was initially looking for.

Do you really think the NR1007 will be a decent sonic match with my RTi12s? This is one of their networking receivers, but I don't need any networking features -- just looking for clean, honest high power and lossless decoding, to be honest. The preamps are a plus too. What other AVR would you recommend to mate with the RTi12 towers outside of Onkyo?

As of now the 1007 can be had between 950-1100 from multiple authorized online dealers. Just do a google search. Prices will probably drop lower as the newer models come out.

That's about my price range.

Since you are only considering Onkyo. This is my only suggestion. The 1007 will do more than you will probably ever need and its cheap as of now, and will only go lower.

That's why I asked above what other brands you would recommend.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Just a thought...I reviewed your original post and your main concern is "raw power"---There are two ways to get there, maybe 3 for you.
1. Bigger amp-but remember that almost doubling the watts/channel will only give you about a 10% increase in perceived power...unless you are clipping, which I doubt, this may not do it for you
2. More effiecient speakers-94db rated speakers vs your 90db would give you a lot more sound than increasing amp power 50%.

Thanks again, Tom; I recently purchased these RTi12 Polks, so I am not going to re-purchase another set after dropping neigh-$1000 on these. So #2 isn't an option right now...

3 But you have formidable 90 lb fronts and an amp perfectly capable of driving them.

How do I have an "amp perfectly capable of driving them"? My current AVR puts out 90 watts per channel with two channels driven, and the speakers handle 500 watts a piece...

I cant help but notice your center is a 17 lb unit with 5.5" drivers which is small relative to the mains. If you are weighted to HT vs 2 channel music like I am, remember that more than half of the sound in your system is coming out of the center on a dolby digital movie which is the weakest link.

Indeed, I realize that most of the audio is coming from the center channel on multichannel film soundtracks, and in this room and system we're talking about, it is indeed slanted for HT, not two channel (I have a separate room for serious 2-channel listening). But I didn't realize my center was an issue...

I had the same problem with my Klipsch setup until I added a 26 inch 32lb center. I was satisfied with music but had to really crank the volume on movies. If you are happy on stereo only with the mains, you might be equally happy with a better center on 5.1. I would suggest you borrow a friends larger center or get one to try locally (one that is returnable)...if it works, you could look to get the larger CSI 40 on ebay or the newer A6, assuming it is compatible with your series...New Egg has some deals. looks like $300 for the A6 if you can use coupon for something else.

Thanks for all this info on the CSi centers -- I didn't really think I was having an "issue" with my center though; that's not really where I feel the problem lies. I think the entire front stage needs more power behind it, so that's why I initially wanted to add a power amp to this 605 AVR, but it has no preouts, hence the start of this thread.

Do you really think a larger center would be influential? The one I'm running now (CSi30) is not an exact timbre match for the RTi12 mains, but Polk assured me it was a close enough approximation.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Mike has been down this road before but feels his current center channel is good enough. While his current center will work ok. It is still not a proper timbre match and much to small for his RT12's.

Now you say it's "too small" for my RTi12s? In either case, is this really the problem as we see it? The center channel? I was under the assumption that the mains were the channels that really needed amping because of their power hunger tendencies...

Tom67 makes very valid points about the center channel. Which I also made in some of my previous posts in other threads of yours. Your center and sub are the weakest links.

I know the sub is a problem. As you stated, we've been down this road before. I realize the sub is a terrible weak link. But I didn't think, once again, that the center was an issue, quite honestly; I realize this is where most of a 5.1 soundtrack originates from, but I didn't think the CSi30 was so "poor" that it would contribute to the "dynamic loss" experience that's plaguing the HT now...

The matching center for your towers is still available from several authorized dealers for dirt cheap. This would make the biggest improvement in your system right now. The next would be the sub.

You honestly think the center would make the biggest improvement -- not the AVR?

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Polk+Audio+CSi5&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=16947587795370097853&ei=KfAwTI3bGtO1nAfiy_WLBA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDMQ8wIwAg#

Now if your curious as to why I'm now suggesting the center. It's because its the truth. It is your weakest link. Along with your sub. I suggested a receiver because it's what you asked and seem dead set on.

Right -- I understand why you're suggesting the receiver, and I understand that it's the truth regarding my sub; I have no arguments there. But I'm still surprised that you'd suggest a center before upgrading the power, which brings me to this:

Your 605 is more than adequate with the 60 and 80hz crossovers your using. This makes the amp much more efficient.

So, you're saying using a 60Hz crossover for the RTi12s, the 605 is capable of running these towers without a sweat? You yourself went on the Polk Forums and took note of all the members who bought these speakers and complained about their receiver driving them, and how everyone who responded to these statements recommended driving these RTi12s with nothing less than a huge power amp -- you do not concur?

Further, do you recommend a 60Hz crossover for these towers? How about something lower than that?

If you want a night and day difference. Get the center and sub. Then get the Onkyo 1007 and be done with it.

A night and day difference would be achieved through changing out my center channel? Honest? I understand the sub, but...

Okay, so you recommend the 1007 -- any other models or models from another manufacturer that would be a good match for the RTi12s?