Urge to upgrade again - For the LAST TIME :)

[Cos]

Don't know if you're close enough to the seller to listen to these..

T+A Elektroakustik Criterion TCD110S Floor... For Sale | Audiogon

T+A Elektroakustik Criterion TCD110S Full-Range for sale. Selling my pair of T+A Criterion TCD 110S floor standing speakers and matching 510C cente...

www.audiogon.com

He even has the matching center. (I'm also jealous of that walnut finish since mine are matte black). I have to shamelessly plug these since I own a pair. It cured my upgradeitis because I probably won't ever be able to afford anything better!

The bass on these things has be heard to be believed... but it's the midrange that always takes my breath away. To me the highs were a bit hot (and I put a resistor inline per recommendations from T&A tech support), but I haven't had a very large room. House 2.0 will provide me with a 16x14 office space so I can finally sit back a little bit more. If I could change anything it would be to add a tweeter adjustment knob like a lot of speakers have.

Interesting, will check it out

 

[Cos]

Agreed and if ceiling issues come into play there are plenty of acoustic treatment options out there.

IMO your width (18') is great, requiring less worry about first point of reflection issues as well.

As a very satisfied Revel owner (Studio2's), for what they can be had on the used market you should take a listen if available.

It's going to a home theater with 9 foot ceilings, I paid extra for them to dig deeper in my basement when I had my house built.

- It's funny, I have started to look at audiogon at the Revel Salons

 

[Mikado463]

- It's funny, I have started to look at audiogon at the Revel Salons

great speaker but don't forget they are 'power hungry' !

 

[Cos]

No used Revel Salon2, B&W 802D2, KEF Reference 207/2 towers near you?

Any local Legacy dealers near you?

Ever since @Gmoney talked about owning his "dream" Legacy towers a couple of years ago and Audioholics/Gene talked and interviewed Legacy Audio, I've been thinking on/off about the Legacy Focus SE towers (1" + 4" Tweeter, dual 7" Midrange, dual 12" Woofers). I wish it had dual 8" Midrange, though.

Only things I have against Legacy in general:

1. @Irvrobinson used to own Legacy Focus a long time ago, and he preferred the Salon2. But he did say this was a long time ago, and Legacy has made changes since then.

2. Legacy speakers' RF is mostly +/-3dB to 4dB like B&W, GoldenEar, DefTech, not +/-2dB to +/3dB like RBH, KEF, Revel, and Focal.

3. I think the Legacy Focus looks great from the FRONT view (like in that picture I posted), but it's still mainly a little bit boxy, not curvy like Salon2, B&W 802Ds, RBH SVT, older KEF Reference like the KEF 207/2 tower, and Focal, etc.

BTW, Gmoney also started a thread on 10K-20K systems:

What gear would you choose to put together with 10k or upt to 20k?

ADTG and I where having a Discussion on putting together a setup of a in home audio and video setup. That Discussion between the two of us went on for days closer to a week with cellphone texting back and foruth. He and I came up with a Foundation of a really good setup for around 10k. Even...

forums.audioholics.com

I have listened to Legacy Speakers at AXPONA two years ago, I thought they sounded excellent, even if the setup was less than ideal. The look nice, but I felt I heard better at the show.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It's going to a home theater with 9 foot ceilings, I paid extra for them to dig deeper in my basement when I had my house built.

- It's funny, I have started to look at audiogon at the Revel Salons

I bought my Salon2 new at $14K. Sold them about a year later for around $10-11K.

So you can definitely get Salon2 in this price range. Irv uses ATI 3002 amp for his Salon2. I’ve used AT2005 and AT3002 when I had Salon2. I think 200WPC is plenty. So I am sure your Parasound Halo amp is just fine.

 

[ryanosaur]

I have listened to Legacy Speakers at AXPONA two years ago, I thought they sounded excellent, even if the setup was less than ideal. The look nice, but I felt I heard better at the show.

I've been lurking on this one... but seriously... what are your goals? And why not consider Salk? At the CSA last year, I honestly thought the SS 9.5 to be the winner at the show. Some played louder, others were flashier, but Dollar for Dollar, I didn't hear anything else play as realistic as those!

Just my 2¢.

 

[Cos]

I've been lurking on this one... but seriously... what are your goals? And why not consider Salk? At the CSA last year, I honestly thought the SS 9.5 to be the winner at the show. Some played louder, others were flashier, but Dollar for Dollar, I didn't hear anything else play as realistic as those!

Just my 2¢.

I respect everyone's opinion. I remember the Salk's being truly impressive at one of the AXPONA Shows, I was at. (Exotica 3?) They are nice looking speakers, but I am trying to stay away from Internet Brands. I am old school and I like having a relationship with my audio dealer. My current dealer has been great in supporting me when I have had issues and I like to deal with people in person. In case I do have issues, I am trying to stay with a larger brand in case I need service or parts etc.

 

[Cos]

I bought my Salon2 new at $14K. Sold them about a year later for around $10-11K.

So you can definitely get Salon2 in this price range. Irv uses ATI 3002 amp for his Salon2. I’ve used AT2005 and AT3002 when I had Salon2. I think 200WPC is plenty. So I am sure your Parasound Halo amp is just fine.

I have A21 and A51 Halo Amps rated 300WPC I should be ok.

 

[Pogre]

You ever "actively" or "partial-actively" bi-amp the woofers of a tower?

It turns the woofers into active subwoofers so you can control the bass level without using tone controls.

For example, let the mid/tweeter get the usual AVR/amp, but then send the LFE to a subwoofer amp then connect to the woofers.

Or send a 2nd L/R outputs (or Splitter) to a sub amp to power the woofers.

The RBH SX-8300 and SV-6500 (per Shane Rich) and NHT Classic Four (per NHT & S&V Magazine) have been bi-amped this way.

So If I had towers with dual 10" or 12" woofers that can be bi-amped, I would partial-active bi-amp.

This is exactly what I was considering doing with my Ultras. They're only dual 8" woofers tho.

 

[Pogre]

While you can do that, and there are advantages to that approach, there are also hazards. I would only do that if I felt sure the woofers could handle it. Given the excursion demands of deep bass, for most speakers deep bass is best left to dedicated subs.

Aaaannd this is why I haven't attempted it yet, tho it's still a tempting idea...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is exactly what I was considering doing with my Ultras. They're only dual 8" woofers tho.

Yeah, you just gotta be careful and not use too much power (200W and under probably good) and turn the sub amp volume down low first, then gradually increase.

Best thing about actively bi-amping the woofers is that you have much more control of the bass. If the bass is too much on some materials or too much bass for the smaller room, you can simply lower the sub amp volume.

I’ve been wanting to try this on non-modular towers. That’s one reason I thought about the Legacy Focus SE. But RBH is also coming out with a full-range non-modular, so I thought about waiting to see how that pans out. Of course, @KEW said I was crazy just having all RBH.

Anyway, one of these days I hope to actively bi-amp a non-modular tower and tell the story.

 

[Mikado463]

I have A21 and A51 Halo Amps rated 300WPC I should be ok.

i tend to agree with regard to the Revel's, if you're able to pick up a pair of 'minty' used Salon2's for less than 10k I can't see how you could go wrong.

 

[Cos]

i tend to agree with regard to the Revel's, if you're able to pick up a pair of 'minty' used Salon2's for less than 10k I can't see how you could go wrong.

I can go to several places to demo those by me, so I am going to give those a try. They always seem to come up for sale on Audiogon, so I will keep an eye out.

 

[Mikado463]

I can go to several places to demo those by me, so I am going to give those a try. They always seem to come up for sale on Audiogon, so I will keep an eye out.

'several' Revel dealers near by, wow, nice ! Keep in mind to the best of my knowledge the speakers is no longer in production so dbl check with your dealers if they still have any. My listening room while being of the same depth as yours is only 14'6" wide and I'm more than happy with their smaller siblings (Studio2's)

 

[Cos]

'several' Revel dealers near by, wow, nice ! Keep in mind to the best of my knowledge the speakers is no longer in production so dbl check with your dealers if they still have any. My listening room while being of the same depth as yours is only 14'6" wide and I'm more than happy with their smaller siblings (Studio2's)

Interesting, I see they were still on my website, I was planning on calling some dealers to see if they had on display.---- I called a have a dealer 15 minutes from where I live who has them on display.

 

[mtrot]

Didn't take long for the urge to come back, but since Sandy is leaving GE, it gave me a very poor reason to upgrade, but I guess that's all I needed.

I am going to break open my piggy ban, well actually vaporize it lol.
While I do watch a lot of movies, I am staring to listen to music more and more. After doing some initial research, these are a few I have decided to audition

• Paradigm Persona 5F
• Focal Katana 3
• Kef Reference 3

I have auditioned the Persona 5F and remember being blown away. The whole persona line seems to be solid w/exception of their bookshelf speakers which sounded terrible IMO
I have read a lot of positive reviews on the Focal and Kefs, so I have thrown those into the mix. I can get a good deal on the Paradigm as well, which is why its on my list. Would like to have my fronts and center fall under 20k. Though changing from my GE T1s I will probably need to invest in another good sub.

Famous last words "These will be the last speakers I will every own" and at this price point I mean it!

• I would prefer not to go with an online brand, not that they are not as good or better, but I like dealing with a local dealer.
• If you have alternate suggestions I would be open to consider.
• I don't think I need to change my Parasound amps, I would hope that they are up to the task
• These speakers will sit in my Home Theater Room which is 18W x 24L

Interesting, as those are the same speakers I've been looking at, among others. Great list.

As to the Persona 5F, I don't know if I would rule them out just yet. I heard, if I remember correctly, the 7F at RMAF 2019, and they just sounded fantastic, along with their subs. This was one of the best subwoofer integrations that I've heard. The only thing is that they will tell you all about an overly bright recording. This demo was driven by Anthem STR separates. You wrote that these will be in your home theater. For home theater, dialog intelligibility is of paramount importance, and is something at which the Persona excel.
DSC_0087 by MDTshots, on Flickr

As to Focal Kanta 3, the specs are virtually the same as Sopra 3, but they use different woofer and mid range cone materials. They are excellent speakers, but can also sound bright to some listeners.

As to KEF, I recently heard KEF R7 and was able to compare them head to head with B&W and other speakers. My concern with using KEF in a home theater setting is that they are just rather soft sounding, with noticeably less clarity than the other speakers there. I suppose the sound could be enhanced with room correction technology.

If after more auditioning of speakers, you still find Persona/Focal/Revel to be too bright for you, one other option I might add would be Dynaudio Contour 60. I heard them also at an audio show and they sounded excellent, and they do not have a metal dome tweeter, but, rather, their Esotar2 tweeter. They are $10k list price, but are now becoming available at ~$6k.

 

[Cos]

Interesting, as those are the same speakers I've been looking at, among others. Great list.

As to the Persona 5F, I don't know if I would rule them out just yet. I heard, if I remember correctly, the 7F at RMAF 2019, and they just sounded fantastic, along with their subs. This was one of the best subwoofer integrations that I've heard. The only thing is that they will tell you all about an overly bright recording. This demo was driven by Anthem STR separates. You wrote that these will be in your home theater. For home theater, dialog intelligibility is of paramount importance, and is something at which the Persona excel.
DSC_0087 by MDTshots, on Flickr

As to Focal Kanta 3, the specs are virtually the same as Sopra 3, but they use different woofer and mid range cone materials. They are excellent speakers, but can also sound bright to some listeners.

As to KEF, I recently heard KEF R7 and was able to compare them head to head with B&W and other speakers. My concern with using KEF in a home theater setting is that they are just rather soft sounding, with noticeably less clarity than the other speakers there. I suppose the sound could be enhanced with room correction technology.

If after more auditioning of speakers, you still find Persona/Focal/Revel to be too bright for you, one other option I might add would be Dynaudio Contour 60. I heard them also at an audio show and they sounded excellent, and they do not have a metal dome tweeter, but, rather, their Esotar2 tweeter. They are $10k list price, but are now becoming available at ~$6k.

If I were to buy speakers purely on looks I would get the Sopra's or Paradigms. My concern with the Revel speakers is that the center channel is so damn expensive (10k list) While it's fairly common to find the mains on the resale market, the center is much more difficult.

Helps to check audiogon often, There is a person selling Salon 2s in Chicago for about 10k and another who just got a pair of Sopra 2s for 8k. I might be able to demo both now and decide which way to go.

 

[mtrot]

If I were to buy speakers purely on looks I would get the Sopra's or Paradigms. My concern with the Revel speakers is that the center channel is so damn expensive (10k list) While it's fairly common to find the mains on the resale market, the center is much more difficult.

Helps to check audiogon often, There is a person selling Salon 2s in Chicago for about 10k and another who just got a pair of Sopra 2s for 8k. I might be able to demo both now and decide which way to go.

True. One thought I had in case I picked up Salon 2 or Studio 2 was that I might just pick up a Revel C208 for center channel(I'm not in the camp that it has to be an exact match). This is a pretty competent center speaker, and has recently been going for ~$1,200 on the used market.

 

[Cos]

Was able to Demo the Sopra 2 and was very impressed. The midrange was crystal clear, detailed and was able to capture my demo tracks extremely well. I am still not 100% convinced that I like the beryllium tweeters as much as the folded Ribbon. I have heard it from both the Paradigm 5F and the FOCAL and the focal seems to perform better. Bass was tight, no sense of "boomyness," but it was lacking the low end punch of my Tritons (not a fair comparison).

It comes down to if these a significant upgrade to my T1s and the answer is a mild yes. I will point out that these speakers are DAMN SEXY lol, the finish on these is impeccable. It's my understanding they use the same process as painting a car, and it shows.

Just like my T1s, these speakers are very sensitive to positioning. They played almost everything I threw at it, but will definitely need a solid Sub or 2 to truly get the most out of the setup.

They sold the Salon2s I was hoping to demo, but that is next. I have a backup place to audition those on Monday.

 

[Mikado463]

Don't know if you have listened to Martin Logan but there is a great sale going on right now on their Masterpiece Series.

Premium HiFi Speakers for Home Theater & Stereo

Manufacturer of electrostatic and hybrid speakers for audiophiles and home theater enthusiasts.

martinlogan.com

As much as I love my Revel Studio2's if I were to replace them tomorrow I would go back to Martin Logan and the 13a's.