Upgrading to a more powerful Integrated Amp: Am I getting good advice?

[lreinstein]

Hi,

I am a music and audio enthusiast. I listen mainly to Classical, Jazz, and Blues but also Classic Rock and other genres. My source is typically Lossless files through a Squeezebox 3 and I intend to purchase a good DAC soon.

But now to my question.

My HIFI system is in a very large room with cathedral ceilings I own a Marantz Integrated amplifier (PM7001, 70 wpc) and the floor standing KEF XQ40 speakers.

Anyway the sound is fantastic for most music. I have a sweet spot where i sit about 10 feet away. But this is a very bright room. (When I clap my hands once I can hear the ping or ringing in the corners of the ceilings.) The music at moderate volume levels sound really sweet.

My problem is when I try to play the music LOUD. When I pump it up to hear a Mahler or Beethoven Symphony as if I were in the concert hall orchestra section ... it very quickly sounds very very "muddy". Is that the right word -- I am not an audiophile? Do you know what i mean?

I asked my local HiFi store expert if it is it a problem with my integrated amp?

He said I probably would benefit from a more powerful Amp. He suggested adding a Marantz MM7025 which would be driven by my PM7001 and up the power to 140wpc.

Questions:

1. Is he correct and am I underpowered and would more power help me at large volumes?

2. Would a powered subwoofer be a good alternative?

I am limited in shelf space (my wife is fussy) and also budget. I could spend up to approximately $1300

3. Would I be better off replacing the PM7001 with a more powerful Integrated Amp?

4. Would the NAD 385BEE be a better choice? It would also give me the 150wpc and take up less space. Also I could sell my PM7001. Is NAD a good brand?

5. Are there better choices for comparable $$

Thank you very much for taking the time to help me out.

Larry

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

WAF problems will be hard to deal with - I think I'd concentrate you with getting best out of your speaker.
With larger room, speakers and desire for louder volumes I think that bigger amp should help quite considerably. But there is another issue here:
You said the sound is "muddy" - which could be issue with bass.
I'd strongly recommend vs spending any money for external dac - you'd be much better off getting processor or use a good receiver as a processor

My suggestion is :
Get this Receiver - Marantz Sr6001 for $280 + S/H : http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR6001/Marantz-Sr6001-Receiver-100w-X-7ch-Hdmi-Home-Theater-Surround/1.html#!specifications
You'd connect you SB straight to receiver with digital spdif cable


This amplifier: http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm

Digital amplifier is what you after (slim boxes)are not cheap and I don't see how you could fit one in your humble budget, sorry budget power does require bigger boxes, but luckily you don't have to keep them next to speaker - they could be placed as far as 50ft or even farther, given your speaker cable is at-least gauge 12.

This option will allow to use PM7001 in smaller room or sell it.

As far as sub goes - unfortunately you don't the budget for it as a minimum I'd recommend for you is Epic Empire
but 6001 has MultEQ Auto Calibration which could help you partially cure your room issues


p.s: if you need cables or interconnects just get them from monoprice or if you like fancy - bjc

 

[its phillip]

If you are unhappy with the sound of your speakers, you should try changing those first. I would strongly suggest adding a sub as well.

 

[Hocky]

If you have serious slap echo issues, the problem could be completely unrelated to your equipment and you're losing focus from heavy reflections in the room. You could put a million dollar stereo in a closet and it is going to sound terrible. You might need to address the room first.

 

[markw]

More power alone won't solve your problem.

Although doubling your power sounds like a massive increase, when it comes down to what you actually hear, it only boils down to about 3 decibels increase, which is barely audible.

Check out this site for more details on that.

Please note in above article how much power is actually needed for a significant change in sound. Cliff notes version: For an apparent doubling of sound pressure you need ten times the power. Double it again and you're up to one hundred times the power.

Now, as for trying to recreate the sound levels of an orchestra; let's Lock at what your speakers are actually capable of putting out.

From the KEF web site: Sensitivity is 90 db for one watt of power.

That's pretty good, but keep in mind that this is three feet from the speaker. Sound decreases by about 6 decibels for ash doubling of the distance so, at six feet, that number is down to 84 decibels, at twelve feet it's 78 decibels, and so on.

Also from the KEF web site: Maximum speaker level is 112 decibles.

Keep in mind the above paragraph and your listening position when thinking about this.

Now, as for how loud a symphony orchestra really is, spend some time reading this link. Please note in particular the number they suggest for the symphonic orchestra peak.

Personally, for what you want, I think you need more power and much more efficient speakers , but I could always be wrong.

 

[GranteedEV]

Anyway the sound is fantastic for most music. I have a sweet spot where i sit about 10 feet away. But this is a very bright room. (When I clap my hands once I can hear the ping or ringing in the corners of the ceilings.) The music at moderate volume levels sound really sweet.

This is a big red flag. You don't need a dead room, but what you describe is slap echo and it's pretty detrimental to sound quality and pretty proportional to SPL.

My problem is when I try to play the music LOUD. When I pump it up to hear a Mahler or Beethoven Symphony as if I were in the concert hall orchestra section ... it very quickly sounds very very "muddy". Is that the right word -- I am not an audiophile? Do you know what i mean?

Well to me mud doesn't have much of a sound

So I officially have no idea if you know what muddy means, and thus I have no idea what you're hearing is. But I would attribute it to a some possible things

1) Room reflections. Plain and simple, you need to tame your room. No, it might not mean you need to tame your speakers, but you want a consistent, quick decay rather than "overhang". It may also be a bass issue in which case you want to reduce the energy causing standing waves inside the room. Even something like adding a rug to a room with hard floors can possibly help. Your best bet IMO is to add some diffusion panels and bass traps... look into some of the attractive offerings from GIK Acoustics and get in touch with them to figure out what will most help you out:

http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_q7d.html

2) Your speakers. Most speakers are just not made for high SPLs and begin to distort; in fact most of the time feeding your speakers with bigger badder amps. I've also not heard the best things about the KEF XQ speakers, so it's possible that a lack of balance could be revealed more revealed at higher SPLs is kind of pointless because your speakers are introducing a lot more distortion into the mix plain and simple. The thing to note is that these are a coaxial speaker, and that means that as the midrange cone moves in and out more and more, the treble will start to be modulated by its movement. Adding a 80hz or 100hz crossover to a subwoofer or two or three might solve your problem, as it will take away much of the cone motion, in effect reducing the cone's modulation of the tweeter.

3) Your amp. Yes it's possible that your speakers are causing your amp to strain. The PM7001 is listed at 100w into 4 ohms, and the XQ40s do dip to 3.2 ohms. Still, you're probably getting output to around 95db or more at your seat. No doubt upgrading your amp would at the very least remove doubt that it's the amp, although the Marantz amp you are looking may not be a big step up. I recommend this amplifier:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XLS1500/

Not only is it a powerful amp that will sound excellent, if you were to get two instead of one, you could add passive subwoofers (which might save you some money?) and use its built in bi-amping crossover. This is really the kind of power you need to be looking at if you want to know for sure that you've made an upgrade, and being a class D design this amp has very small physical dimensions which should work well for your sitaution.

1. Is he correct and am I underpowered and would more power help me at large volumes?

It wouldn't be the first thing I would look to address, as you can see above.

The first thing I would do might be to try the speakers at a high SPL outdoors just as a test. That'll address the problem of whether it's the room and if so I would tame the room. Second I would test high SPLs on music that has no bass content below 100hz. That would address the issue of whether a sub can help take the stress away from the coaxial. Only then would I add an amp, and I would make sure it's a huge upgrade, not a moderate one.

2. Would a powered subwoofer be a good alternative?

I am limited in shelf space (my wife is fussy) and also budget. I could spend up to approximately $1300

How does one of these look?

http://funkywaves.net/catalog/inventory/fw12x_large.png

3. Would I be better off replacing the PM7001 with a more powerful Integrated Amp?

As a final resort, not an initial reaction.

4. Would the NAD 385BEE be a better choice? It would also give me the 150wpc and take up less space. Also I could sell my PM7001. Is NAD a good brand?

NAD is a good brand, but I don't really see it as a better choice, moreso an equivalent one. The number one feature I would look for in an integrated amp would be bass management to allow yourself to implement a subwoofer should more power not cut the mustard. I recommend this outlaw:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

Or if you want to use an outbound amp, this emotiva:
http://www.emotiva.com/usp1.shtm
will serve as a preamp to pair with a high power amp like the crown i named above.

5. Are there better choices for comparable $$

For electronics, I named two. For subs, I recommend "two" instead of one, as the sound quality will be more impressive. A pair of these:

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV12.html

Should do the trick. If you liked my idea of a pair of passive subwoofers off the crown amps, consider getting one custom built by Funkywaves or Salk Sound

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Digital amplifier is what you after (slim boxes)are not cheap and I don't see how you could fit one in your humble budget,

I take it back. Crown amp linked above seem to fit the bill as far as spec and size goes, but typically Pro amps have loud fans. Placed in home environment (temp controlled) you might need to replace the fan for quieter one

btw: +1 to the rest of GranteedEV's post

 

[GranteedEV]

Placed in home environment (temp controlled) you might need to replace the fan for quieter one

TYPICALLY ;P

That even includes the crown XLS 402/602/802

But not the new Drivecore amps (XLS1000/1500 etc)

With the drivecore amps the temp-controlled fan won't turn on unless you're punishing the 300W class D amp, at which point SPL will be so loud that hearing a cooling fan is unlikely.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

TYPICALLY ;P

That even includes the crown XLS 402/602/802

But not the new Drivecore amps (XLS1000/1500 etc)

With the drivecore amps the temp-controlled fan won't turn on unless you're punishing the 300W class D amp, at which point SPL will be so loud that hearing a cooling fan is unlikely.

a) good to know ! Then I just might be a budget alternative for xpa-2
b) pushing it at 300w - 1) I doubt than anyone would notice the noise fan 2) you wouldn't hear it since you just lost your hearing

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi,

I am a music and audio enthusiast. I listen mainly to Classical, Jazz, and Blues but also Classic Rock and other genres. My source is typically Lossless files through a Squeezebox 3 and I intend to purchase a good DAC soon.

But now to my question.

My HIFI system is in a very large room with cathedral ceilings I own a Marantz Integrated amplifier (PM7001, 70 wpc) and the floor standing KEF XQ40 speakers.

Anyway the sound is fantastic for most music. I have a sweet spot where i sit about 10 feet away. But this is a very bright room. (When I clap my hands once I can hear the ping or ringing in the corners of the ceilings.) The music at moderate volume levels sound really sweet.

My problem is when I try to play the music LOUD. When I pump it up to hear a Mahler or Beethoven Symphony as if I were in the concert hall orchestra section ... it very quickly sounds very very "muddy". Is that the right word -- I am not an audiophile? Do you know what i mean?

I asked my local HiFi store expert if it is it a problem with my integrated amp?

He said I probably would benefit from a more powerful Amp. He suggested adding a Marantz MM7025 which would be driven by my PM7001 and up the power to 140wpc.

Questions:

1. Is he correct and am I underpowered and would more power help me at large volumes?

2. Would a powered subwoofer be a good alternative?

I am limited in shelf space (my wife is fussy) and also budget. I could spend up to approximately $1300

3. Would I be better off replacing the PM7001 with a more powerful Integrated Amp?

4. Would the NAD 385BEE be a better choice? It would also give me the 150wpc and take up less space. Also I could sell my PM7001. Is NAD a good brand?

5. Are there better choices for comparable $$

Thank you very much for taking the time to help me out.

Larry

Having a system that will play solo instruments, chamber music, the huge block buster symphonic and choral works as well as Grand Opera at full concert dynamic range and levels has been a pursuit of a lifetime for me.

I have to get you to reality, it is not going to happen on your budget.

What you are trying to do requires far more amp power, and larger speakers than rock music or movies by far.

The dynamic range and very high clean spl levels required at times are enormous relatively speaking.

So you will have to be content to be far shy of concert hall levels unless you are prepared to spend enormous amounts of money.

As others have eluded to you are up against the db logarithmic power demands which requires doubling the amp power for every 3db increase in level. To make a system twice as loud requires an increase in amp power of 10 fold. That would put you in the 700 watt per channel class right now and what is actually required for the big block busters is in the 2.5 to 5 KW power range. Your speakers will just not handle that sort of power. There will be severe thermal compression due to voice coil heating and then burn out.

Now you have another problem, your speakers are a known hard drive. Their minimum impedance is 3.2 ohms, which makes their actual impedance around 3.5 ohms and certainly below four ohms.

So you will need a very robust amp indeed, with high current capability to get the best from those speakers, which means separate pre and power amps.

Your next issue is your ambient room. Now you can get very good reproduction in an ambient space especially for classical music. The ambiance actually helps lower power requirements. Speakers with an excellent off axis response that closely mirrors the on axis response is essential under such circumstances.

However you can't get away from the fact that the ambiance and echoes from the recording venue are added to your room ambiance and echoes.

This tends to confuse the aural perception as spl levels are increased in my experience.

You might want to experiment judiciously with room treatments.

Now to the sub. Large spaces are often very prone to bass blooming. So if you add a sub, and you will need a powerful one with low Qts, it likely will help you out a lot.

In essence you need to lower your expectations and be content with good quality sound below concert hall spl levels for the big works and Grand Opera.

The increase in power you propose will buy you nothing.

Your speakers can handle up to 200 watts, but I would bet they will briefly handle at least twice that.

My recommendation is to get an amp comfortable driving loads down to 3 ohms in the 200 to 400 watt class, and that can deliver those sort of powers into 3 ohm loads.

I would seriously consider adding a good powerful sub.

If you wife will agree, try experimenting with judiciously placed sound absorbing panels strategically placed to quieten down some of the more prominent reflections.

To do what you want would require large high powered active speakers from the likes of PMC.

After pursuing this goal for a lifetime, I got there about six years ago.

It has taken the construction of large speakers with quality drivers of high power handling capacity and 2.5 KW of amp power. I can assure that amp power is only just adequate.

 

[GranteedEV]

I suppose absorption panels may work as well. GIK's art panels:

http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html

might go well with the WAF

 

[lreinstein]

Thanks, overwhelmed

Thank you all. I am grateful to all of you for your thoughtful and detailed responses. Frankly I am overwhelmed and now have many many specific questions that I need to ask. Is this Forum an OK place for me to follow up?

Larry

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you all. I am grateful to all of you for your thoughtful and detailed responses. Frankly I am overwhelmed and now have many many specific questions that I need to ask. Is this Forum an OK place for me to follow up?

Larry

Yes it is. Everyone has pretty much given you the same advice. So be very specific about what you don't understand, that needs further explanation.

 

[markw]

Semantics?

Yes, we welcome new members, but you might want to choose one of the more "specific" forums available here, such as speakers, amps, room & acoustics, whatever, depending o your "specific" question.

You'll probably find some relief using all the suggestions offered. It's rarely as simple as one fix.

You ain't no beginner no mo.

 

[Pyrrho]

If you have serious slap echo issues, the problem could be completely unrelated to your equipment and you're losing focus from heavy reflections in the room. You could put a million dollar stereo in a closet and it is going to sound terrible. You might need to address the room first.

Yes. The echo problem cannot be fixed by changing equipment. It is a problem with room acoustics.

In general, the more stuff in a room, the less echo one will have. Paintings, tapestries, bookshelves filled with books, rugs, cushy couches and chairs, etc., all impact this sort of thing.

In general, one wants to avoid having flat hard surfaces facing each other with nothing on them, particularly for large areas. Thus, having a carpet on the floor tends to stop quite a lot of problems generated from sounds bouncing back and forth between the ceiling and the floor, and putting up curtains or bookshelves or whatever along one wall will tend to interrupt sounds bouncing back and forth between that wall and the opposing wall.


Now, fixing this problem may or may not correct the issue of not liking the sound when the system is playing loud, but it will improve the sound at all volumes that the system is capable of producing. This should be attended to first, and then one can listen and decide if some of the equipment needs to be replaced.

 

[lreinstein]

WAF problems will be hard to deal with - I think I'd concentrate you with getting best out of your speaker.
With larger room, speakers and desire for louder volumes I think that bigger amp should help quite considerably. But there is another issue here:
You said the sound is "muddy" - which could be issue with bass.
I'd strongly recommend vs spending any money for external dac - you'd be much better off getting processor or use a good receiver as a processor

My suggestion is :
Get this Receiver - Marantz Sr6001 for $280 + S/H : http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR6001/Marantz-Sr6001-Receiver-100w-X-7ch-Hdmi-Home-Theater-Surround/1.html#!specifications
You'd connect you SB straight to receiver with digital spdif cable


This amplifier: http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm

Digital amplifier is what you after (slim boxes)are not cheap and I don't see how you could fit one in your humble budget, sorry budget power does require bigger boxes, but luckily you don't have to keep them next to speaker - they could be placed as far as 50ft or even farther, given your speaker cable is at-least gauge 12.

This option will allow to use PM7001 in smaller room or sell it.

As far as sub goes - unfortunately you don't the budget for it as a minimum I'd recommend for you is Epic Empire
but 6001 has MultEQ Auto Calibration which could help you partially cure your room issues


p.s: if you need cables or interconnects just get them from monoprice or if you like fancy - bjc

Thanks very much.

I am trying to understand if you are recommending a Receiver instead of an Integrated Amplifier? I thought that for HiFi the IA or PA and A was the best route.

Instead of a digital Amplifier I was going to consider VDAC or DacMagic with the system ... it would fit better with my Budget. Has anyone tried these? Is one better than the other ... Again I am using the Squeezebox (and also have Airport Express) into my IA.

 

[lreinstein]

If you are unhappy with the sound of your speakers, you should try changing those first. I would strongly suggest adding a sub as well.

For most of my listening situations I am very happy with them. I am really impressed with how they reproduce voice on some Diana Krall and Cecilia Bartoli recordings I have. Also great for small trios and combos ... that I listen to.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Thanks very much.

I am trying to understand if you are recommending a Receiver instead of an Integrated Amplifier? I thought that for HiFi the IA or PA and A was the best route.

Instead of a digital Amplifier I was going to consider VDAC or DacMagic with the system ... it would fit better with my Budget. Has anyone tried these? Is one better than the other ... Again I am using the Squeezebox (and also have Airport Express) into my IA.

I agree with most people who suggested to address room acoustics issues first.
But After that's done, equipment, starting with speakers (sub is also speaker) would next

The reason I suggested AVR instead of pre-amp or integrated amp is because this AVR already has excellent DAC built in. It is as good as most separate preamps and I has proper bass-management. All these you get for "free"

Spending money on dac (vs using "free" ones in AVR) would wasted money you could've spent for room treatments - which DO improve sound quality considerably.

Watch the videos here:
http://www.realtraps.com/videos.htm

 

[GranteedEV]

Thanks very much.

I am trying to understand if you are recommending a Receiver instead of an Integrated Amplifier? I thought that for HiFi the IA or PA and A was the best route.

A receiver is just an IA with a tuner.
An IA is just PA and A in the same box.

Is it possible that there were costs cut? It's possible in any of the above. In separate amp, in a preamp, in a receiver, in an integrated. Just pick a high value unit that has the features you require and measurably superior performance. Few receivers have the amp power of dedicated amps, though most receivers have top level DACs, good bass management, and a good receiver will have quality preamp outs. Some receivers have good amp sections too. There's literally no point in letting yourself get biased against """""non hi-fi electronics""""" unless the goal of your system is to prove that you spent a lot of money on """hi fi""" rather than to listen to music in high fidelity.

Instead of a digital Amplifier I was going to consider VDAC or DacMagic with the system ... it would fit better with my Budget. Has anyone tried these? Is one better than the other ... Again I am using the Squeezebox (and also have Airport Express) into my IA.

That's not going to help your problem in the slightest bit. It's literally a waste of money in every respect.

It's akin to having a car with worn out brakes, air-leaking tires, and a loose clutch, and trying to fix the problem by adding a spoiler.

 

[jonnythan]

It's akin to having a car with worn out brakes, air-leaking tires, and a loose clutch, and trying to fix the problem by adding a spoiler.

More like by replacing the alternator with an aftermarket unit of the same output.

OP really, really needs to deal with acoustic issues in the room first. THEN look at the speakers or amplification.