Upgrading to a more powerful Integrated Amp: Am I getting good advice?

[markw]

Agree.

OP really, really needs to deal with acoustic issues in the room first. THEN look at the speakers or amplification.

And worrying about a DAC would be as helpful as putting a band-aid on ones finger when one was shot in the chest.

 

[lreinstein]

confused about a few things

A receiver is just an IA with a tuner.
An IA is just PA and A in the same box.

Is it possible that there were costs cut? It's possible in any of the above. In separate amp, in a preamp, in a receiver, in an integrated. Just pick a high value unit that has the features you require and measurably superior performance. Few receivers have the amp power of dedicated amps, though most receivers have top level DACs, good bass management, and a good receiver will have quality preamp outs. Some receivers have good amp sections too. There's literally no point in letting yourself get biased against """""non hi-fi electronics""""" unless the goal of your system is to prove that you spent a lot of money on """hi fi""" rather than to listen to music in high fidelity.



That's not going to help your problem in the slightest bit. It's literally a waste of money in every respect.

It's akin to having a car with worn out brakes, air-leaking tires, and a loose clutch, and trying to fix the problem by adding a spoiler.

**** I understand that improving my non-ideal room acoustics would be helpful .... but for now that is totally impossible for non-technical (WAF) reasons. I know there are good looking treatments but for now ... I need to remove it from the table and try to make whatever other improvements I can.
So back to my dumb questions and why i thought (was told by hifi sales "expert" that I should get an integrated instead of a receiver:

- I am not sure what a digital receiver is as opposed to a receiver. can you explain?

- Is the suggestion to possibly replace my IA with a 2 channel receiver (not too many of those around) or an AV (7 channel) receiver? (I already use on of those in my home theater which is in a seperate room).

- One of the reasons i thought (was told) to stay away from a Receiver is that there is a lot of processing that can degrade the audio. I am not sure at which stage this processing takes place. If the input is Digital, does it do its bass management and whatever other equalization at the digital level, or does it go from digital to analog and then do the processing?

- You say the VDAC would not have much effect ... and yet on my system (with the IA) it was a subtle but definite improvement. Recall that I am using a Squeezebox Analog input into the IA and so am using the DAC in the squeezebox.

- On a 2-speaker HIFI, is there any advantage in sound to using the Audassey-type auto calibration routines to help with the room acoustics?

Thanks much.

ALSO, do you think I should post these questions on the Amplifier Forum, or do the same folks monitor most of the Forums?

Larry

 

[Pyrrho]

**** I understand that improving my non-ideal room acoustics would be helpful .... but for now that is totally impossible for non-technical (WAF) reasons. ...

In that case, I would probably not even bother to try to improve the sound. You will likely spend a lot of money for little or no improvement.


The only way more power will help is if your current amplifier is unable to cleanly drive your speakers to the levels you require. If there is excessive distortion from high volumes, that could be the cause, or it could be the speakers distorting due to nearing or reaching their limits, or it could be both the amplifier and speakers are reaching their limits. Speakers, too, have their volume limits, and as one approaches the limits of a speaker, distortion tends to rise rapidly. If the problem is due to the speakers reaching their limits, more power will do nothing to improve the sound. But it will lower the amount in your bank account. If the distortion is due to the amplifier reaching its limits, then more power would help.

Given the particular products in question, and given that we are discussing orchestral music, it is peak output power that will likely matter most. Judging from KEF's claims about your speakers, your amplifier should be able to cleanly drive your speakers to at least very near their limits, and I would be surprised if you could get more than about 3dB or so out of your speakers with more power. (With a sensitivity of 90dB, and a maximum output of 112dB, that 112dB should be reached at about 160 watts. 80 watts would get 109dB. Now, this will not be exact, due to the fact that speakers tend to compress the sound when reaching their limits, but I doubt you are going to get much more out of your speakers with a more powerful amplifier.)

If you require higher volumes (or the same volume done with less distortion), you almost certainly need to replace the speakers.


You can experiment with moving the speakers to different places in the room, and moving your listening position in the room, to effectively change the room acoustical interaction with the sound you are hearing. You may (or may not) prefer some such change. But it will not cure an echo.

But, by sitting closer to your speakers, you can effectively increase the volume, which will mean that you can turn down the volume control and reduce the distortion your speakers and amplifier are generating. There are, of course, limits to how close one can sit to speakers, and it will have other effects on the sound as well.

 

[jonnythan]

Some acoustic panels up on the ceiling might not be as bad as you think. A piece of painted white canvas on a wood frame could blend in on a cathedral ceiling.

 

[GranteedEV]

**** I understand that improving my non-ideal room acoustics would be helpful .... but for now that is totally impossible for non-technical (WAF) reasons. I know there are good looking treatments but for now ... I need to remove it from the table and try to make whatever other improvements I can.

other ""improvements"" like ostentatious cables, power conditioner, cable risers, DACs, amps, preamps, mundorf caps, wall outlets, and CD players?


Have fun chasing that last 5% - if even that - while the other 95% is a mess.

- I am not sure what a digital receiver is as opposed to a receiver. can you explain?

I suppose a receiver with a DAC? or a receiver with class D amps? I suppose is the key word, because it sounds like typical hi fi """"""expert""""" speak.

- Is the suggestion to possibly replace my IA with a 2 channel receiver (not too many of those around) or an AV (7 channel) receiver? (I already use on of those in my home theater which is in a seperate room).

Any receiver with dedicated bass management. A (good) AV receiver will work, but don't get a cheap entry level one as they have too many features cheaply shoved into a chassis at the expense of performance.

- One of the reasons i thought (was told) to stay away from a Receiver is that there is a lot of processing that can degrade the audio.

Do you know much """processing""" even the most barebones of recordings go through? Processing won't "degrade" the audio, especially not if it's in source direct mode. This is typical hi fi B.S.

If the input is Digital, does it do its bass management and whatever other equalization at the digital level, or does it go from digital to analog and then do the processing?

Good question. The real question should be "does it matter"

- You say the VDAC would not have much effect ... and yet on my system (with the IA) it was a subtle but definite improvement. Recall that I am using a Squeezebox Analog input into the IA and so am using the DAC in the squeezebox.

With sound pressure levels matched to within 0.1db, and a blindfold keeping you from knowing what you hear, the chances of you identifying any modern DAC are close to nil. Any difference you perceive is likely just a different volume.

Now if you've got a problematic component in the analog chain that's adding noise, an external DAC can be a good idea to bypass that component, but that's the gist of it. I'd bet you money that with the above conditions, all DACs would sound identical to your ears.

- On a 2-speaker HIFI, is there any advantage in sound to using the Audassey-type auto calibration routines to help with the room acoustics?

If getting Audyssey, you should really get something like a Denon 4311 with Audyssey XT32 and SubEQ, because older versions of audyssey like MultEQ really have poor resolution on their filters and so the changes made are too broad to be of use at higher frequencies. At sub frequencies, it can reallly help though.

The biggest advantage of room correction software IMO is that it corrects the baffle step problems created by your speaker's placement.

 

[markw]

May I present the Harmon/Kardon 3490, a 120 watt STEREO receiver with a built in DAC, phono stage, and sub outputs. That WILL be enough power for those speakers, considering that they are fairly limited in their ultimate volume capabilities to begin with.

They did a review on it here.

It may not have the high-end panache of a bunch of stuff your dealer wants to sell you, but it'll have the sound.

 

[Kenal0]

The type of music you are trying to listen to LOUD is very dynamic. Very quite passages followed by very demanding portions. The salesperson probably felt that you did not have enough headroom in your amplification to handle this. Unfortunately just adding more useable power is not always the answer. I think it might certainly might be some of the problem and is worth a try. I recently picked up an older Mcintosh 6100 integrated amplifier off of Craigslist for a small system in my house. It does not have the bells and whistles of some of the modern stuff is rated at 70 watts per channel and was made before there was anything resembling a remote however this amp sounds much better than the 100 wpc Pioneer modern receiver it is replacing. My source is an iPod. I do not put much stock in the power ratings put forth by some of the manufacturers I think the advise you are getting here about your room treatment is probably right on the money and will always limit how good your system CAN sound but
if you like the way the speakers sound and reasonable volume levels then try more power and see what happens. It might make the music sound more at ease and less forced and muddied at higher volumes. Just make sure whatever you get you can take it back if it does not solve the issue.
Kenal0

 

[lreinstein]

interesting thought

May I present the Harmon/Kardon 3490, a 120 watt STEREO receiver with a built in DAC, phono stage, and sub outputs. That WILL be enough power for those speakers, considering that they are fairly limited in their ultimate volume capabilities to begin with.

They did a review on it here.

It may not have the high-end panache of a bunch of stuff your dealer wants to sell you, but it'll have the sound.

Mark,

Thanks for this. I had not seen this before. Some questions:

- As you know I am new to this so I wonder what the sound quality will be like compared to my Marantz integrated.

- How important are THD figures ... what i mean is ... below what% does it stop mattering?

- The review suggests that this is good for small and medium sized rooms. Mine is a large room. Any thoughts?

- Are you familiar with the DAC in this unit? Is it a high quality one like the one being marketed in dacmagic? keep in mind that i now use the built in DAC's in Airport Express, and in Squeezebox ... is this a better one?

- Does the lack of "bass management" mean that if i set up a powered subwoofer to the system that the receiver will also be pushing the low bass into my main speakers?

- you say my speakers are fairly limited in their volume ... where can i learn more about this and the meaning of the units (is it 90db?)?

I appreciate all the help that you and other members of the Forum are giving. I know it is frustrating since i am probably asking questions that have been answered but that i still may not fully understand. I have a lot to learn.

Larry

 

[markw]

Mark,

Thanks for this. I had not seen this before. Some questions:

- As you know I am new to this so I wonder what the sound quality will be like compared to my Marantz integrated.

You won't hear a difference.

- How important are THD figures ... what i mean is ... below what% does it stop mattering?.

negligible. You do know that there are traces of poisons in all the water you drink, don't you?

- The review suggests that this is good for small and medium sized rooms. Mine is a large room. Any thoughts?.

The audible difference between that receiver and the amp your wunnerful dealer suggested are not noticeable. You didn't read the links I provided in my first post here, did you? If you did, you wold have already known that.

- Are you familiar with the DAC in this unit? Is it a high quality one like the one being marketed in dacmagic? keep in mind that i now use the built in DAC's in Airport Express, and in Squeezebox ... is this a better one?.

As another said, the audible difference are most likely due to volume differences.

- Does the lack of "bass management" mean that if i set up a powered subwoofer to the system that the receiver will also be pushing the low bass into my main speakers?.

So? They will simpy ignore it. You can adjust the bass on the subwoofers low pass filter. That's what I did, and my system blows the hell outta yous. Besides, that "bass management" would force the signal into the dreaded digital domain you and your dealer so dread.

- you say my speakers are fairly limited in their volume ... where can i learn more about this and the meaning of the units (is it 90db?)?.

Well, the numbers I stated in my first post (Post # 5) here came directly from the KEF site. As for the meaning of those DB numbers, that was covered in one of the links in that same post. You might benefit from reading them. I/we don't post here just to look impressive. You have to take some initiative on your own to learn from the materials provided.

Now, on another matter, I, and some others, are seriously wondering if you're really here to improve your listening pleasure or simply to engage as many people as possible and to pose as many questions as you can just for the fun having people answer them endlessly. By blatently ignoring what has been offered here as the real solutons to your complaint and focusing on everything else, you leave us no choice but to come to that conclusion.

On that note, this concludes my participation in this thread. Enjoy, and good luck.