P

ParadiseSound

Audioholic Intern
Same ol’ tiring question, I know. But I am planning (financially) on an upgrade to my living areas front 3 speakers firstly. Sometime later I will update the very old surrounds/heights speakers. My living area is large, 18 x 25 with 17’ ceilings. What I currently have is a Sony 55” tv, Pioneer Elite Vsx-LX103 Reciever, BS22LR fronts, BS22C Center, (old)JBL surrounds and (old) Aiwa surrounds used as rear heights and a Klipsch R100 sub. These speakers/sub were put together from what was in the closet and rear heights were used because the wiring was already in the corners, at the ceiling, on the 25’ length wall, not in ceiling mounted, there are little diagonal shelves in these corners. New purchases are the Sony (XBR900F TV and Pioneer LX103 Reciever.
As you can imagine, these speakers don’t have anywhere near a rich dynamic sound. My Reciever will drive them to loud but they just don’t make us feel like we have a dynamic surround system. We hear what sounds like loud tv with granted less distortion but that’s about it. Both from thier entry level capabilities and the large room. So as soon as I can I want to upgrade. My budget is $1200 before tax. I do like the warm sounds these cheap AJ speakers are known for but hate that center speaker. We watch mostly Directv and movies, very rarely listen to music. We do like action movies but the (even tho small and old) surrounds/rear heights are not bothering us as bad as the fronts and center. I have adjusted that center thru my Reciever both in level and manual EQ but dialogue is sometimes hard to hear.
Is this enough info to advise me on front center replacement? I want to make sure my Pioneer LX103 can drive them. There is a setting in configuration to change from 6ohns to 4 but since this Reciever is described as an entry level into the Pioneer Elites, i’m Just not sure it could drive 3 4ohms speakers. I’m not audiophile experienced tho.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
The Pioneer center is a weak link -- there is only so much juice that you can squeeze out of a orange -- I would look to change the 3 fronts and upgrade the sub -- use the BS-22 as surrounds. If you have some money now, then this is a real good deal >>

Infinity R162 on sale
https://www.infinityspeakers.com/reference-series-home/

Infinity RC263 three-way center
https://www.infinityspeakers.com/reference-series-home/REFERENCE+RC263.html?cgid=reference-series-home&dwvar_REFERENCE RC263_color=Black-USA-Current#start=1

HSU Vtf-2 sub
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk5.html

Replace the AIWA surround speakers with the BS-22

Do not lower the ohm switch on your receiver
 
P

ParadiseSound

Audioholic Intern
Thank you for your quick reply. I actually HAVE the Infinity fronts and center you linked to in my Master Bedroom setup. I love them but they are too whopping big for the bookshelf the fronts sit on (not more than 14”H) and the weight (not more than 25lbs) center speaker stand will sit on. But I still would like to do better than the Infinity’s, the master bedroom space is a small area at the end of the Room with an 8’ ceiling. And remember my budget is $1200 but then again I got the Infinity’s on sale for $585 total for fronts/center. And the Aiwa tiny speakers are the rear heights not surrounds. The wiring and shelf was already there so I used them (rear surrounds from an old Aiwa stereo system) because the diagonal shelf they sit on is very small and these are very small speakers and I had them. The surrounds are JBL small round all metal surrounds from a 1995 surround sound system. I could disconnect the rear Aiwa heights and replace the old JBL surrounds later, but the sound fine. Or I could replace these JBL with the BS22.
 
K

kini

Full Audioholic
Klipsch RP series would work well for your situation. Should be able to find the first gen RP for a good discount.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
but dialogue is sometimes hard to hear...
I believe that is the story of most people's lives. :D

In general, the usual remedy for low dialogue level is to boost the Center Channel Level by 1dB to 5dB or whatever works. Don't be shy.

I think many people might associate lack of "hard-hitting bass" as lack of dynamic sound. The usual remedy is to get better subwoofers and/or adjust the Bass EQ from 20Hz-80Hz.

Does your Pioneer have manual Parametric EQ settings for the Subwoofer that will allow you to increase the Bass EQ? For example, 30Hz +2dB, 40Hz +2dB, 60Hz +2dB, 80Hz +2dB. But you probably need to decrease the Subwoofer Channel Level when you boost the Bass EQ in the Parametric EQ settings.
 
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ParadiseSound

Audioholic Intern
Klipsch RP series would work well for your situation. Should be able to find the first gen RP for a good discount.
Yeah, I’m thinking Klipsch, Wharfedale Reva or Martin Logan’s. Not really wanting 4ohms the ML’s have tho. But I have no experience with any speakers other than Pioneer AJ entry level and Infinity Reference. Again, I like the Infinity but they’re too big and I would like a little better quality than the Infinity, if possible in my $1200 budget. I’m wanting to hear from you guys that have much more experience.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Look at Klipsch RP -- Focal Chorus 706 -- Wharfedale Reva

Crutchfield has $10 returns on bookshelf speakers

If you were brave (more costly on returns) I would recommend Canton Chrono from AC4L

From NHT look at their C series
 
P

ParadiseSound

Audioholic Intern
Can I get some more help here. My brain is spinning from online research for what want to replace the bs22 Pioneer AJ’s with across the 3 fronts. Every time I think I have found a brand/model I like, I find something I don’t. I am the W in the WAF scenario so I am picky about certain things. My hubby agrees on this one...we don’t like shiny anything in our home decor. Satin enamel when painting/varnishing is fine but never gloss. So many nice speakers are gloss black, not our taste at all.
These are the other requirements I keep in mind when I search:
1. Most important is voice clarity, in that center. We are 100% tv/streaming movie watchers.
2. My AVR is a Pioneer VSX-LX103, and has a setting in Configuration to change to 4ohms but still I think running 3 @ 4ohms might be too much but then again maybe not. But I do try to search for 6 or 8ohms speakers
3. The L/R must be able to go in bookshelf that sit on each side of tv console.
4. Weight of center speaker can not exceed 25 lbs because that is max the stand will hold for center speaker
5. I really want something that definitely sounds better than those basic Pioneer AJ speakers. One would think since the l/r/c of those can be had for less than $200, it’s easy. My budget for the front 3 is $1200 b4 tax and I can push that a little if necessary.
I have a large den, 18x25 w/17’ ceilings, large area rugs on hardwood floor. I have JBL surrounds and a Klipsch 10”sub. The surrounds and sub can be replaced later. I like my Pioneer AVR and won’t replace it.
I am seriously looking at Wharfedale Reva 2, on paper they sound great, especially since they seem to be ok going in a bookshelf. But all options are glossy. I can go to Bestbuy and listen to Klipsch, Martin Logan and B&W, plus listen to the sales folks that will tell something they have will be perfect. They are about 60 miles away and I really don’t want to believe them and get home and voice dialogue is not clear enough.
Am I hopeless to recommend something one more time, (meaning in addition to what you guys did above). And many thanks for those taking time responding above.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thank you for your quick reply. I actually HAVE the Infinity fronts and center you linked to in my Master Bedroom setup. I love them but they are too whopping big for the bookshelf the fronts sit on (not more than 14”H) and the weight (not more than 25lbs) center speaker stand will sit on. But I still would like to do better than the Infinity’s, the master bedroom space is a small area at the end of the Room with an 8’ ceiling. And remember my budget is $1200 but then again I got the Infinity’s on sale for $585 total for fronts/center. And the Aiwa tiny speakers are the rear heights not surrounds. The wiring and shelf was already there so I used them (rear surrounds from an old Aiwa stereo system) because the diagonal shelf they sit on is very small and these are very small speakers and I had them. The surrounds are JBL small round all metal surrounds from a 1995 surround sound system. I could disconnect the rear Aiwa heights and replace the old JBL surrounds later, but the sound fine. Or I could replace these JBL with the BS22.
Don't waste your money. You won't fill that space like you want with bookshelf speakers. Just not possible. To do what you want will take serious big boy speakers and big amps. That is a huge volume.

If you want to do this on the cheap you need to find another space in the house for your HT. For that space you are looking at prospeakers. You might try and look for vintage Altec Lansing, JBL Klipsch or EV versions of their cinema speakers. That space is 7,650 cu.ft. Very few domestic speakers are designed to fill that type of volume with any degree of realism. Any domestic speakers will be really expensive and require massive amplification. You just don't have the budget to justice to that type of space.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Don't waste your money. You won't fill that space like you want with bookshelf speakers. Just not possible. To do what you want will take serious big boy speakers and big amps. That is a huge volume.

If you want to do this on the cheap you need to find another space in the house for your HT. For that space you are looking at prospeakers. You might try and look for vintage Altec Lansing, JBL Klipsch or EV versions of their cinema speakers. That space is 7,650 cu.ft. Very few domestic speakers are designed to fill that type of volume with any degree of realism. Any domestic speakers will be really expensive and require massive amplification. You just don't have the budget to justice to that type of space.
I doubt very much they will be listening at concert levels. A typical system will do fine for most people, even in that room, so long as they don't listen to live sound levels, and so long as they are not seated too far from the speakers. If they are seated on the adjacent side of a 25' room, then yes, I would agree with you, but I don't think that it likely the case.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I doubt very much they will be listening at concert levels. A typical system will do fine for most people, even in that room, so long as they don't listen to live sound levels, and so long as they are not seated too far from the speakers. If they are seated on the adjacent side of a 25' room, then yes, I would agree with you, but I don't think that it likely the case.
Unless they are so close that the speakers are almost headphones, this is not going to work. The comment that the current speakers sound only like loud TV is telling. That is exactly what happens when you put small speakers in a large space like that the tenor range will just evaporate. It does literally sound like loud TV speakers.
I don't know how much experience you have had designing for large spaces like that and larger. I have had quite a lot and its a different ball game.
At his budget and size limitation it will still sound like a loud TV. The sound will be disembodied without stronger measures.
 
P

ParadiseSound

Audioholic Intern
Yeah, I don’t buy that I can get an improvement. The way the furniture is arranged, the MLP is 10’ in front of the tv (bookshelves on each side of tv), center speaker on a stand in front of tv, JBL surrounds on a table at ear level, one on each side of MLP. And I do have another area for home entertainment. The master bedroom is where I watch tv and listen to a 5.1 setup that sounds wonderful. I think I mentioned above that I have Infinity Reference L/R/C and a 12” sub. I love it but the l/r/c are huge and I don’t especially don’t want that big center. Hand I have very different tastes in tv so this large room setup is where he watches. We are retired so have lots of time and i do join him for a movie we both want to watch. And I do see the environment with the lower 8’ ceiling makes a big difference in the master bedroom vs this big den. It seems I must be asking for too much here tho so I’ll just go on my way.
 
P

ParadiseSound

Audioholic Intern
Unless they are so close that the speakers are almost headphones, this is not going to work. The comment that the current speakers sound only like loud TV is telling. That is exactly what happens when you put small speakers in a large space like that the tenor range will just evaporate. It does literally sound like loud TV speakers.
I don't know how much experience you have had designing for large spaces like that and larger. I have had quite a lot and its a different ball game.
At his budget and size limitation it will still sound like a loud TV. The sound will be disembodied without stronger measures.
I’m not really arguing with you, you very well may be right. BUT, they sounded like loud tv speakers when they were in the master bedroom before I replaced them with Infinity Reference ones in there. Big improvement. I mean, jeez the Pioneer AJ speakers are $99 plus the center is very poorly reviewed. But again, I say I’ll Be on my way. I don’t want to be thought of as a fool. I’m not asking for concert deafening sound. I just think my budget will get me better than the AJ bs22’s but I’m afraid I’m going to choose wrongly (for issues like bookshelf placement and will my Pioneer AVR lx103 drive them) and that’s why I had “thought” I would ask here.
 
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