Ultra Surrounds and question about feet for PB16

ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
It may be that no mechanical damping system will get the job done. Your sub is slamming your floors, walls, and ceiling with pressure waves. Isolation platforms do nothing to alleviate that. All they can do is reduce some of the rocking motion that the cone imparts on the enclosure. You can't have bass without the structure absorbing that acoustic energy in some manner. One thing you might be able to do is use the sub in a near-field placement so that it doesn't have to be cranked up as high to achieve the same SPL at your listening position. That should help to reduce structural vibrations.
This. Times like 100,000.
I can’t stress enough how fragile the balance is of what I employed. It doesn’t take much for the sound waves to dominate over the mechanical energy.
I entered into this knowing that I had trampoline floors on rubberband joists. I don’t walk heavy, yet when I walk into that (my) room, everything would shake. I knew, likewise, this would pose a problem. A good deal of research led me to what I employ: vibration damping plus floor coupling.
What I can say is that when I just used the feet, I did notice a difference. Once I got the pads up in cones, the overall improvement was fairly significant.
When I run my sub properly integrated with my speakers; that is turned down lower than what Audyssey recommends, upright bass in a jazz combo sounds realistic/believable, and does not vibrate my @$$. If I turn it up to Audyssey recommended levels, that same bass is too hot and becomes not believable. On the other hand, that level works great for electronica and movies. And with that, the pressure waves pick up significantly, and defeat some of what I did. That it’s still only a fraction of what it used to be like, prior to isolation and coupling, is telling.
But Shady has the right of it. There is only so much that can be done to control powerful subs. It might be a heretical statement, but turning the sub down to believable levels is a great start: remember, you can always trim it back up when you so desire. :)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Almost sounds like those feet should just be included in the purchase with each sub. :)
I think they are installed stock on the PC models... but none others. I agree: very silly, this. For the cost of the upper tier subs, they should be stock... all 3000 series and above!
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
The surrounds absolutely play a lesser role in the speaker hierarchy. They don't do a heck of a lot except play ambient noises and effects sounds. You don't need a pristine speaker to do any of that. Those who think they need beefy surround speakers ought to turn off their front stage speakers and sub and just listen to the surrounds alone on a surround sound mix sometime. They will be surprised at just how little the surrounds are actually doing.
I will agree that the surrounds are less important, and do less overall. But I will completely disagree that they don’t do a heck of a lot. This will obviously be dependent on the soundtrack but IMO, they’re just as important as any other speaker(although I do agree they don’t have to monstrous) in creating a cohesive enveloping seamless environment. Especially with modern soundtracks. That’s like saying, unplug one of your mains and see how little the other one is doing! Lol
FWIW, taking care to properly place surround speakers can be just as important as which ones you choose.
 
S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
This. Times like 100,000.
I can’t stress enough how fragile the balance is of what I employed. It doesn’t take much for the sound waves to dominate over the mechanical energy.
I entered into this knowing that I had trampoline floors on rubberband joists. I don’t walk heavy, yet when I walk into that (my) room, everything would shake. I knew, likewise, this would pose a problem. A good deal of research led me to what I employ: vibration damping plus floor coupling.
What I can say is that when I just used the feet, I did notice a difference. Once I got the pads up in cones, the overall improvement was fairly significant.
When I run my sub properly integrated with my speakers; that is turned down lower than what Audyssey recommends, upright bass in a jazz combo sounds realistic/believable, and does not vibrate my @$$. If I turn it up to Audyssey recommended levels, that same bass is too hot and becomes not believable. On the other hand, that level works great for electronica and movies. And with that, the pressure waves pick up significantly, and defeat some of what I did. That it’s still only a fraction of what it used to be like, prior to isolation and coupling, is telling.
But Shady has the right of it. There is only so much that can be done to control powerful subs. It might be a heretical statement, but turning the sub down to believable levels is a great start: remember, you can always trim it back up when you so desire. :)
Too powerful a sub....what a great problem to have!!! Haha!!!! :) I'll mess with it some when I get a little extra time, been swamped. Still LOVING this setup so far, though!!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Too powerful a sub....what a great problem to have!!! Haha!!!! :) I'll mess with it some when I get a little extra time, been swamped. Still LOVING this setup so far, though!!
Random thought:
I mentioned the "I" word... Integration. I agree with some that complain most subs are set up too loud to integrate properly. Realistic sound is what I'm after... I listen to mostly music, 2-channel and Multichannel, and I use my subs. In our common goal to accurately reproduce the recorded, or created, event we spend gobs of money to buy the best gear we can afford. :) Our goal is to achieve amazing sound quality at levels rivaling that of a concert or cinema experience. (Granted, the concert experience is actually not healthy for the ears, usually... and I've been to cinemas that have crossed the line a few times, too. where dynamic peaks are painful rather than thrilling. Regardless....)
So for music: our goal is the accurate reproduction... not of the performance in the studio... but of the recording/mixing/overall production of that occurrence. Same for movies, and similarly, electronica: most of the sounds we hear in the soundtrack are manufactured, and what we are hoping to achieve is the accurate reproduction of their efforts... most certainly NOT realism... as it wasn't real to begin with (usually). ;)
So back to integration... what does that mean? To me, for music, i said it needs to be believable. I'm an old Jazzer. Nothing as pure for me as 3 or 4 cats jamming without amplification. I'm a saxophonist, so for me, Joe Lovano is one of the best modern day Tenor men still kicking... but go back and look at Joe Henderson, John Coltrane, Dexter Gordon, Wayne Shorter... So many I can't name them all!!!... but play a straight ahead jazz cut like Tanya. Recorded back in '64 IIRC. If I were in a small club (hell, even if this was happening in my home), this is almost what I would expect to hear and feel. Then look at something like this recording by Joe Lovano, Evolution, 1991 I think.
Compare and contrast: the second recording is hotter overall, levels are higher... Bass is very strong, and even though I would say in most live performances you would not quite feel the bass that mach. The Gordon cut is a little light... almost dainty. As I said, it's "almost" what I would expect. Both saxophonists are there in the forefront, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
This holds true for Rock as well. Orchestral, too.
If you find that right balance where sounds you know are believable... you, like me, will probably take a few dBs off your gain and be fine! When I want, I have ample room to trim up another 5-10dB easily... hell, more if I choose, all without even touching the gain on the sub. My Movies, Electronica, and Hip Hop still THUMP! But that Jazz Bass and Orchestral/Art works don't... unless they are meant too! (And you will know when they are meant to!)

100+ musicians hitting a FFF passage with full percussion complement is considered an unsafe work environment in the EU! There are actually laws that make it very difficult for world class orchestras in the EU to rehearse at full volume due to the potential for hearing damage!!!
Just for kicks: give this a whirl: Richard Wagner: Der Fliegende Hollander; Ouverture, performed by Frankfurt Radio Symphony, Marek Janowski, Conductor. This looks like it might be a smaller orchestra than what Wagner would've usually employed for many of his operas. (His last Opera, Parsifal, had over 240 musicians in the orchestra and Chorus, alone! Plus soloists!!!

Anyway... food for thought, perhaps, as you play and tune your system. ;) Always have fun! Believe me... that's the most important part! I'm sure my landlord heard that Wagner Overture as I was playing it at 0, and hes right out back. :p
But while your having fun... look for that balance point too! :cool:
 
S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
Random thought:
I mentioned the "I" word... Integration. I agree with some that complain most subs are set up too loud to integrate properly. Realistic sound is what I'm after... I listen to mostly music, 2-channel and Multichannel, and I use my subs. In our common goal to accurately reproduce the recorded, or created, event we spend gobs of money to buy the best gear we can afford. :) Our goal is to achieve amazing sound quality at levels rivaling that of a concert or cinema experience. (Granted, the concert experience is actually not healthy for the ears, usually... and I've been to cinemas that have crossed the line a few times, too. where dynamic peaks are painful rather than thrilling. Regardless....)
So for music: our goal is the accurate reproduction... not of the performance in the studio... but of the recording/mixing/overall production of that occurrence. Same for movies, and similarly, electronica: most of the sounds we hear in the soundtrack are manufactured, and what we are hoping to achieve is the accurate reproduction of their efforts... most certainly NOT realism... as it wasn't real to begin with (usually). ;)
So back to integration... what does that mean? To me, for music, i said it needs to be believable. I'm an old Jazzer. Nothing as pure for me as 3 or 4 cats jamming without amplification. I'm a saxophonist, so for me, Joe Lovano is one of the best modern day Tenor men still kicking... but go back and look at Joe Henderson, John Coltrane, Dexter Gordon, Wayne Shorter... So many I can't name them all!!!... but play a straight ahead jazz cut like Tanya. Recorded back in '64 IIRC. If I were in a small club (hell, even if this was happening in my home), this is almost what I would expect to hear and feel. Then look at something like this recording by Joe Lovano, Evolution, 1991 I think.
Compare and contrast: the second recording is hotter overall, levels are higher... Bass is very strong, and even though I would say in most live performances you would not quite feel the bass that mach. The Gordon cut is a little light... almost dainty. As I said, it's "almost" what I would expect. Both saxophonists are there in the forefront, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
This holds true for Rock as well. Orchestral, too.
If you find that right balance where sounds you know are believable... you, like me, will probably take a few dBs off your gain and be fine! When I want, I have ample room to trim up another 5-10dB easily... hell, more if I choose, all without even touching the gain on the sub. My Movies, Electronica, and Hip Hop still THUMP! But that Jazz Bass and Orchestral/Art works don't... unless they are meant too! (And you will know when they are meant to!)

100+ musicians hitting a FFF passage with full percussion complement is considered an unsafe work environment in the EU! There are actually laws that make it very difficult for world class orchestras in the EU to rehearse at full volume due to the potential for hearing damage!!!
Just for kicks: give this a whirl: Richard Wagner: Der Fliegende Hollander; Ouverture, performed by Frankfurt Radio Symphony, Marek Janowski, Conductor. This looks like it might be a smaller orchestra than what Wagner would've usually employed for many of his operas. (His last Opera, Parsifal, had over 240 musicians in the orchestra and Chorus, alone! Plus soloists!!!

Anyway... food for thought, perhaps, as you play and tune your system. ;) Always have fun! Believe me... that's the most important part! I'm sure my landlord heard that Wagner Overture as I was playing it at 0, and hes right out back. :p
But while your having fun... look for that balance point too! :cool:
Something magical about sound, isn't there? I know I've been working more hours....ON PURPOSE....as I sit in my home office at night, play a Bob Marley genre with different artists, and listen to it all unfold as I work and enjoy ice cold beer. When I lift weights, run, row, whatever, it's all punk rock, high energy, much like most of my days anyway, go, go, go, but at night? No, that's different. I'm not as good with the artist's names and the like, but some night it's just some easy listening piano....others a little jazz....sometimes acoustical. Lately I've all about the reggae as it ceases to amaze me how it can rock your brains out while giving you such smoothness all at once.

My listening choice of late has been bass at -10, period. I'm sure in time I'll experiment, but it just hasn't failed me yet in any way. The punch and power I look for is there, and yet the smoothness remains. I can't imagine what it will be like adding any more speakers or additional components, but for me it's just perfect right now as I envisioned when I started this. It amazes me initially it was all about Atmos! I couldn't be further from that right now if I tried. The cool thing? I know in time I'll experiment with other angles of this, even might know a few more of these complicated terms I hear on here...just really enjoying this, all of it!! I didn't even have to mention the slam of movies either, though that kicks such major ass it's hard to put into words for me.

Yeah, man, appreciate you guys and all your enthusiasm, really has rubbed off on me.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Welcome to the rabbit hole!

Btw, how’s that soundbar lookin now? Glad you stuck with all our blathering and carrying on. It’s a wonderful world...
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Something magical about sound, isn't there? I know I've been working more hours....ON PURPOSE....as I sit in my home office at night, play a Bob Marley genre with different artists, and listen to it all unfold as I work and enjoy ice cold beer. When I lift weights, run, row, whatever, it's all punk rock, high energy, much like most of my days anyway, go, go, go, but at night? No, that's different. I'm not as good with the artist's names and the like, but some night it's just some easy listening piano....others a little jazz....sometimes acoustical. Lately I've all about the reggae as it ceases to amaze me how it can rock your brains out while giving you such smoothness all at once.

My listening choice of late has been bass at -10, period. I'm sure in time I'll experiment, but it just hasn't failed me yet in any way. The punch and power I look for is there, and yet the smoothness remains. I can't imagine what it will be like adding any more speakers or additional components, but for me it's just perfect right now as I envisioned when I started this. It amazes me initially it was all about Atmos! I couldn't be further from that right now if I tried. The cool thing? I know in time I'll experiment with other angles of this, even might know a few more of these complicated terms I hear on here...just really enjoying this, all of it!! I didn't even have to mention the slam of movies either, though that kicks such major ass it's hard to put into words for me.

Yeah, man, appreciate you guys and all your enthusiasm, really has rubbed off on me.
Hah hah love the passion you have my friend! I know we are all relating! As far as your surrounds go I'm going to agree with William here!

Although they play less of a role that role especially these days is just as important. Just listen to a movie like Blade Runner 2049 for example. And I feel the same way about heights I'm never cheapining out on my heights!

I don't think you should cheap out on any speaker period. But that's the audioholic in me.

Since I've went to all towers in my setup maaan I'm never going back. It's friggin awesome!!!!!

I don't think you need ultra towers for your surrounds but since your doing this right and adding on a bit at a time f@$! It put some ultra bookshelves up as your surrounds.

EBay has great deals on ultra surrounds all the time!
 
E

Ed Mullen

Manufacturer
Now another stupid question: So the SVS Sound Feet alone sometimes aren't enough to get the job done essentially? Or does it depend on the room layout? Educate me a little more...
The SoundPath Subwoofer Isolation System feet are great for wooden floor applications where you can get floor boom/resonance and also associated buzz/rattle.

If the flooring surface is concrete slab - there won't be any benefit because concrete doesn't transmit much tactile energy in the subwoofer bandwidth. Stomp on a concrete slab floor and it won't boom or resonate at all - you'll just get a sore foot.

There will always be the acoustic sound pressure portion of the subwoofer output. The Isolation System won't change/attenuate that obviously. So any buzz/rattle in the room from acoustic sound pressure (like picture frames, etc.) can be treated with Blu-tack or foam strips, etc.
 
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