Ukraine – Russia … not more of the last thread

M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
The Russian "firehose of falsehood" propaganda model reminds me of the "flood the zone with sh*t" approach we've seen in this country.

>>>We characterize the contemporary Russian model for propaganda as “the firehose of falsehood” because of two of its distinctive features: high numbers of channels and messages and a shameless willingness to disseminate partial truths or outright fictions. In the words of one observer, “[N]ew Russian propaganda entertains, confuses and overwhelms the audience.”2

Contemporary Russian propaganda has at least two other distinctive features. It is also rapid, continuous, and repetitive, and it lacks commitment to consistency.<<<


The Rand article is from 2016, but I don't see much change in Russia's approach.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
The Russian "firehose of falsehood" propaganda model reminds me of the "flood the zone with sh*t" approach we've seen in this country.

>>>We characterize the contemporary Russian model for propaganda as “the firehose of falsehood” because of two of its distinctive features: high numbers of channels and messages and a shameless willingness to disseminate partial truths or outright fictions. In the words of one observer, “[N]ew Russian propaganda entertains, confuses and overwhelms the audience.”2

Contemporary Russian propaganda has at least two other distinctive features. It is also rapid, continuous, and repetitive, and it lacks commitment to consistency.<<<


The Rand article is from 2016, but I don't see much change in Russia's approach.
One aim of all these falsehoods and half-truths is to make people doubt everything they see and hear as this will erode our trust in our liberal democracy, government as well as justice system. Not only in USA, of course, but in many other countries, like in Europe.

As you write it’s not only the Russians doing this, and in USA this seems most prevalent among the Republicans. A large majority of Republican voters still think that Biden didn’t win the presidency.

You can of course see this among those not identifying as Republican, like in another thread where a poster steadfastly believes there is no voter suppression in USA, despite all the given evidence to the contrary. A bona fide voter suppression denier.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
The AP retracted a story it ran last Tuesday stating that Russian missiles landed in Poland, and AP also fired the reporter responsible for the story.

>>>The Associated Press scared much of the world last Tuesday when it alerted readers that “a senior U.S. intelligence official” said “Russian missiles crossed into NATO member Poland, killing two people.”

That report, which was widely cited across the internet and on cable news, was taken offline the following day and replaced with an editor’s note admitting the single source was wrong and that “subsequent reporting showed that the missiles were Russian-made and most likely fired by Ukraine in defense against a Russian attack.”

On Monday, the AP fired James LaPorta, the investigative reporter responsible for that story, Confider has learned.<<<


 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
In a series of tweets, Greg Yudin states that those who rule Russia have not changed their view that Ukraine is Russian territory, military defeats will not change their view, and they are preparing the population of Russia for a perpetual war and "There will be no peace as long as Putin is in power."

>>>An important investigation released by Dossier Center on the ongoing planning within FSB to invade and annex Moldova. Unfortunately, I was not able to find any English translation 1/11

The investigation makes evident what many people, including myself, have been saying for a long time: the invasion of Moldova is not a question of whether, but a question of when. It is now delayed out of tactical considerations 2/11

Most interestingly, the film shows a leaked footage of an anniversary of FSB officer in charge of Moldova. With this, one gets a rare window into the thinking of people who rule Russia now. Guests are part of the Russian ruling elite gravitating towards security services 3/11

They are obsessed with restoring the empire, which is supposed to bring glory and wealth. The common dream is to bring the lands back by force and deception. Patriotism is understood as imperialism: one guest emphasizes that one can only love motherland in its Soviet borders 4/11

Make no mistake: this is the thinking that Putin shares and promotes. These people are his soldiers, he was selecting and raising them for decades 5/11

There are voices that maybe Putin has learned something from this war. No. His plans haven’t changed one iota since February. Ukraine cannot exist, it is not a state, and there can be no Ukrainian nation. The same applies to Moldova 6/11

No military defeats will correct or diminish these aspirations. As long as these people are in power in Russia, there is exactly zero chance for agreement. No Ukrainian territory can be recognized as legitimately Ukrainian – it is simply territory not conquered yet 7/11

There is a remarkable shift in the rhetoric of Russian officials. While in the early days of the war they tried to convince the people that this will end soon, the message is now very different. All officials tell the people that this war is FOREVER 8/11

The discussion of post-war prospects for Russia is absent. The government prepares the population for a perpetual war. All military, economic, education, and demographic policies are adjusted to that end 9/11

They are repeating this day after day after day: Kyiv is a Russian city. Medvedev doesn’t push his own peculiar hawkish line, he simply restates what he overhears from his lifelong boss 10/11

Those who desperately look for signs of readiness for negotiations, tend to engage in dangerous wishful thinking. There will be no peace as long as Putin is in power. His elites are incompatible with peace, it contradicts their worldview 11/11<<<

 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
The AP retracted a story it ran last Tuesday stating that Russian missiles landed in Poland, and AP also fired the reporter responsible for the story.

>>>The Associated Press scared much of the world last Tuesday when it alerted readers that “a senior U.S. intelligence official” said “Russian missiles crossed into NATO member Poland, killing two people.”

That report, which was widely cited across the internet and on cable news, was taken offline the following day and replaced with an editor’s note admitting the single source was wrong and that “subsequent reporting showed that the missiles were Russian-made and most likely fired by Ukraine in defense against a Russian attack.”

On Monday, the AP fired James LaPorta, the investigative reporter responsible for that story, Confider has learned.<<<


Journalists are human like the rest of us and make mistakes like the rest of us. However, due to the magnitude and possible consequences of some events, there are some stories you cannot get wrong.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
Journalists are human like the rest of us and make mistakes like the rest of us. However, due to the magnitude and possible consequences of some events, there are some stories you cannot get wrong.
Yeah, I agree, but I do wonder exactly how this happened. The AP says their standards require more than one anonymous source unless the "material comes from an authoritative figure who provides information so detailed that there is no question of its accuracy." I'm not sure who decides if this criteria is satisfied in a given case.

It's ironic that this error is potentially worse because the AP is normally reliable so people tend to rely on the AP.
 
M

Mojo Navigator

Audioholic Intern
I am not a conspiracy theorist but other points of view exist.

NATO is not eager to start WW3 for obvious reasons. I appauld the restraint shown by NATO. Provocation and escalation are military strategies. The Ukrainians are doing an admirable job on decimating the Russian military.

The missiles that crashed onto Polish territory were indeed Soviet made. That is what the Ukrainians have in their arsenal. S-300 missiles are surface to air missiles, intended to shoot down incoming missiles. They are programmed to self destruct if they do not engage their target to minimize collateral damage on the ground.

The Russians have recently modified their stockpile of S-300 missiles to be ground to ground in order to terrorize the civilian population. Older Russian munitions are not known for their accuracy.

The coordinates of the site in Poland could be a targeting error by the group that is tasked with programming the missiles. (Kyiv and Lviv coordinates.)


 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
The US DOD just awarded Raytheon a $1,216,207,829 contract for 6 NASAMS systems that will be delivered to Ukraine.

I'm just glad they held firm and talked them down from $1,216,207,830. That seemed pretty outrageous for 6 NASAMS systems.

 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Ninja
The US DOD just awarded Raytheon a $1,216,207,829 contract for 6 NASAMS systems that will be delivered to Ukraine.

I'm just glad they held firm and talked them down from $1,216,207,830. That seemed pretty outrageous for 6 NASAMS systems.

Wow, 2025 delivery, regardless has more ever been allocated to a non-NATO country ?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
Wow, 2025 delivery, regardless has more ever been allocated to a non-NATO country ?
With Germany not doing a damned thing, aside from being the enabler for Nordstream II and promising to supply the Ukrainian military but not delivering, who else is going to as much, England? They could never do this, regardless of how much they help.

Are other countries working with play money, the way the US does?
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
With Germany not doing a damned thing, aside from being the enabler for Nordstream II and promising to supply the Ukrainian military but not delivering, who else is going to as much, England? They could never do this, regardless of how much they help.

Are other countries working with play money, the way the US does?
A number of European countries are contributing more military aid than USA in terms of GDP, just saying, but for sure the bigger ones like Germany and France could contribute much more. Saying they do nothing is just wrong, though.

Do note that for smaller countries it's not that easy to give military aid (like weapons, munition) as they don't have so much of it to begin with. There is also humanitarian and civil support as well, like receiving millions of Ukrainian refugees. The sanctions and stance against Russia is biting Europe hard as well, and is also a cost.

And what do you mean by "play money"? Sounds like you think that USA should cut down on military aid.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
A number of European countries are contributing more military aid than USA in terms of GDP, just saying, but for sure the bigger ones like Germany and France could contribute much more. Saying they do nothing is just wrong, though.

Do note that for smaller countries it's not that easy to give military aid (like weapons, munition) as they don't have so much of it to begin with. There is also humanitarian and civil support as well, like receiving millions of Ukrainian refugees. The sanctions and stance against Russia is biting Europe hard as well, and is also a cost.

And what do you mean by "play money"? Sounds like you think that USA should cut down on military aid.
I know the smaller countries have a hard time sending large amounts of military and financial aid, but most European countries take care of their people better than the US- Congress is so tied up trying to make themselves look like they're doing great things, but this country has major problems that aren't being handled well- food insecurity, housing, education, mental health and public safety. If the education system and mental health were dealt with in a more substantial and effective way, the others would improve greatly. If Congress would put money where it's needed, rather than shoveling it to their pet projects, this country would be in much better condition. That's what concerns me, not helping other countries.

The US national debt has skyrocketed to more than $31 TRILLION dollars. It's supposed to be limited to a certain percentage of GDP and it's well beyond that- the rampant spending without Congress trying to operate with something remotely close to a balanced budget is what I was referring to. Still, the fact that the US is spending more than $68B has to count, especially since there's such a thin line between the US and Russia WRT what constitutes an act of war and what doesn't. Listen to and read Putin's comments- he usually says that anything coming from outside of Ukraine and the actions of Ukraine are acts of aggression- who invaded whom, anyway?

It will be good when Putin is gone, but it's hard to know how that will happen and who will suffer as he goes, WRT the additional carnage he will cause.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
I know the smaller countries have a hard time sending large amounts of military and financial aid, but most European countries take care of their people better than the US- Congress is so tied up trying to make themselves look like they're doing great things, but this country has major problems that aren't being handled well- food insecurity, housing, education, mental health and public safety. If the education system and mental health were dealt with in a more substantial and effective way, the others would improve greatly. If Congress would put money where it's needed, rather than shoveling it to their pet projects, this country would be in much better condition. That's what concerns me, not helping other countries. [italics added]
So you want to stop, or significantly reduce, aid to an ally that is attacked by an enemy of USA?

This type of propaganda is what Putin is spreading around in the Western world to undermine our support for Ukraine.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
So you want to stop, or significantly reduce, aid to an ally that is attacked by an enemy of USA?

This type of propaganda is what Putin is spreading around in the Western world to undermine our support for Ukraine.
You just looked at what I wrote, rather than reading. I never wrote anything like that.
 

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