highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
PENG said:
With all due respect, there may be just as many who got tired of "all amps sound different, and how obvious, or huge the differences are" speech.

To my ears, different loudspeakers sound way more different than different amps. That said, I must restrict my reference to loudspeakers in the $1,500 to $5,000 and amplifiers in the $1,500 to $3,500 neighborhood. So my priority is to pick out the speakers that I like first, then room acoustic, then the source (CD/DVD/Turntable), then may be upgrade my amp or add a tube pre-amp.

I agree that speakers play the largest role in sound & have the largest differences in sound between different pairs,my comment was based on what happened in this thread & just about all others like it,many negative comments from posters who fail to qualify their statements.

Ive owned quite a few peices of tube gear & i really prefer good solid state gear over tubes but this thread wasn't about personal preference or what peice of gear makes the largest impact on overall sound it was about differences in sound between the two different amp designs ,this is where my beef lies,threads like these become valueless for the new guys or the op when posters fail to stay on topic or fail to qualify comments.
 
TjMV3

TjMV3

Full Audioholic
ruadmaa said:
No I simply stated my experience of well over 30 years with tube equipment. If you like tubes, great.

30 years and you still don't know any better than to generalize everything?

What a waste of 30 years.
 
R

ruadmaa

Banned
You Have No Call To Be Rude

TjMV3 said:
30 years and you still don't know any better than to generalize everything?

What a waste of 30 years.
If you can't be more polite, maybe you should post somewhere else.
 
Z

zork52

Audiophyte
Stratman, thanks for the welcome. And HiFiHoney...............I looked at your Mac system, even Darth Vader would be impressed.

I used to have all Mac some years ago, that stuff looks beautiful all lit up in a dark room, I gotta say. I'm way too poor and financially irresponsible to start up with all that again though.

Having Klipschorns and other Klipsch speakers throughout my life, I'd have to give high marks to Mac for it's clean sound.

I am still intrigued by the Butler 5150 however, and want to give it a try. I hope the OP will consider Butler as well. They have a stellar reputation.
 
TjMV3

TjMV3

Full Audioholic
ruadmaa said:
If you can't be more polite, maybe you should post somewhere else.
Well lets see. The original guy (thread starter ) asked for suggestions for the best of tube amps. And you in all your wisdom and glory come in with this unobjective and obviously biased comment:

ruadmaa said:
Most people that grew up with tube amps in the 50's and 60's wouldn't give you a plug nickel for them. Tubes are nothing but trouble. If a little noise in your speakers bothers you don't buy tubes. Sooner or later tubes will either develop noise, short out or just plain wear out. I have several tube amps here at home and I can tell you they hiss when you turn up the volume. So, if you like distortion, malfunctioning equipment and other various problems buy tubes.
Tell me oh grand wizard of all things Tube Amped, how does your response address his original question?:rolleyes:

The truth is, the same can be said for a plethora solidstate amps out there on the market. Just about all of them have some kind of annoying buzz or mechanical noise and many of them malfunction or run into some kind of operational problem. Interesting you failed to mention that.

Interesting you failed to address the original question and point out that indeed there are some very fine tube and hybrid tube designs out there which compete with or completely destroy many of the soildstate offerings on the market. Instead, you decided to work with absolutes and paint all tube amps in a black or white manner, in one full sweep of your unobjective brush.

Don't tell me where I should post. There was nothing rude about my post.

You tried to use your "30 years of experience" as some kind of support to back your comments. But your comments are narrow-minded and show a lack of awareness and knowledge of some of the finer tubed designs on the market. You want to educate people on the world of tube amps? Then educate yourself on what's availabe, and cease with that narrow field of generalizations.

You attempted to turn the guy away from tube amps, as opposed to being honest and explaining to him that both topologies have their pros and cons. And that both topologies will produce some kind of hiss, buzz or mechanical noise in the tweeter.

The Butler amps and Van Alstine amps can be turned up rather loud and the smooth hiss is not at all noticable. Certainly no more than the buzz or mechanical noise of solidstate, when turned up.
 
A

Ampdog

Audioholic
Having been duly reminded of the original question, and sobered by the objective (as he is new here) observation by Zork 52 , let us look at the original request:

zumbo said:
I am getting interested in the tube amps because of so much praise. I was thinking of building a 2-channel system. I have no idea as to who the mid-fi contenders are. Some of this stuff is just toooooo expansive. Some of it has low power specs. While drooling over some Manley stuff, I saw Rob Babcock mention the Butler TDB 3150. Now that has good power, and a decent price. So, what is a good direction to start looking (brands).:confused:
Yep, perhaps we have not replied to Zumbo's original need ..... But then electroncs have sometimes been a strange subject, taking a circuitous (pun intended) route to simple truths.

Yes (Zork), we did not always apply ourselves to the initial simple request. I have only read the Butler piece now. :eek:

I cannot contribute regarding experience of umpteem brands of equipment. I can, however, from over half-a century of design experience and seeing circuits. So, somewhat later: The description of the Butler is a prize piece of promotional fodder. Mercifully that does not make it poor. Actually it is a hybrid, but only said at the end, as if not to put customers off initially (they forgot to put it into small print).

So, careful of promotion. Only relating (over-relating) the good points (and in all fairness, one cannot expect otherwise), that in itself will not inform you of the relative merits of technology. E.g., that 'greatset of distortion generators, the output transformer' with a pair of EL34 tubes will only generate some 0,8% of distortion for 25W before global feedback. But there is advantage in the 'impedance converter' operation of MOSFET output stages. On the other hand ..... One can obviously not give a complete breakdown of everything in a post such as this.

So my effort at summarising (together with my previous post):

1. It is easier to design a "clean" tube circuit than a "clean" transistor circuit. Tubes generate less obnoxious distortion than transistors. But good examples of both are available (so a lot of help from this point).

2. Tube amplifiers (especially high power) are quite more expensive than semiconductors.

3. Tubes do "wear out" with use, although over years.

4. Properly designed tube circuits and properly designed semiconductor ones should not present an audible difference in clarity. I have designed many of both. No fundamental reason for the subjective descriptions of "slow, fast, expanded sound stage, sweetness, airyness" and other observations in either topology. (Although I do not denigrade such as "lies", but they are personal. Some will experience them, others not.)

5. Hybrids: Advantages of both technologies but also some disadvantages of both. I have never desired to design one.

6. Holistic view: A lot more is dependant on loudspeakers and room acoustics and ears. Your taste.

But in summing up, I am also repeating. "Fingernails on chalk board" as Hifihoney said. Sorry (as long as amplifiers don't sound like that).
 
TjMV3

TjMV3

Full Audioholic
But you have to admit Butler Audio's promotional fodder is highly entertaining:D


Marketing material aside, the amps are fantastic. They sound wonderful and are built to a very high quality.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
zork52 said:
Hello,

I just joined this forum, but not sure I need to stay.......

I'm no expert on audio, but have spent 10's of thousands on HiFi gear, which makes me at the very least.........a consumer.

I have Klipshhorns and am just about ready to try out the Butler 5150 as my main amp for music and HT. Let me state I am 53 and have Tinnitus in one ear.

Although not an expert, I've been reading up on the Butler for some time now and believe it will do what I'm looking for and would be a good match for my Horns by removing some of the harshness away from my material. And yes, I'v heard all about the pros and cons of the Khorns.

I currently have a Mac7205 and have owned Mac, Adcom, Parasound, etc. The Mac is the cleanest by far, but the others had their place.

The guy who started this thread was asking about tube amps. If you didn't have anything good to say regarding them, it would have been better not to post anything. He wanted INFO on the best of tube amps. I surprised that a moderator would initiate the attack.

I have other audio questions, but would be reluctant now to post on here.

Good Day

Lighten up. And to the Butler owners, I haven't seen any negatives on the AVS forums or anywhere else about them. But it sure looks like you're the minority on here and God help you for it.
Hi zork,i never ran a butler home audio amp but i am running a butler audio car amplifier & they make good stuff,i ran klipschorns for years in a secondary system & believe it or not i had the best results running high power solid state amps,my 2 favotite amps that i used with the klipschorns were the Mcintosh mc500 (500 wpc) & the Krell ksa 150 (150 wpc class a).I ran quite a few tube amps with my khorns but i was always liked the sound best with the 2 solid state amps from mac & krell.

A cheap & effective way to tame the harsh highs in klipschorns is to take a tube of silicone caulking & squirt it all over the back side of the horn lenses being carefull to keep it off the driver,rub it in lightly with your finger & let it dry.

If you find that the caulking did not dampen the highs or changed the sound to something you dont like then all you have to do is peel off the dry caulk,it will come off very easy after its dry.
 
R

ruadmaa

Banned
Guess You're Right

TjMV3 said:
Well lets see. The original guy (thread starter ) asked for suggestions for the best of tube amps. And you in all your wisdom and glory come in with this unobjective and obviously biased comment:



Tell me oh grand wizard of all things Tube Amped, how does your response address his original question?:rolleyes:

The truth is, the same can be said for a plethora solidstate amps out there on the market. Just about all of them have some kind of annoying buzz or mechanical noise and many of them malfunction or run into some kind of operational problem. Interesting you failed to mention that.

Interesting you failed to address the original question and point out that indeed there are some very fine tube and hybrid tube designs out there which compete with or completely destroy many of the soildstate offerings on the market. Instead, you decided to work with absolutes and paint all tube amps in a black or white manner, in one full sweep of your unobjective brush.

Don't tell me where I should post. There was nothing rude about my post.

You tried to use your "30 years of experience" as some kind of support to back your comments. But your comments are narrow-minded and show a lack of awareness and knowledge of some of the finer tubed designs on the market. You want to educate people on the world of tube amps? Then educate yourself on what's availabe, and cease with that narrow field of generalizations.

You attempted to turn the guy away from tube amps, as opposed to being honest and explaining to him that both topologies have their pros and cons. And that both topologies will produce some kind of hiss, buzz or mechanical noise in the tweeter.

The Butler amps and Van Alstine amps can be turned up rather loud and the smooth hiss is not at all noticable. Certainly no more than the buzz or mechanical noise of solidstate, when turned up.
Buy whatever you see fit. If you like tubes buy them. I rescind anything I have written about tubes. They're great, buy all that you can. If obsolete technology turns you on so be it.
 
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