Tube Amp Questions?

slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Seems to me that the overwhelming opinions about tube amps is that their overpriced and inaccurate. Would you not be able to get the "sound" of a tube with a little eq? I know a lot of B&W speakers are known for that warm signature sound also.

Everything I've read about tube amps leads me to believe I wouldn't like them. SS seems like the way to go.
Yeah, and tubes tend to put out more heat. Just perfect for those Arizona summers and that 3 days of Arizona winter.
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Seems to me that the overwhelming opinions about tube amps is that their overpriced and inaccurate. Would you not be able to get the "sound" of a tube with a little eq? I know a lot of B&W speakers are known for that warm signature sound also.

Everything I've read about tube amps leads me to believe I wouldn't like them. SS seems like the way to go.
Yeah, I have to agree here. I do think that on certain types of music tubes are better. At least from what I have read. For example, with Jazz. Although I do like Jazz, it is NOT my main focus all things music. Therefore, I need to look into SS amps such as NAD and see what I come up with. Many people describe the NADS as being warm sounding. The same can be said about Marantz. To that end, I think that is where I will be putting a lot of my attention and money. :):):)


Cheers,

Phil
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Would you not be able to get the "sound" of a tube with a little eq?
Partially. Eq can address the linear distortion (frequency response aberrations), but tube amps also add non-linear distortion (harmonic distortion) and have that compressor-like behavior (increased harmonic distortion at higher output levels) as well, so a simple eq or tone controls won't quite get you all the way there. Some of the dsp guitar amps do a pretty respectable job of approximating the tube sound, fwiw, but many musicians still prefer actual tube amps for their instruments.
 
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Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Seems to me that the overwhelming opinions about tube amps is that their overpriced and inaccurate. Would you not be able to get the "sound" of a tube with a little eq? I know a lot of B&W speakers are known for that warm signature sound also.

Everything I've read about tube amps leads me to believe I wouldn't like them. SS seems like the way to go.
Nothing is overpriced. Things cost what they cost because of input and manufacturing realities combined with sales volume. Audio is no different. Either you choose to pay the price or you don't.

There have been many attempts to digitally process a "tube sound", most notably in the guitar amplifier market. They do not actually sound like tubes which is why tube amps for that market outsell transistor-based units, with and without amplifier modelling DSP, by large margins, despite higher cost.

The exception is bass amps, where high power is a benefit that suits the application over "tone". Yet onstage the guitarists' 30-watt vacuum amp is as loud, or louder, than the bassist's 200 watt solid state unit. Horses for courses.

Furthermore, most tube emulation circuits are distortion generators, as this is the character most sought after by musicians. Even then, they fail at the task, but that isn't the point. Proper HiFi tube amps are low distortion devices; if you can tell by listening for distortion that the amp is a tube or SS device, it is inadequate for HiFi use, period and you should seek more appropriate gear.

In a test recently held by Audio Precision, the company that makes the distortion analyzers used by all top manufacturers, presented music to an audience of HiFi enthusiasts where distortion was added to music signals. People were asked to hold up their hand when the distortion became offensive. For second harmonic distortion, all the hands were not up before the 2hd level reached 30%. For higher order distortions (eg 7th, 9th) everyone's hand was up at levels below 1%. Most tube amps for HiFi have THD below 0.5% and often much less, and have very low high order distortions.

I don't mean to suggest anything beyond the fact that we are sensitive to distortion levels higher than what each technology can achieve if properly designed.

If the job is a pre-amplifier stage, tubes are completely competitive with distortions below 0.05% and typically capable of handling much higher overloads long after the transistor unit has swung into full clipping with THD approaching 100%. There is a reason why you probably cannot buy an album that was not recorded without the use of tube mic preamps.

Vacuum State and Solid State devices operate very differently. The Brits call tubes "valves" and it is a more accurate description; transistors are switches. A tube amp generally has a lower parts count but requires high voltage and current devices. Back in the day when transistor amps were first being introduced as competitors to tube alternatives, they used output transformers just like tube amps, and cost more to buy.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Seems to me that the overwhelming opinions about tube amps is that their overpriced and inaccurate. Would you not be able to get the "sound" of a tube with a little eq? I know a lot of B&W speakers are known for that warm signature sound also.

Everything I've read about tube amps leads me to believe I wouldn't like them. SS seems like the way to go.
The tube amps are also "doomed" to be eventually destroyed by heat.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
The tube amps are also "doomed" to be eventually destroyed by heat.
Western Electric and virtually every telephone utility on earth used 300B-based amplifiers in the nation's and the world's telephone system, and replaced them with a switch to digital about 40 years ago. This network was used to transmit everything from phone calls to television broadcasts to military communications.

Some nations maintain a small network of vacuum tube based communication lines as strategic military networks to this day.

Two things ... they did not adopt analog transistor amps when they had the opportunity; they only changed when digital technology allowed many more channels to operate simultaneously over analog (via fibre optic cable). Yet they required the most stringent life and reliability standards to be met; more than the requirements for satellites.

The tube amps were used every 30 miles, including under the ocean, powered by a carrier voltage on the telephone lines. Some of the re-transmitters pulled had tubes manufactured in the 1930's, operating in difficult conditions 24/7 for 50 years without replacement and still in fully operating condition.

Power Tubes, as components, will last about as long as the capacitors in a solid state amp are expected to last. In the power supply, your caps are rated for 2,000 hours use at rated voltage and temperature (85degreesC), unless you own an amp that cost much more than average, maybe they fitted 3,000 hour units in those. Or maybe not. Small signal tubes are rated for 10,000 hours life. Military grade units have higher life.

Almost every home has a microwave oven. Absolutely every airport with radar uses vacuum tubes: transistors cannot handle the currents required. All commercial radio uses transmitting tubes, even if the broadcast signal is digital.

You should evaluate components on the usual sensible criteria: your needs, your budget, and Sound Quality. Old wives' tales are not likely to support an ideal choice. I do not believe one is inherently superior to the other; each component should be chosen on it's individual merits based on it's performance as an audio device in the application.
 
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wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
I have a Tube Amp hooked up to Totem Model one Signature for tweets , by amped with TFM 35 for mids . The combination is so clear . I have a Bryston 4b hooked up to Totem Mites on my computer ( alittle over board for my desktop ) , that combination still sounds great , but not as clear . I recently received , some speaker wire for the Tube amp and it made a big difference for the Model one speakers ( Monster speaker wire to Ecossec Cables speaker wire ) . I dont want to start a fight here ( hehe ) . I was never a believer in speaker wire and before that Tube amps , But until you try a Tube amp yourself , you will never know the difference .
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I ordered the monoprice 50w tube/hybrid amp. It's about the cost of an auto insurance payment. It has to have more value than that, especially considering I have never had an accident or ticket in nearly 40 years of driving.

I expect it to be a gimmick of sorts. I can always gift it to someone as a rather unique gift. I know I'd be stoked to get something like this as a raffle win, or something trivial like that.

Actually, it was this thread in part, and not seeing anyone stepping forward as the guinea pig. So, I intend to put this to rest, good or bad, and perhaps further cement that notion of there being no such thing as a bargain. But this day in age, it's hard to tell with things like audio and the speakers actually being the "speak all" when it comes right down to it. I have high sensitivity/low sensitivity speakers large and small, and low powered FR drivers to try this out with and this tube gimmick has a pre-out so I can hook up a sub to it as well

I was rather surprised by that little chip amp I bought from PE. There is no way an amp that costs $29 should sound like that. I had hooked it up to my big JBL's and the pairing just looked so odd. I should have at least moved the PC closer to at least give some kind of presence of electronic bulk, or heft. Anyhow, it made me laugh that it worked as well as it did.

I don't give a rat's ass about tubes. My uncle though, who initially exposed me to actual hi-fi, his equipment mostly being from the golden age of, would probably be tickled by this little novelty, especially if it works at all. Of course he'd also likely curse about the import trash of it all. At any rate, this should be fun.

I'm up early for work today since we only have a half day going into the holiday weekend. I intend to get my half over with early for full holiday effect. I intend to use this weekend to try and finally get those Continuums finished. The weather has been sucking for outdoor sanding work.
 
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M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
The little that I heard on the NAD integrated amps, I really liked it! Personally, I wouldn't describe it as a warm sound. I see a lot of people also say Marantz has a warm sound.

Dunno, a warm sounding SS amp seems fishy to me all around, unless the designer did something to get that response.
I have an Adcom GFA 5500, 2 channel amp that I would describe as "warm" sounding. It was often hard to tell if it was the amp, the speakers or my room, though. My cousin now has that amp (loaned, more like given, since I don't need it) for his vinyl fancy. He had it gone through, new caps etc. and the person who did the work said it was designed to more of a vintage sound via FETs of some sort, IIRC.

I did really like that amp though and it's likely the scourge of the audiophile purity realm for some reason or another. He loves that amp and keeps it covered when not in use and it looks better than when I loaned it to him.
 
Doge

Doge

Junior Audioholic
I'm kinda new hear and new back into audio. I am not that sensitive to price, but certainly didn't want to throw money way without getting some emotional benefit at least. I wanted an audio system for my work PC. I bought the Monoprice pure tube amp because - it was <$400 and I never had a tube (except I think I did as a 2-7 year old). I have had several SS amps that cost more, but always thought the $2K amp price was just silly. Esp since I need so few watts (speakers on desk). I never remember being surprised by sound other than my first turntable in 1980. This amp sounded good to me (a guy in late 50s), and maybe it was just something I recognized from that tube amp y parents played early 60s that I went to sleep with. It just sounded better - to me. I went into the Magnolia (Best Buy) store and listened to a bunch of stuff. I heard good stuff, but there was no emotion from them. So I ordered a Cary CAD-300SEI. There were some repair issues I am dealing with, but it was rich in a way others are not. My hearing range is not what it was, maybe I can't hear the differences. But the feel - and the look (also feel) of a tube amp is hard to beat.

I see the same in photos, and paintings that do not match what I see with my eyes as far as fidelity. But if the colors/(post processing) are right they bring out a feeling that the real thing does not. I think it is the same, for me at least with certain equipment. I want to feel it in a certain way, that may not be an accurate production. The tube amp/s do that in a way no SS I have heard in the same price range can.
 
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killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Quite a few questions packed in there...


Many reasons why they're more expensive, and most of them have to do with audiophile marketing nonsense than anything else. The most expensive part of a tube amp is the iron (power and output transformers). Some rare NOS tubes that the audionut community has fetishized has created demand and driven their prices to astronomically ridiculous levels. However you slice it, tubes will never again come close to the watt/$ that ss will bring, or compete with ss when it comes to accurate reproduction.

'Warmer' is typically a reference to frequency response aberrations. Tube amplifiers generally have high output impedance, which means that there will be frequency aberrations corresponding to the load impedance. The effect is subtle but can add warmth, and often a bit of twinkle up at higher frequencies, corresponding to rises in the speaker's impedance.
But wait, there's more! Tube amps are also often characterized by relatively high amounts of low order harmonic distortion, which has ramifications for tonal coloration. Second order harmonics are exactly an octave above the fundamental, thus consonant, and largely masked, but they can add fullness. Third order harmonics on their own tend to lend a dissonant, covered, nasal sound. Strong second combined with a strong third, as many tube amps produce, tends to open up the covered effect and give a more brassy, open horn like character.
And there's even more! When overdriven, tube amps don't hard clip like a transistor amp, and can be run into the red before becoming audibly objectionable.

Can't in good conscience recommend any commercial tube amps. They're all generally a rip off. I recommend DIY if you're down for it, or a used amp of known pedigree that will hold it's value so you can sell it for what you paid, after you've scratched the tube itch.

It would equal 100 watts. Watts are watts. And that would be a large and expensive tube amp!
I think your question does go back to what I said about being able to run tube amps into overdrive conditions, so let's look closer at that. As the amp is pushed to and past it's limits, more than just the second or third harmonic get excited. Provided the amp is not pushed so far into over-driven conditions to excite harmonics higher than the tenth or so, and it only occurs on transients, that higher order harmonic content is perceived as added loudness. Meanwhile, the amp's actual peak power is no longer increasing, but average levels are. Add all that up and it's basically acting like a compressor. That's where the tube-watts-are-more-powerful myth comes from. And grossly clipped tube amps still sound terrible (or wonderful, if you're using them for your guitar tone).

They may or may not have "lots of headroom" depending on the overall design, and each tube has limits to what it can do in a particular circuit. For example, a 300B in a single ended type circuit will maybe squeeze out 7 watts or so, where a pair of such tubes in a pp amp could achieve considerably more. How robust or saggy the supplies are comes into play as well. And again, it could also concern that ear-friendly clipping/compression behavior giving the impression of more headroom.


Yes. Audible differences typically correspond to how badly behaved the amp in question is. SET amps, for example, are really badly behaved in pretty much all metrics, and it takes something that bad to produce audible differences. I'm hard pressed to differentiate better performing tube amps from unclipped ss power. Limited experience and all the qualifiers, of course, but I have subjected myself to carefully level matched comparisons.
The reality is that tube amps are inferior to ss for music reproduction.

Don't break the bank. Don't even break out your wallet, keep it in your pocket.
I just remembered how much I enjoyed this post.
 
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