Tube Amp Questions?

[speakerman39]

A while back I posted a thread asking at to why SS amps are so expensive. Found out that the power supply has a lot to do with the over all costs. However, why then are tube amps even more expensive? Could it be that the bulbs are also expensive beyond the expense of power supplies?

Also, why are tube amps considered to be more warmer sounding than SS amps? I admit I have been fascinated with tube amps ever since entering this hobby many years ago. Just have no experience with them. Not to mention, tube amps are downright expensive. Are there any more affordable tube amps that any of you can recommend?

Lastly, please explain the power differences b/c it seems tube amps get by w/less power specs wise. In other words, SS amps rates at 100 w RMS 20-20K at 8 ohms would equal what in tube amp watts? Why are they (tube amps) rated with less power, but still have lots of headroom? Do the bulbs make a difference in said headroom? Thanks!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Has anyone here ever had a chance to directly as in A/B a SS amp with a tube amp? If so, were the differences that noticeable? Like a night and day difference or just slight? Doing my best to learn here w/o breaking the bank. Guidance is needed. Help please!


Phil

 

[ski2xblack]

Quite a few questions packed in there...

However, why then are tube amps even more expensive? Could it be that the bulbs are also expensive beyond the expense of power supplies?

Many reasons why they're more expensive, and most of them have to do with audiophile marketing nonsense than anything else. The most expensive part of a tube amp is the iron (power and output transformers). Some rare NOS tubes that the audionut community has fetishized has created demand and driven their prices to astronomically ridiculous levels. However you slice it, tubes will never again come close to the watt/$ that ss will bring, or compete with ss when it comes to accurate reproduction.

Also, why are tube amps considered to be more warmer sounding than SS amps?

'Warmer' is typically a reference to frequency response aberrations. Tube amplifiers generally have high output impedance, which means that there will be frequency aberrations corresponding to the load impedance. The effect is subtle but can add warmth, and often a bit of twinkle up at higher frequencies, corresponding to rises in the speaker's impedance.
But wait, there's more! Tube amps are also often characterized by relatively high amounts of low order harmonic distortion, which has ramifications for tonal coloration. Second order harmonics are exactly an octave above the fundamental, thus consonant, and largely masked, but they can add fullness. Third order harmonics on their own tend to lend a dissonant, covered, nasal sound. Strong second combined with a strong third, as many tube amps produce, tends to open up the covered effect and give a more brassy, open horn like character.
And there's even more! When overdriven, tube amps don't hard clip like a transistor amp, and can be run into the red before becoming audibly objectionable.

Are there any more affordable tube amps that any of you can recommend?

Can't in good conscience recommend any commercial tube amps. They're all generally a rip off. I recommend DIY if you're down for it, or a used amp of known pedigree that will hold it's value so you can sell it for what you paid, after you've scratched the tube itch.

please explain the power differences b/c it seems tube amps get by w/less power specs wise. In other words, SS amps rates at 100 w RMS 20-20K at 8 ohms would equal what in tube amp watts?

It would equal 100 watts. Watts are watts. And that would be a large and expensive tube amp!
I think your question does go back to what I said about being able to run tube amps into overdrive conditions, so let's look closer at that. As the amp is pushed to and past it's limits, more than just the second or third harmonic get excited. Provided the amp is not pushed so far into over-driven conditions to excite harmonics higher than the tenth or so, and it only occurs on transients, that higher order harmonic content is perceived as added loudness. Meanwhile, the amp's actual peak power is no longer increasing, but average levels are. Add all that up and it's basically acting like a compressor. That's where the tube-watts-are-more-powerful myth comes from. And grossly clipped tube amps still sound terrible (or wonderful, if you're using them for your guitar tone).

Why are they (tube amps) rated with less power, but still have lots of headroom? Do the bulbs make a difference in said headroom?

They may or may not have "lots of headroom" depending on the overall design, and each tube has limits to what it can do in a particular circuit. For example, a 300B in a single ended type circuit will maybe squeeze out 7 watts or so, where a pair of such tubes in a pp amp could achieve considerably more. How robust or saggy the supplies are comes into play as well. And again, it could also concern that ear-friendly clipping/compression behavior giving the impression of more headroom.

Has anyone here ever had a chance to directly as in A/B a SS amp with a tube amp? If so, were the differences that noticeable? Like a night and day difference or just slight?

Yes. Audible differences typically correspond to how badly behaved the amp in question is. SET amps, for example, are really badly behaved in pretty much all metrics, and it takes something that bad to produce audible differences. I'm hard pressed to differentiate better performing tube amps from unclipped ss power. Limited experience and all the qualifiers, of course, but I have subjected myself to carefully level matched comparisons.
The reality is that tube amps are inferior to ss for music reproduction.

Doing my best to learn here w/o breaking the bank.

Don't break the bank. Don't even break out your wallet, keep it in your pocket.

 

[killdozzer]

@ski2xblack

A truly excellent post! I'm very grateful for this. It's a pity I can't rate it more than once.

I asked few of these questions while I was looking for an amp, but I usually ask too many questions so I don't always get every each one of them answered.

Thanks!
kd

 

[slipperybidness]

A while back I posted a thread asking at to why SS amps are so expensive. Found out that the power supply has a lot to do with the over all costs. However, why then are tube amps even more expensive? Could it be that the bulbs are also expensive beyond the expense of power supplies?

Also, why are tube amps considered to be more warmer sounding than SS amps? I admit I have been fascinated with tube amps ever since entering this hobby many years ago. Just have no experience with them. Not to mention, tube amps are downright expensive. Are there any more affordable tube amps that any of you can recommend?

Lastly, please explain the power differences b/c it seems tube amps get by w/less power specs wise. In other words, SS amps rates at 100 w RMS 20-20K at 8 ohms would equal what in tube amp watts? Why are they (tube amps) rated with less power, but still have lots of headroom? Do the bulbs make a difference in said headroom? Thanks!


Cheers,

Phil

Post #3 from ski nailed the correct answers here.

I will add a little.

Transformers are expensive. SS amps (should) have 1 transformer in the power supply, while a tube amp has 3 transformers--1 in the PS and 1 for each output channel. That $ adds up quickly.

Tubes can be a bit pricey, but they don't have to be. But, understand that tubes are true CONSUMABLE items--i.e. they degrade and WILL need to be replaced eventually.

I agree with Ski--If you really want a tube amp, it is a very poor value proposition for a commercial design--go DIY. I guess if I had to choose a commercial tube amp, I would likely go for the Jolida.

There is no power difference. Watts are watts, tube amps are low power as compared to SS designs. Yes, the tubes can make a difference in the overall response of the amp, and the response changes as the tubes age, and you will like have to re-bias the tubes as they age too.

Yes, the differences A/B of tubes/SS can be night and day. My Dynaco ST-70 just really does not do justice to my Philharmonitors. When the Phils are driven by my Parasound 1206, audio bliss returns. On the other hand, I have found that my Dynaco ST-70 pairs up quite nicely with my DT SM350, and indeed it has a nice warm sound with lots of depth on those speakers.

 

[speakerman39]

Quite a few questions packed in there...


Many reasons why they're more expensive, and most of them have to do with audiophile marketing nonsense than anything else. The most expensive part of a tube amp is the iron (power and output transformers). Some rare NOS tubes that the audionut community has fetishized has created demand and driven their prices to astronomically ridiculous levels. However you slice it, tubes will never again come close to the watt/$ that ss will bring, or compete with ss when it comes to accurate reproduction.

'Warmer' is typically a reference to frequency response aberrations. Tube amplifiers generally have high output impedance, which means that there will be frequency aberrations corresponding to the load impedance. The effect is subtle but can add warmth, and often a bit of twinkle up at higher frequencies, corresponding to rises in the speaker's impedance.
But wait, there's more! Tube amps are also often characterized by relatively high amounts of low order harmonic distortion, which has ramifications for tonal coloration. Second order harmonics are exactly an octave above the fundamental, thus consonant, and largely masked, but they can add fullness. Third order harmonics on their own tend to lend a dissonant, covered, nasal sound. Strong second combined with a strong third, as many tube amps produce, tends to open up the covered effect and give a more brassy, open horn like character.
And there's even more! When overdriven, tube amps don't hard clip like a transistor amp, and can be run into the red before becoming audibly objectionable.

Can't in good conscience recommend any commercial tube amps. They're all generally a rip off. I recommend DIY if you're down for it, or a used amp of known pedigree that will hold it's value so you can sell it for what you paid, after you've scratched the tube itch.

It would equal 100 watts. Watts are watts. And that would be a large and expensive tube amp!
I think your question does go back to what I said about being able to run tube amps into overdrive conditions, so let's look closer at that. As the amp is pushed to and past it's limits, more than just the second or third harmonic get excited. Provided the amp is not pushed so far into over-driven conditions to excite harmonics higher than the tenth or so, and it only occurs on transients, that higher order harmonic content is perceived as added loudness. Meanwhile, the amp's actual peak power is no longer increasing, but average levels are. Add all that up and it's basically acting like a compressor. That's where the tube-watts-are-more-powerful myth comes from. And grossly clipped tube amps still sound terrible (or wonderful, if you're using them for your guitar tone).

They may or may not have "lots of headroom" depending on the overall design, and each tube has limits to what it can do in a particular circuit. For example, a 300B in a single ended type circuit will maybe squeeze out 7 watts or so, where a pair of such tubes in a pp amp could achieve considerably more. How robust or saggy the supplies are comes into play as well. And again, it could also concern that ear-friendly clipping/compression behavior giving the impression of more headroom.


Yes. Audible differences typically correspond to how badly behaved the amp in question is. SET amps, for example, are really badly behaved in pretty much all metrics, and it takes something that bad to produce audible differences. I'm hard pressed to differentiate better performing tube amps from unclipped ss power. Limited experience and all the qualifiers, of course, but I have subjected myself to carefully level matched comparisons.
The reality is that tube amps are inferior to ss for music reproduction.

Don't break the bank. Don't even break out your wallet, keep it in your pocket.

Wow! Very informative. Thanks for taking the time to do this. Trust me when I say, I will certainly return this post more than once. Most I understand and some not so sure. It is most appreciated!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Post #3 from ski nailed the correct answers here.

I will add a little.

Transformers are expensive. SS amps (should) have 1 transformer in the power supply, while a tube amp has 3 transformers--1 in the PS and 1 for each output channel. That $ adds up quickly.

Tubes can be a bit pricey, but they don't have to be. But, understand that tubes are true CONSUMABLE items--i.e. they degrade and WILL need to be replaced eventually.

I agree with Ski--If you really want a tube amp, it is a very poor value proposition for a commercial design--go DIY. I guess if I had to choose a commercial tube amp, I would likely go for the Jolida.

There is no power difference. Watts are watts, tube amps are low power as compared to SS designs. Yes, the tubes can make a difference in the overall response of the amp, and the response changes as the tubes age, and you will like have to re-bias the tubes as they age too.

Yes, the differences A/B of tubes/SS can be night and day. My Dynaco ST-70 just really does not do justice to my Philharmonitors. When the Phils are driven by my Parasound 1206, audio bliss returns. On the other hand, I have found that my Dynaco ST-70 pairs up quite nicely with my DT SM350, and indeed it has a nice warm sound with lots of depth on those speakers.

Also want to thank you as well. I am not much of a DIY type of guy. Jolida is what Ty albeit Tyler Acoustics always uses to demo his speakers. Most of which are simply out of my price range. Do you know of a SS amp that has a warm sounding signature and is more affordable than say a tube? If so, please enlighten me. Lastly, why do so many 2-Channel guys prefer a warm sounding amp, as well as, warmer sounding speakers? Is that the best way to go as far as matching components go? Sorry for so many questions, but trying to learn here. Thanks!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[slipperybidness]

Also want to thank you as well. I am not much of a DIY type of guy. Jolida is what Ty albeit Tyler Acoustics always uses to demo his speakers. Most of which are simply out of my price range. Do you know of a SS amp that has a warm sounding signature and is more affordable than say a tube? If so, please enlighten me. Lastly, why do so many 2-Channel guys prefer a warm sounding amp, as well as, warmer sounding speakers? Is that the best way to go as far as matching components go? Sorry for so many questions, but trying to learn here. Thanks!


Cheers,

Phil

In general, if a SS amp has a warm signature, then move along! The job of an amp is to take an input signal of small amplitude and output a signal that is identical to the input except at a larger magnitude. When you start talking about using an amp for a "warm sound", then you are saying that the amp alters the input signal in some way, and that is not the desirable goal for the amp piece of the signal chain. If you want to alter the input signal in some manner, then that is the goal of a processor or an equalizer, not the amp.

Sure, a "warm amp" may sound "nice" with some sub-set of speakers. But, again, the amp's job is accurate reproduction, not "sounding nice". A perfect amp should provide a perfect signal reproduction for any speaker load connected at the outputs.

If someone prefers a "warm" sound, then what they are really saying is that they prefer a "colored" sound. This is a preference and subjective. I (and most AH members) prefer an "accurate" sound reproduction.

Now, I understand the preference, like I mentioned, my tube amp does sound "very nice" with my DT SM350 speakers. Especially for Jazz music, I absolutely love the sound. But, there is no doubt in my mind that my SS amps are superior in every possible way as compared to tubes, and for that matter my Phils are superior to the DT in every possible way.

 

[slipperybidness]

@speakerman39
Have you ever had much opportunity to listen to a tube amp? And, the same tube amp on different speakers?

Plus, understand that many tube amps will have different output taps to try to get better impedance matching b/w the amp and the speakers. For a SS amp, the output impedance is so low that this is not needed (low output impedance is extremely desirable).

If you have not, then yeah, find a shop that will let you hear some tubes for as long as you want. They are certainly worth a listen, and it is certainly worth understanding the past and exactly why tubes are inferior.

 

[speakerman39]

In general, if a SS amp has a warm signature, then move along! The job of an amp is to take an input signal of small amplitude and output a signal that is identical to the input except at a larger magnitude. When you start talking about using an amp for a "warm sound", then you are saying that the amp alters the input signal in some way, and that is not the desirable goal for the amp piece of the signal chain. If you want to alter the input signal in some manner, then that is the goal of a processor or an equalizer, not the amp.

Sure, a "warm amp" may sound "nice" with some sub-set of speakers. But, again, the amp's job is accurate reproduction, not "sounding nice". A perfect amp should provide a perfect signal reproduction for any speaker load connected at the outputs.

If someone prefers a "warm" sound, then what they are really saying is that they prefer a "colored" sound. This is a preference and subjective. I (and most AH members) prefer an "accurate" sound reproduction.

Now, I understand the preference, like I mentioned, my tube amp does sound "very nice" with my DT SM350 speakers. Especially for Jazz music, I absolutely love the sound. But, there is no doubt in my mind that my SS amps are superior in every possible way as compared to tubes, and for that matter my Phils are superior to the DT in every possible way.

The reason I asked about warmer sounding SS amps is that many describe the NADS that way. I have never owned a NAD product of any kind. I gather that NAD is also very conservative with their respective power ratings.

Not against accurate sound reproduction at all. But, I just prefer the warmer sound signature. I am looking for electronics that is going to move me in that direction. Of course, I can only afford so much. Hence, said electronics do not have to be tube. Just fascinated with tubes. Not afraid of SS electronics at all. Looking for a deal of some sorts. Thanks!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[slipperybidness]

The reason I asked about warmer sounding SS amps is that many describe the NADS that way. I have never owned a NAD product of any kind. I gather that NAD is also very conservative with their respective power ratings.

Not against accurate sound reproduction at all. But, I just prefer the warmer sound signature. I am looking for electronics that is going to move me in that direction. Of course, I can only afford so much. Hence, said electronics do not have to be tube. Just fascinated with tubes. Not afraid of SS electronics at all. Looking for a deal of some sorts. Thanks!


Cheers,

Phil

The little that I heard on the NAD integrated amps, I really liked it! Personally, I wouldn't describe it as a warm sound. I see a lot of people also say Marantz has a warm sound.

Dunno, a warm sounding SS amp seems fishy to me all around, unless the designer did something to get that response.

I should also mention--Tube amps typically start rolling off the freq response on both the high and low freqs, that can also contribute to a warmer sound.

If I wanted to start jacking with my sound to see if I could improve it or make it seem warmer, then I would start by playing with those silly DSP modes that are included on most modern AVRs. Typically the DSP modes may have labels like "Dance, Jazz, 7 ch stereo, etc" that you would scroll through. If you have an AVR with DSP, then start scrolling through those to see if you get a sound that you prefer vs pure direct mode.

That is free and may get exactly what you are looking for. I would not be trying to achieve that goal with an amp "upgrade"

 

[speakerman39]

@speakerman39
Have you ever had much opportunity to listen to a tube amp? And, the same tube amp on different speakers?

Plus, understand that many tube amps will have different output taps to try to get better impedance matching b/w the amp and the speakers. For a SS amp, the output impedance is so low that this is not needed (low output impedance is extremely desirable).

If you have not, then yeah, find a shop that will let you hear some tubes for as long as you want. They are certainly worth a listen, and it is certainly worth understanding the past and exactly why tubes are inferior.

The only tubes that I have listened to were at Tyler Acoustics as Ty uses Jolida tube amps to demo his speakers. I was just blown away with the sound. Of course, his speakers are very high end using some of the best drivers made. The last time I spoke with Ty I asking him is he had any older used tubes he might want to sell. Unfortunately, he didn't. Down the road I want to own a Jolida tube or a NAD SS. Right now, my Denon X3300 will have to suffice. Also, plan to use my Cambridge SR 20 to power my Diamond 220's that I am using for my desktop.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

The little that I heard on the NAD integrated amps, I really liked it! Personally, I wouldn't describe it as a warm sound. I see a lot of people also say Marantz has a warm sound.

Dunno, a warm sounding SS amp seems fishy to me all around, unless the designer did something to get that response.

I should also mention--Tube amps typically start rolling off the freq response on both the high and low freqs, that can also contribute to a warmer sound.

If I wanted to start jacking with my sound to see if I could improve it or make it seem warmer, then I would start by playing with those silly DSP modes that are included on most modern AVRs. Typically the DSP modes may have labels like "Dance, Jazz, 7 ch stereo, etc" that you would scroll through. If you have an AVR with DSP, then start scrolling through those to see if you get a sound that you prefer vs pure direct mode.

That is free and may get exactly what you are looking for. I would not be trying to achieve that goal with an amp "upgrade"

Have never heard a NAD SS amp. Have read that many say Marantz has a warmer sound signature. Might make me a trip to Nashville or Louisville to see what I could go demo. St. Louis is within driving distance as is Indianapolis. Cincinnati may be doable as well. Surely, there would be some B&M shops that can offer me some demos. Will look into it and see what I can find. Nashville/Louisville would be much more convenient.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[slipperybidness]

Have never heard a NAD SS amp. Have read that many say Marantz has a warmer sound signature. Might make me a trip to Nashville or Louisville to see what I could go demo. St. Louis is within driving distance as is Indianapolis. Cincinnati may be doable as well. Surely, there would be some B&M shops that can offer me some demos. Will look into it and see what I can find. Nashville/Louisville would be much more convenient.


Cheers,

Phil

OK, here are a few other ideas that would get you a taste of tubes on the (relatively) cheap.

1) I know that you already said that you are not really up to DIY. But, I at least feel like I should throw this out there for you to see.
http://bottlehead.com/product/quickie-1-1-battery-powered-directly-heated-tube-preamplifier-kit/

This is almost certainly gonna be the cheapest way for you to get a taste for what tubes bring to the table. It is a pretty simple build, the instructions are good, and it is cheap. It is a DIY tube pre-amp from from Bottlehead. I built the version 1 a few years ago and I still have it, though I don't use it regularly. It is a pre-amp, not an amp, but it will definitely give you a taste for tubes and likely add a little warmth if used as a pre-amp to feed the SS amp.

2) There are a few options from Monoprice. I believe that most or all of these will be hybrid designs with tube pre-amp stage and SS (chip amp, not discrete) output stages. Honestly, these design decisions make a lot of sense.
https://www.monoprice.com/search/index?keyword=tube+amp

This would likely be my choice from that list, but there are cheaper options
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=16153

3) A tube headphone amp. Gets you the taste of tubes, but likely much cheaper. But, I personally have no experience with tube headphone amps, some other AH member will have to educate us both on that topic.

 

[speakerman39]

OK, here are a few other ideas that would get you a taste of tubes on the (relatively) cheap.

1) I know that you already said that you are not really up to DIY. But, I at least feel like I should throw this out there for you to see.
http://bottlehead.com/product/quickie-1-1-battery-powered-directly-heated-tube-preamplifier-kit/

This is almost certainly gonna be the cheapest way for you to get a taste for what tubes bring to the table. It is a pretty simple build, the instructions are good, and it is cheap. It is a DIY tube pre-amp from from Bottlehead. I built the version 1 a few years ago and I still have it, though I don't use it regularly. It is a pre-amp, not an amp, but it will definitely give you a taste for tubes and likely add a little warmth if used as a pre-amp to feed the SS amp.

2) There are a few options from Monoprice. I believe that most or all of these will be hybrid designs with tube pre-amp stage and SS (chip amp, not discrete) output stages. Honestly, these design decisions make a lot of sense.
https://www.monoprice.com/search/index?keyword=tube+amp

This would likely be my choice from that list, but there are cheaper options
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=16153

3) A tube headphone amp. Gets you the taste of tubes, but likely much cheaper. But, I personally have no experience with tube headphone amps, some other AH member will have to educate us both on that topic.

A while back I was looking at a few of the Monoprice offerings and posted about it. Seems like they are not too popular around this neck of the woods so to speak. However, thanks for the links as I will look into it more. Your help is really appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to help.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[Tankman]

Quite a few questions packed in there...


Many reasons why they're more expensive, and most of them have to do with audiophile marketing nonsense than anything else. The most expensive part of a tube amp is the iron (power and output transformers). Some rare NOS tubes that the audionut community has fetishized has created demand and driven their prices to astronomically ridiculous levels. However you slice it, tubes will never again come close to the watt/$ that ss will bring, or compete with ss when it comes to accurate reproduction.

'Warmer' is typically a reference to frequency response aberrations. Tube amplifiers generally have high output impedance, which means that there will be frequency aberrations corresponding to the load impedance. The effect is subtle but can add warmth, and often a bit of twinkle up at higher frequencies, corresponding to rises in the speaker's impedance.
But wait, there's more! Tube amps are also often characterized by relatively high amounts of low order harmonic distortion, which has ramifications for tonal coloration. Second order harmonics are exactly an octave above the fundamental, thus consonant, and largely masked, but they can add fullness. Third order harmonics on their own tend to lend a dissonant, covered, nasal sound. Strong second combined with a strong third, as many tube amps produce, tends to open up the covered effect and give a more brassy, open horn like character.
And there's even more! When overdriven, tube amps don't hard clip like a transistor amp, and can be run into the red before becoming audibly objectionable.

Can't in good conscience recommend any commercial tube amps. They're all generally a rip off. I recommend DIY if you're down for it, or a used amp of known pedigree that will hold it's value so you can sell it for what you paid, after you've scratched the tube itch.

It would equal 100 watts. Watts are watts. And that would be a large and expensive tube amp!
I think your question does go back to what I said about being able to run tube amps into overdrive conditions, so let's look closer at that. As the amp is pushed to and past it's limits, more than just the second or third harmonic get excited. Provided the amp is not pushed so far into over-driven conditions to excite harmonics higher than the tenth or so, and it only occurs on transients, that higher order harmonic content is perceived as added loudness. Meanwhile, the amp's actual peak power is no longer increasing, but average levels are. Add all that up and it's basically acting like a compressor. That's where the tube-watts-are-more-powerful myth comes from. And grossly clipped tube amps still sound terrible (or wonderful, if you're using them for your guitar tone).

They may or may not have "lots of headroom" depending on the overall design, and each tube has limits to what it can do in a particular circuit. For example, a 300B in a single ended type circuit will maybe squeeze out 7 watts or so, where a pair of such tubes in a pp amp could achieve considerably more. How robust or saggy the supplies are comes into play as well. And again, it could also concern that ear-friendly clipping/compression behavior giving the impression of more headroom.


Yes. Audible differences typically correspond to how badly behaved the amp in question is. SET amps, for example, are really badly behaved in pretty much all metrics, and it takes something that bad to produce audible differences. I'm hard pressed to differentiate better performing tube amps from unclipped ss power. Limited experience and all the qualifiers, of course, but I have subjected myself to carefully level matched comparisons.
The reality is that tube amps are inferior to ss for music reproduction.

Don't break the bank. Don't even break out your wallet, keep it in your pocket.

Him speak of Truth, without forked tongue. Tube amp not good as solid-state amp keep money in pocket. Spend money on better speaker with better woofers..But He who likes the red glow of tube amp that was given to 3 eyes says most fun to smoke peace pipe in TP..lol, at night when Sun goes down. Enjoy hobby like you want. Chief Running Bear.lo.(●●),Never trust a man who doesn't like music I always say.

Mike

 

[Johnny2Bad]

This one is quite easy. The cost of transformers, which carry the double whammy of bing both heavy and expensive, dominate the BoM of vacuum state devices.

With regard to power differences from Solid State, there are two factors at work as well. One, a SS device has a very abrupt distortion knee, which means output must be below the ultimate steady state and transient state power limits.

Vacuum state power curves are smoother (tubes are linear devices, transistors are not) and more gradual. Also there is considerable evidence that vacuum state amplifers are capable of, in some cases, three or four times their steady-state power without exceeding that steady-state distortion under transient conditions..

There is no rule of thumb to convert power ratings from one technology to the other. Suffice to say that tube amps are capable of more power than the steady state rating implies, while a solid state amplifier may be limited to a small multiple, often less than 2x of it's steady state power rating even under transient conditions.

There is also a difference in how a transformer-coupled output stage differs from a transformerless output stage deal with load impedances.

Taken together, they are very different technologies in so many ways that the best option is to simply try one or the other and decide if it's power is sufficient for the listening levels you require.

Most listeners most of the time use less than 1 watt continuous power at their normal listening level. High power is rarely undesirable but may often be unnecessary. It is well proven that we can hear below the noise level, but we cannot measure below the noise level, so the quality of power at these low power outputs is essentially unknown and unknowable. Thus you must listen to discover which technology you prefer.

 

[speakerman39]

This one is quite easy. The cost of transformers, which carry the double whammy of bing both heavy and expensive, dominate the BoM of vacuum state devices.

With regard to power differences from Solid State, there are two factors at work as well. One, a SS device has a very abrupt distortion knee, which means output must be below the ultimate steady state and transient state power limits.

Vacuum state power curves are smoother (tubes are linear devices, transistors are not) and more gradual. Also there is considerable evidence that vacuum state amplifers are capable of, in some cases, three or four times their steady-state power without exceeding that steady-state distortion under transient conditions..

There is no rule of thumb to convert power ratings from one technology to the other. Suffice to say that tube amps are capable of more power than the steady state rating implies, while a solid state amplifier may be limited to a small multiple, often less than 2x of it's steady state power rating even under transient conditions.

There is also a difference in how a transformer-coupled output stage differs from a transformerless output stage deal with load impedances.

Taken together, they are very different technologies in so many ways that the best option is to simply try one or the other and decide if it's power is sufficient for the listening levels you require.

Most listeners most of the time use less than 1 watt continuous power at their normal listening level. High power is rarely undesirable but may often be unnecessary. It is well proven that we can hear below the noise level, but we cannot measure below the noise level, so the quality of power at these low power outputs is essentially unknown and unknowable. Thus you must listen to discover which technology you prefer.

Thanks for the info Johnny. Appreciate you taking the time to type this up. It is very helpful.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[Pogre]

Seems to me that the overwhelming opinions about tube amps is that their overpriced and inaccurate. Would you not be able to get the "sound" of a tube with a little eq? I know a lot of B&W speakers are known for that warm signature sound also.

Everything I've read about tube amps leads me to believe I wouldn't like them. SS seems like the way to go.

 

[slipperybidness]

Thanks for the info Johnny. Appreciate you taking the time to type this up. It is very helpful.


Cheers,

Phil

You know, we often throw around the term "watts are watts" without actually qualifying or properly elaborating that statement. I believe that statement has been used at least twice on this thread.

So, I figured it would be good to qualify that reality of physics.

Watts = Joules per Second
Joules are the units or Work, so watts are simply stating a rate of work being done

The man Joule himself proved that "work is work" or more precisely that mechanical energy transfer is interchangeable with thermal energy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_equivalent_of_heat

These terms and concepts that we take for granted were revolutionary to the field at one point. "What kind of sorcery is this?"