TSC TST3 Speakers

[bandphan]

if you don't like them now, time isnt gonna change that. State a budget and allow others to give you items to demo, as that is the process of buying speakers...Listen to them and if you like them note it or keep them and move to the next. What speakers did you have before? What are your expectations and goals?

 

[ace0001a]

I'm in my mid 30's myself and trust me as I've listened to enough of the style of speaker the OP is talking about growing up. Sorry to say, but I don't see that as being "smooth" and is why I call it bland fidelity. That type of sound to me was fine in the 80's, but just doesn't wow me these days. I happen to like midrange clarity and having that is what I'd call smooth. I've listened to Definitive Technology BP10 towers before and I like their sound, albeit they can be a bit too bassy. I can see how too much mids and highs can get fatiguing to listen too, but again I also believe you can give yourself time to get used to something. Although no knock on the OP's age, I'm not sure being past 40 how easy that can be to get used to something different. I do think it's too bad that to old hifi stereo stores have gone the way of the dodo, but there should be still small specialty home audio places in every city that lets you listen to speakers. Mind you the obvious is that the speakers never sound the same at home as they do the showroom and so that's why I really like the concept of internet direct companies that let you audition the speakers exactly where you're going to use them. You can argue that's more of a hassle, but since sound fidelity is such a fickle thing from person to person that it only makes sense to be able to audition the speakers at home. I do think a speaker sounds better after you use it for a while. My existing set, I remember them being more harsh when I first got them and over time they smoothed out (either that or I got used to them). Personally, I really do think TSC has done a great job in putting out a high performance, high quality product at a very affordable price. I still say to use as much of your 30-day trial as you can and see if they smooth out for you. I did initially think that if they sounded like AM Radio that perhaps there's something wrong with their crossovers, but maybe that statement was simply the OP embelishing his description for being too midrange dominant for his tastes. Another thing is maybe the receiver has an effect on the sound more so than one might think. I know there's plenty of discussion about that. While I own and really like Denon receivers, I find that unless you've got one of the high end models that the sound seems to get "thinner" the lower model you go. I used to own a Denon AVR-4800 back in 2001 and that thing was a beast and had some really smooth sound. Later when I "upgraded" to a 3806, I noticed the sound being a hair thinner. Right now I have an AVR-3808ci and it has fantastic sound, but again thin when compared to what my old 4800 sounded like. I had a couple Pioneer Elites (yes I tend to change receivers alot) before that and I remember them having warmer sound. I think the TSC speakers coupled with a mid to lower end Denons privides a thinner sound that could make the midrange clarity of these kids of speakers become harsh. You could argue that, but I certainly think it's possible. I think I read someone owning some TSC towers with a Pioneer receiver and loving the sound. I don't know, maybe it shouldn't make that much of a difference. But again with how sensitive and varied everyone's sound tastes are, I would'nt rule out anything...

 

[bmwr75]

Yes, sound can be subjective for sure. I did talk to TSC and they stated that I should give more time to allow break-in. Whether the speakers need to break-in or my ears need to get use to the speakers, perhaps there will be an enjoyment convergence somewhere within the month, and maybe not.

Just to re-state - I don't like dark sounding speakers, nor do I like booming bass. There is a *balance* I'm looking for that I cannot describe in words. And that balance includes keeping things even as the volume goes up.

I may have mentioned a reference to a Fender Twin Reverb amp. Many players out there can tell you that it sounds sweet at low volume, but when you turn it up (yes it stays clean) the "shape" of the sound comes way up front and becomes very brassy. This is the best way I can describe what I'm hearing.

Thanks,

J

 

[bmwr75]

Bandphan,

I'm primarily a music listener, not so much into movies. The surround capabilities are great, don't get me wrong I like it and I can see why people like it.

My personal opinion is that a lot of new speakers are voiced so that they can perform double duty. Surround movie watching and music. Do I want a screening of "The Dark Knight" to sound like a listening session of Black Crowes "Shake your Money Maker" ? Of course not!

Movies are focused on the human voice - midrange - and if most speakers weren't voiced towards this, you wouldn't be able to hear the actors talk.

If put on a recording of Joe Pass' Virtuoso, will these speakers in thier current state sound like his acoutic guitar? Will the sound of his fingers on the fretboard squeak too loud? Should I expect the mids to jump out because that's the way music is supposed to sound in the aughts?

 

[Patrick_Wolf]

As one reviewer on AH says, if it's good for music then it will be good for movies too. As I think it should be. A good speaker should not be great for one source, poor for another. I guess what I'm saying is, I like accuracy.

 

[lsiberian]

Yes, sound can be subjective for sure. I did talk to TSC and they stated that I should give more time to allow break-in. Whether the speakers need to break-in or my ears need to get use to the speakers, perhaps there will be an enjoyment convergence somewhere within the month, and maybe not.

Just to re-state - I don't like dark sounding speakers, nor do I like booming bass. There is a *balance* I'm looking for that I cannot describe in words. And that balance includes keeping things even as the volume goes up.

I may have mentioned a reference to a Fender Twin Reverb amp. Many players out there can tell you that it sounds sweet at low volume, but when you turn it up (yes it stays clean) the "shape" of the sound comes way up front and becomes very brassy. This is the best way I can describe what I'm hearing.

Thanks,

J

I would try moving them closer to the wall if possible. Bad bass is usually helped by getting reinforcment from the wall. I put my speakers directly on the wall to get that wide bass throughout the room.

But if placement doesn't help it's time to ship them back don't wait around for the free trial to expire. If your doing stereo listening I suggest you look into the behringer 2030p monitors. They make a nice budget stereo pair. You will need a sub for them, but a Dayton gives a nice beat for 150.

As far as the accusations go. We get Trolls here often so we are always a little jumpy.

 

[griffinconst]

Yeah, don't take it personally....just make with the pictures.

 

[ace0001a]

I would say it's a necessity for speaker company to make speakers that sounds good in general and which is presumed to be in both music and movies. So you can't really fault them for that since home audio these days is more than just music. With that said, I honestly believe that if it sounds good for music, it should sound good for movies. That's also what the home audio specialty store guys tell you these days too. But I will say that to my ears, the sound characteristics that speaker companies build their speakers to these days is a little different than what I heard 10 years ago. As I mentioned before in listening to my favorite company's offerings (Paradigm), that even their latest speakers exhibit sound characterstics with what I would describe as an improved midrange clarity. When listening to the TSC TST3s, I got a very similar impression too. So I just think imaging and midrange clarity is what many speaker companies have focused on in recent years.

 

[bmwr75]

Thanks all for the responses. I can certainly understand your wariness due to trolls, so I'm not taking it personally!

It seems I'm leaning towards returning them, though I will give them another week. I'll also check out some of the speaker suggestions you have all made.

And yes, as I get older I do get crankier. If I had a cane, I would have been banging it on the ground and complaining about all these newfangled gadgets!

Bring back the manual slide graphic EQ's and EPI 100v's!!! And yes, I still do sometimes listen to vinyl.

 

[bmwr75]

So...

I am sending back the TST3's.

Can't say enough good stuff about the company's support, as I spoke personally to a manager there. Nice guy, pleasant and understanding.

These speaks are just not for me.

I've dug out my old EPI 100's and have ordered a woofer foam surround kit for these. There are a couple of good resources out there about what I think are the sound qualities I am looking for.

Check out www.humanspeakers.com and www.directacoustics.com . Humanspeakers made a statement about subwoofers that I find true - he stated that a properly designed speaker does not need a subwoofer to sound good. I agree!!

I was in Magnolia tonight, and there was not one speaker there , not a bookshelf or floorstander that sounded good without a sub.

I don't mean to stoke or rant, just stating my opinion. The only speaks that sounded ok were the DefTech floorstanders with built in powered woofers.

The DefTech bookshelf line all sounded tinny and thin without a sub. What good is that?! It gives new meaning to the term "component" systems. You really are buying your tweeter and midrange separate from your woofer. Sounds like gratuitous profit-mongering to me!!

 

[griffinconst]

Sorry to hear your speakers didn't grow on you. That's the chance one takes when ordering OL only.
Thanks for the links, we can use all the contacts and info we can get.
You said Magnolia didn't have anything you liked? Did you listen to Monitor Audio? I know my local Magnolia has them or did 6 months ago. Monitor RS8's had nice bass to my ears, nice everything actually. The RS6 seems to be very highly thought of as well.
I also listened to Martin Logan Preface which I liked, when I was in there last.
I'm not tryin to bust your b*lls or anything, I just wandered if you listened to the same ones I did and what you thought.
Also, my comment about the pictures was just that, we love pictures around here..... mmm pictures.

 

[ace0001a]

Wow, those EP100s look like a blast from the past: http://www.humanspeakers.com/e/epi100.htm

It's too bad the TST3s didn't work out for you. But I do understand we each have our own tastes for sound. What I will say is that I really don't think TSC speakers (particularly the towers) sound good with a Denon receiver. Since TSC speakers in general seem to be optimized for midrange clarity, mating them with a receiver that itself also emphasizes midrange clarity could be overkill. I know because that's what I demoed my TST3s with is my former Denon AVR-3808ci. While I certainly understood what all the rave was about the speakers, I find that the thin sound from my Denon receiver just didn't help the speakers any. The same case was when I was using my old Paradigm Monitor 7s with the Denon too as I remembered the sound to be more full when I used them with a Yamaha or Pioneer receiver.

To me, I think forum member Lord Of The Rings best describes receiver sound here when I asked him what he thought of Onkyo and other brands:

"Ok, How do I found my Onkyo receivers (876 & 805) compared to the warm sound (in general, not the new ICE power design) of Pioneer, or the Mid emphasis and reserved sound of Denon receivers (even bordering on thin, lacking some meat in the lows and also in the highs), to the fuller and cleaner sound from the Yamahas, with that more natural and well balanced sound from across the frequencies, nice lows, very articulate and clear mids, and a quasi sweet high end (still talking about Yamaha here in general). My Marantz is warm too, with a full sound and more relaxed compared to any other receiver. The sound is musical, inviting anf float very nicely, with a nice and wide soundstage and some nice depth too. I also found the Yamaha adds height too (must be those two front presence speakers ). Ok, let's not get lost here, I said that I will be very brief. Now, my Onkyos? The sound is clear, clean, neutral, punchy (so is the Yamaha for the punch), hard to describe at times, maybe because of that type of neutrality, where no specific frequencies are overemphasised. For me, it sounds right, powerful, dynamic and very pleasant with good articulation but lacking that last minute resolution. Maybe the Yamaha here is the winner for resolution that is natural. But the Denon and Marantz also have a decent dose of resolution. I must admit though, that to judge resolutioin properly, like any other audio attributes, a big influence comes from the recordings. But I'm just shooting here my overall impressions."

I've have since sold my Denon AVR-3808ci and got a deal on a Pioneer Elite SC-07 and I am so glad I did so. The output of my Paradigms are now again warm, smooth and full sound that the Pioneer amps so wonderfully produce that to me just wasn't there with the Denon. LOTR hit the nail on the head when he said "the Mid emphasis and reserved sound of Denon receivers (even bordering on thin, lacking some meat in the lows and also in the highs)". The only Denon I've owned that I really loved the sound of was the AVR-4800. Sadly, I think the only model you can get that kind of sound from now is with a 5000 series and I just don't have the money for one of those. I don't think I'll be going back to Denon anytime soon.

With all that said, I do think the TSC towers would sound really good when mated with the right receiver. The TST3s probably arguably should have deep bass. I think the only speakers I that I've heard that I think sounds fairly good with a Denon receiver are Definitive Technology BP Towers. My buddy has BP10Bs and they get pretty low (they're rated down to 20hz). Still, I don't like the idea of having to find specific speakers to sound good for a receiver. I'm a compulsive upgrader and I've gone through around 8 receivers in the past 10 years. The brand of receivers to me that have good overall sound characteristics that sound good with most speakers are Yamaha and Pioneer in my experience. Anyway, I recommend that you consider changing receivers as well to find that full "smooth" sound that you're looking for with modern speakers.

 

[lsiberian]

Wow, those EP100s look like a blast from the past: http://www.humanspeakers.com/e/epi100.htm

It's too bad the TST3s didn't work out for you. But I do understand we each have our own tastes for sound. What I will say is that I really don't think TSC speakers (particularly the towers) sound good with a Denon receiver. Since TSC speakers in general seem to be optimized for midrange clarity, mating them with a receiver that itself also emphasizes midrange clarity could be overkill. I know because that's what I demoed my TST3s with is my former Denon AVR-3808ci. While I certainly understood what all the rave was about the speakers, I find that the thin sound from my Denon receiver just didn't help the speakers any. The same case was when I was using my old Paradigm Monitor 7s with the Denon too as I remembered the sound to be more full when I used them with a Yamaha or Pioneer receiver.

To me, I think forum member Lord Of The Rings best describes receiver sound here when I asked him what he thought of Onkyo and other brands:

"Ok, How do I found my Onkyo receivers (876 & 805) compared to the warm sound (in general, not the new ICE power design) of Pioneer, or the Mid emphasis and reserved sound of Denon receivers (even bordering on thin, lacking some meat in the lows and also in the highs), to the fuller and cleaner sound from the Yamahas, with that more natural and well balanced sound from across the frequencies, nice lows, very articulate and clear mids, and a quasi sweet high end (still talking about Yamaha here in general). My Marantz is warm too, with a full sound and more relaxed compared to any other receiver. The sound is musical, inviting anf float very nicely, with a nice and wide soundstage and some nice depth too. I also found the Yamaha adds height too (must be those two front presence speakers ). Ok, let's not get lost here, I said that I will be very brief. Now, my Onkyos? The sound is clear, clean, neutral, punchy (so is the Yamaha for the punch), hard to describe at times, maybe because of that type of neutrality, where no specific frequencies are overemphasised. For me, it sounds right, powerful, dynamic and very pleasant with good articulation but lacking that last minute resolution. Maybe the Yamaha here is the winner for resolution that is natural. But the Denon and Marantz also have a decent dose of resolution. I must admit though, that to judge resolutioin properly, like any other audio attributes, a big influence comes from the recordings. But I'm just shooting here my overall impressions."

I've have since sold my Denon AVR-3808ci and got a deal on a Pioneer Elite SC-07 and I am so glad I did so. The output of my Paradigms are now again warm, smooth and full sound that the Pioneer amps so wonderfully produce that to me just wasn't there with the Denon. LOTR hit the nail on the head when he said "the Mid emphasis and reserved sound of Denon receivers (even bordering on thin, lacking some meat in the lows and also in the highs)". The only Denon I've owned that I really loved the sound of was the AVR-4800. Sadly, I think the only model you can get that kind of sound from now is with a 5000 series and I just don't have the money for one of those. I don't think I'll be going back to Denon anytime soon.

With all that said, I do think the TSC towers would sound really good when mated with the right receiver. The TST3s probably arguably should have deep bass. I think the only speakers I that I've heard that I think sounds fairly good with a Denon receiver are Definitive Technology BP Towers. My buddy has BP10Bs and they get pretty low (they're rated down to 20hz). Still, I don't like the idea of having to find specific speakers to sound good for a receiver. I'm a compulsive upgrader and I've gone through around 8 receivers in the past 10 years. The brand of receivers to me that have good overall sound characteristics that sound good with most speakers are Yamaha and Pioneer in my experience. Anyway, I recommend that you consider changing receivers as well to find that full "smooth" sound that you're looking for with modern speakers.

Are you going to give us your FR graphs to prove these statements?

These are a some very tall claims, but I've found most of these ideas to be mostly psychological. I suggest not switching reciever brands for a sound. Solid State amps are demonstrated to be indiscernable in DBT by skeptics and believers. Tube amps can have audible distortion. But many amps are made by the same company anyway. Rebranding is very common in electronics. That's why a Vizio and Emerson TV are the same LCD.

Put your efforts into the speakers.

I think we may need to talk about a budget jump, but look for a revel dealer and listen to the concerta series. These are rebranded Infinity Beta's according to the guy who designed the Beta series.

Also check out the KEF iQ series of speakers.

 

[bmwr75]

Change receivers! O man - I don't think I could stomach that grief. It took me too much time to get to know the menus on this one. Here's my old codger rant: I sure miss the separate Bass and Treble knobs and tha ability to pipe outputs through the Tape Monitor to a graphic eq. I know that's just not possible in a budget receiver nowadays, but I can dream.

I never listened to the Yamaha receivers - perhaps I should have given them a try. In any case, my lady would kill me if I mentioned that we should look at another receiver. She is in agreement about the speaker issue, but I think mentioning a new receiver, espescially after we bought this one a few months ago, would push 'er over the edge!!

 

[bmwr75]

Monitor Audio RS8? Doesn't ring a bell - I don't think I saw them there .. Next time I'm in there I'll look for them though -- thanks.

 

[allargon]

So...

I am sending back the TST3's.

Can't say enough good stuff about the company's support, as I spoke personally to a manager there. Nice guy, pleasant and understanding.

These speaks are just not for me.

I've dug out my old EPI 100's and have ordered a woofer foam surround kit for these. There are a couple of good resources out there about what I think are the sound qualities I am looking for.

Check out www.humanspeakers.com and www.directacoustics.com . Humanspeakers made a statement about subwoofers that I find true - he stated that a properly designed speaker does not need a subwoofer to sound good. I agree!!

I was in Magnolia tonight, and there was not one speaker there , not a bookshelf or floorstander that sounded good without a sub.

I don't mean to stoke or rant, just stating my opinion. The only speaks that sounded ok were the DefTech floorstanders with built in powered woofers.

The DefTech bookshelf line all sounded tinny and thin without a sub. What good is that?! It gives new meaning to the term "component" systems. You really are buying your tweeter and midrange separate from your woofer. Sounds like gratuitous profit-mongering to me!!

You seem to really like bass and notice midrange.

How long ago did Human make that statement? Nowadays with great rooms open to the 2nd floor and Blu-Ray tracks w/ 16Hz booms (Batman Begins and Transformers), that whole floorstanders w/ no subs argument tends to bottom out. (Pun intended!)

If I were looking at speakers for home theater I would almost care less about how much bass they had and really look at the midrange and higher frequencies. IMHO, a good sub will handle the lower frequencies for both HT and music quite well. But, that's just MHO.

Are you more of a two channel guy? There's nothing wrong w/ that. Moreover, I'm glad you found speakers you like--which is really what it's all about.

 

[agarwalro]

BMWR75/ J...,

The topic has meandered a bunch, but I was not able to discern if you did the basic checks to ensure the setup is correct. To unequivocally inform us can you confirm and respond to these...

1) There is no apparant manufacturing defect? (something like, playing bass heavy material, like techno, still produces no movement in the woofers, etc).
1) Is your wiring correct, no out of phase connections (Running Audessy would have caught this, but still...)
2) In the 1909, the speakers are not set to small (Again with Audessy, it should have automatically set them to Large, but still...)
3) (if using analog connections) Your source does not do bass management or is turned off (a non issue if you are using optical or coax)
5) Try to determine if your listening position is not in a room null arrising from standing waves.

I highly suspect that the last one is the culpret and it can be easily be determined by ear. Sinply move around in the room, if the bass response seems to be better at certain location when compared to the listening position, you have your culpret.

Of course, all that said, it could simply be that the speakers are not the ones for you...

 

[ace0001a]

Are you going to give us your FR graphs to prove these statements?

These are a some very tall claims, but I've found most of these ideas to be mostly psychological. I suggest not switching reciever brands for a sound. Solid State amps are demonstrated to be indiscernable in DBT by skeptics and believers. Tube amps can have audible distortion. But many amps are made by the same company anyway. Rebranding is very common in electronics. That's why a Vizio and Emerson TV are the same LCD.

Put your efforts into the speakers.

I think we may need to talk about a budget jump, but look for a revel dealer and listen to the concerta series. These are rebranded Infinity Beta's according to the guy who designed the Beta series.

Also check out the KEF iQ series of speakers.

Just like LOTR, none of what I said is based off of any measuring equipment other than my ears. It is fine that your opinion leads your beliefs that anyone who experiences such things has it related to being psychological. Now if this debate were about say speaker wire, I can see where that arguement would apply. But having owned so many receivers through the years (like LOTR), I know my ears. And just like speakers, receivers, their circuitry, programming and amps do effect the characteristic of sound. Even if you put in the arguement that all hifidelity equipment is the same, the way the manufacturer implements it will vary in the performance. You can can say that an Emerson and a Vizio is the same LCD or Plasma panel, but whoever does a better job in the electronics and programming of its operation internal software will yield a better performing product. Anyway, I'm not here to debate and you can believe what you want to believe. I'm not here to disrespect anyone point of view. But simply put, I only know what my ears tell me. To me, the difference in performance between the Denon AVR-3808ci and my Pioneer Elite SC-07 is very noticeable. It's not day and night (more like early morning to afternoon), but it's very noticeable to me.

 

[bandphan]

Just like LOTR, none of what I said is based off of any measuring equipment other than my ears. It is fine that your opinion leads your beliefs that anyone who experiences such things has it related to being psychological. Now if this debate were about say speaker wire, I can see where that arguement would apply. But having owned so many receivers through the years (like LOTR), I know my ears. And just like speakers, receivers, their circuitry, programming and amps do effect the characteristic of sound. Even if you put in the arguement that all hifidelity equipment is the same, the way the manufacturer implements it will vary in the performance. You can can say that an Emerson and a Vizio is the same LCD or Plasma panel, but whoever does a better job in the electronics and programming of its operation internal software will yield a better performing product. Anyway, I'm not here to debate and you can believe what you want to believe. I'm not here to disrespect anyone point of view. But simply put, I only know what my ears tell me. To me, the difference in performance between the Denon AVR-3808ci and my Pioneer Elite SC-07 is very noticeable. It's not day and night (more like early morning to afternoon), but it's very noticeable to me.

FYIY i wouldnt be using LOTR as my reference point

 

[ace0001a]

FYIY i wouldnt be using LOTR as my reference point

I'm not going to get into whatever you guys have going on. But honestly I did find his description of Denon receiver sound to be almost exact to how I feel about it and that's why I used what he said as reference.