Trying to understand AUDIO RESOLUTION and how it relates to our disc players

[timetohunt]

Great information in this thread. I just moved up a couple rungs in the ladder of digital audio knowledge (and I still have a long way to go). Thanks a bunch to all posters on this. It really helped.

 

[detroit1]

Sound Quality thru Digital Outs

I noticed people writing that the sound quality of different dvd players is the same thru digital outputs

That is FALSE, I just compared the sound from my Arcam DV79 vs a Toshiba HD DVD player. I played 5.1 music DD thru there
I was hoping it would sound the same; WRONG
The Arcam had much better bass and the music hit harder and was more powerful.
Most likely this is because the Arcam has much better Audio section in it than the Toshiba player
I used NAD t773 Receiver and listed to both at the same volume

as I mentioned, I was hoping it would sound the same but the Arcam was much better.

I am wondering if anyone has experience listening to the OPPO Dvd players with level 2 mods on them. I was thinking about those but I have never heard them

 

[mtrycrafts]

I noticed people writing that the sound quality of different dvd players is the same thru digital outputs

That is FALSE, I just compared the sound from my Arcam DV79 vs a Toshiba HD DVD player. I played 5.1 music DD thru there
I was hoping it would sound the same; WRONG
The Arcam had much better bass and the music hit harder and was more powerful.
Most likely this is because the Arcam has much better Audio section in it than the Toshiba player
I used NAD t773 Receiver and listed to both at the same volume

as I mentioned, I was hoping it would sound the same but the Arcam was much better.

I am wondering if anyone has experience listening to the OPPO Dvd players with level 2 mods on them. I was thinking about those but I have never heard them

Well, your perception may have mislead you to the facts. Well known that senses can be fooled rather easy.
Your protocol was at fault.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you have not checked out The Audio Critic, you must do so.

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Web_Zine/

Basically, within specs, most CD players, DACs, Amplifiers, and Preamplifiers will sound the same whether they cost $6,000 or $300.

 

[detroit1]

reply

there was no mistake. Anyone could heard the difference
like I said, I wish they sounded the same because the Arcam is worth a lot of money in re-sale.
the Toshiba sound was thin compared to the Arcam

If you ask most people on AVS or other High End forums, they would all agree with me.

I am wondering if anyone on this thread has ACTUALLY done the test I did using High End vs low prices players

 

[MDS]

there was no mistake. Anyone could heard the difference
If you ask most people on AVS or other High End forums, they would all agree with me.
I am wondering if anyone on this thread has ACTUALLY done the test I did using High End vs low prices players

Everyone that is adamant that there are great differences say the exact same thing you do. If you really want to reduce your credibility you could add 'Even my wife/girlfriend/mother-in-law who doesn't even care about audio could tell the difference'.

 

[davidtwotrees]

If you have not checked out The Audio Critic, you must do so.

The Critic is really something. I had never heard of him until coming here. Funny, when I first started posting here, I also subscribed to Stereophile. The articles in Stereophile can be downright funny. If a car salesman gave you the same level of spiel on a car as they do on Stereo gear, you would tell them to drop dead. The Critic calls a spade a spade.
(Does anyone here own the Orion's he [TAC]espouses?)

 

[no. 5]

detroit1; there is no doubt that you heard something, the doubt is that there was a deference to be heard.

The sense of hearing is a remarkably sensitive thing, and it can detect small changes, however, it is not infallible, our memory for accurate recollection of sounds is fairly short lived, and the sense of hearing has a great propensity to be fooled.
I've dabbled with pro audio since I was twelve, on more then one occasion the whole crew (myself included) heard something that wasn't really there.

Furthermore, when the digital out is used, the player isn't really doing a whole lot; just sending the data off the disc to the receiver for it to do the D/A conversion, so it is unlikely that a change in player would result in a change in sound quality.

 

[no. 5]

The articles in Stereophile can be downright funny.

mmm... chocolaty midrange....

Stereophile dose provide extensive measurements of speakers, which is usfull... just ignore the articles.

 

[detroit1]

reply

Hey No. 5. thanks for writing in. I thought Before I did the test, that it should sound the same; as I mentioned I was hoping it would but I am almost positive that there was a difference. It seems like if you use the digital outs or HDMI outs you should get similar sound
I also by the way, just ordered an Oppo 970 DVD player and am going to do the same test against my Arcam DV79 when I get it
the main point being that I can sell my Arcam for a good amount
If I can get the same sound for a fraction I'm all for it

Has anyone had any experience with fully modified Oppo DVD Players?
it costs between 800 and 1,500 to have it modded

I would love to hear opinions on that

 

[MDS]

Has anyone had any experience with fully modified Oppo DVD Players?it costs between 800 and 1,500 to have it modded

So you want to take a $200 DVD player and spend an additional $1000 or more to 'mod' it? If you really believe that there are huge audible differences, based on price, then just buy a more expensive player in the first place. You would think the Arcam that costs a whole lot more already has circuitry that would be equivalent to this proposed modification for the Oppo.

Now ask yourself, if the people selling the 'mod' for a thousand bucks know so much about improving the sound of a DVD player, why don't they just make an entire player and price it very high so everyone will think it is a phenomenal player? The answer is simple: 'tweaks' of a dubious nature are far easier to sell to those who fall for those kinds of things.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... The articles in Stereophile can be downright funny.(Does anyone here own the Orion's he [TAC]espouses?)

I read a couple of those in the past but now if I want something funny, I read the comics

 

[mtrycrafts]

'Even my wife/girlfriend/mother-in-law who doesn't even care about audio could tell the difference'.

From the kitchen, and even while driving up the driveway

 

[mtrycrafts]

there was no mistake. Anyone could heard the difference
like I said, I wish they sounded the same because the Arcam is worth a lot of money in re-sale.
the Toshiba sound was thin compared to the Arcam

If you ask most people on AVS or other High End forums, they would all agree with me.

I am wondering if anyone on this thread has ACTUALLY done the test I did using High End vs low prices players

Then, you checked for precise levels from each player, used a double blind protocol, randomized the players and your score was what?
And, you specked the players to make sure they were within design specs if your score was statistically significant?

No, audio science as well as human psychology has come a long way since the industrial revolution to know that most likely your perception was unreliable at best in what you posted.

You may want to expand and Google perception, human bias, audible illusions as a starter.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that sound level matching is the most important factor in comparing components. I watched the Matrix Trilogy HDDVD, Underworld Evolution BD, Hellboy BD, and Apocalypto BD on my HDDVD and BD players in the last week. It seems like all of them had different sound levels because I had to turn my volumes up and down on my preamplifiers so that the sounds were not too loud or too quiet.

So the sound levels are different among all the movies and among all the sound formats (Dolby Digital, TruHD, DTS, DTS-HD, etc.). I'm sure the sound levels are also different among all the CDs, DVD-Audios, and SACDs.

Just because it's louder, doesn't make it better.

 

[Starmax]

My Brain Hurts...

Having read everything in this thread up to this point, I've ended up with the cognitive equivalent of an ice cream headache...I still don't clearly understand the various nuances of the receiver/player relationship. But that's just me...I'm a right-brained spy in a house of engineers. At the risk of hi-jacking an impending pissing contest between "detroit 1" and everyone else here (which wouldn't be a bad thing), perhaps someone can explain why SACDs and DVD-As sound better to me when listening via the Analog Multi Channel outputs on my Denon 3910 connected to the EXT. IN on my Denon 3805, than when listening with Denon Link III? Denon Link sounds good but analog sound great. Why is this? I thought digital had whiter whites & brighter brights, etc. when it came to 5.1/7.1 surround. I recently replaced my 3805 with a 5805 and haven't bothered connecting with multi channel cables...mainly 'cause it would be a pain in the butt and I am happy with the D-Link (still using my 3910). I can already hear most of you saying "give it a try and let your ears decide," but before I do, is there any theoretical possibility that analog might trump digital with the 5805/3910 combo as it does with the 3805/3910?

 

[MDS]

why SACDs and DVD-As sound better to me when listening via the Analog Multi Channel outputs on my Denon 3910 connected to the EXT. IN on my Denon 3805, than when listening with Denon Link III?

- It's possible that the player does a slightly better job of digital to analog conversion than the receiver.
- There is usually no bass management applied to the 5.1 analog inputs of the receiver. Your ears could prefer hearing it 'straight'.
- The player may have settings such as bass/treble/EQ or even level controls that alter the sound in a way that would not occur with the digital connection and you prefer it that way.

 

[Starmax]

Guess I need to hack my way through the electronic thicket in back of my component rack and plug-in some cables and hear for myself, huh? The AV5805 is way advanced over the AV3805 on almost every level, but I guess that still doesn't guarantee its digital sound is superior over analog multi channel.

 

[Geno]

From the kitchen, and even while driving up the driveway

I've tried comparing DVD-As and SACDs via Denon Link and Analog inputs. There was a small difference, but I didn't think one was superior - just different.
My dog, who was in the driveway licking himself, gave me a look that could only have meant he clearly heard the difference...

 

[obscbyclouds]

- It's possible that the player does a slightly better job of digital to analog conversion than the receiver.
- There is usually no bass management applied to the 5.1 analog inputs of the receiver. Your ears could prefer hearing it 'straight'.
- The player may have settings such as bass/treble/EQ or even level controls that alter the sound in a way that would not occur with the digital connection and you prefer it that way.

According to Oppo, my 981 does include BM via analog outputs. It's a non-adjustable 80hz x-over, but it does exist. I'm also able to change speaker level and distance fields in my reciever menu. All other fields/dsp modes are disabled.